Nobus3r1 Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 i think he should get a double jump... And a Sledge Feint. And a pony. Seriously though Tager's issues where painfully obvious in CT and now two revisions later none of them have been significantly addressed (i.e. crap mobility and crap normals). I don't see that changing.
Linear04 Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 how do you practise zoning well? like learning a keep out of x distance game from certain characters who do too well up close
Wutai_Shinobi Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 how do you practise zoning well? like learning a keep out of x distance game from certain characters who do too well up close Ooh, me me me :D I practice that the same way I practice footsies in any fighting game (that I'm taking seriously). Put the computer on a comfortable level, choose a good zoning move (good range, decent recovery, fast start-up; some mixture of these) and beat the opponent with just these moves. If you're feeling like you've got a good sense of the spacing, up the AI difficulty. AI is maxed? Practice on your newbie friends. Use to be that I'd beat weak GGXX players as Baiken using nothing other than jumping slash. I learned the changes in timing needed to counter hit with it while moving forward, back or staying neutral. If you're trying to learn with a projectile, you basically need to know how close you can allow your opponent before it's viable for him to punish the recovery of your move. Shoot from outside his jump in range and don't shoot recklessly if he can use a move to get through your projectile and hit you. Sometimes you may fireball spam until you confirm he's skilled/knowledgable enough to do that tho.
Lord Knight Posted February 4, 2011 Author Posted February 4, 2011 Hello LK, Thanks so much for providing your musings and contributions to the community, we need more strong players like yourself to help out to make this community to grow. speaking of strong players. in my area i have the good fortune and privelage to be near alot of strong players. when seshing with a player who is obviously levels above you, what is the most beneficial thing to take from that ass beating besides asking for advice? is there anything i should try to notice/learn, in game, while playing them? is there a process i can follow to improve more effectively in between sessions? side question: is there a thread that lists general techniques/option selects. such has chicken blocking, OS barrier/throw tech, and canceling landing frames with barrier. (i never knew about the landing thing until today after reading through this thread) Make it a 2 way interaction. Ask for advice, because whatever they tell you is probably what you should try to correct as soon as possible. Then while you're playing (or maybe in between games), try to think about what they are trying to do to you, and if you notice any big or subtle changes to how they react to what you do. This is really hard to do while you're actually playing, so you might want to do it in between matches, or even record your matches if possible. After you play, try to talk with them and ask them what you were doing well and what you were doing badly, and discuss anything you might've been puzzled about (why were they trying to do x, etc). Later on (especially if you recorded), you should think about the matchup/your play and think about how to change it. This last part is probably the most important - most people can't just come up with things on the spot, and if they do, they definitely aren't considering many possible counters. Remember, they aren't perfect either - don't get discouraged and don't think they are reading all your stuff all the time. As far as I know, there's no such thread on DL. And a pony. Seriously though Tager's issues where painfully obvious in CT and now two revisions later none of them have been significantly addressed (i.e. crap mobility and crap normals). I don't see that changing. People want a grappler that can pull people in to have more movement options? I wouldn't care if he got another move that added to his ground mobility, but outside of that . . . how do you practise zoning well? like learning a keep out of x distance game from certain characters who do too well up close This (as you probably already realized) is a matchup specific case. You have to first see what kind of tools your character has for neutral. If they are good enough that your opponent has to work hard to come in, then you should just play. If they have some tools to get around yours, that's when you need to work some counters. Make sure to try everything your character has! Obviously a simple answer is best, but if it takes something weird that you don't normally use, do it if it works. Test your answer in training mode, but preferably with a friend. It's hard to test neutral stuff with a dummy, and might not always be right. Of course, next time you play against that character, you should try it out too.
Mystic d Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 People still think Tager has crap normals? EDIT this is dacid oops
Nobus3r1 Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 People want a grappler that can pull people in to have more movement options? I wouldn't care if he got another move that added to his ground mobility, but outside of that . . . Personally I don't think a double jump would significantly affect more than a handful of matchups (vs. zoners) in any measurable way. Increasing ground mobility would also be a start. He is pretty much the least mobile character of any archetype relative to the system under which he operates that I am aware of in any fighting game. That said my preference would be for normal moves that could actually intimidate a girl scout troop.
natearistata Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 if all you're doing is looking at Tager's normals alone and not thinking of how they mesh with the purpose of the character, sure, Tager's normals aren't awful.
rei-Scarred Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Fuck 6A super armor, they should give all his D moves super armor including spark bolt.
A.X.I.S. Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 LK how do you feel about Arakune curse mix up? Do you find it hard to block? Easy to get by? Do you put the controller down and let them have the round?
TD Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 l meant to say thanks lk for always answering my question, sometimes reposting slips my mind. o.o l have a silly question for you, l'm sure sometimes you'll play an experienced matchup but suddenly react to some situations like, 'omg l gotta mash!!!'. so how do you react to this, when you know already how to get past/defend against the situation normally?
WolfCrimson Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 You can cancel landing recovery into barrier block. I thought this was common knowledge? How do I go about doing this? I tried it out in Training mode with Ragna's inferno divider>axe kick (he has landing frames after axe kick), but the landing recovery doesn't get canceled. Is there a specific timing for it?
Nakkiel Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 It only works for jumping "landing recovery". You cannot avoid or get rid of a specific move's landing recovery.
Eclipse Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 LK, what do you think of Hazama's playstyle and tier placement in CS2? And what could I do to improve my CS1 Hazama, knowing his changes in CS2? (Ex: Should I practice different blockstrings? Change my focus from mixup to zoning, etc?)
Lord Knight Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 LK how do you feel about Arakune curse mix up? Do you find it hard to block? Easy to get by? Do you put the controller down and let them have the round? Don't give up! I can't stand being put in that situation, its really bad. On top of that, his mixup is pretty much unseeable 50/50 that leads to huge damage. However, I don't just surrender to him. It's really annoying dealing with Arakune since all he has to do is make you block D a couple of times. l meant to say thanks lk for always answering my question, sometimes reposting slips my mind. o.o l have a silly question for you, l'm sure sometimes you'll play an experienced matchup but suddenly react to some situations like, 'omg l gotta mash!!!'. so how do you react to this, when you know already how to get past/defend against the situation normally? What do you mean? I want to clarify what you mean by "an experienced matchup". Do you mean a player who's experienced in the matchup? If so, that kind of situation shouldn't happen. If you already know how to react in that situation, you should be fine. LK, what do you think of Hazama's playstyle and tier placement in CS2? And what could I do to improve my CS1 Hazama, knowing his changes in CS2? (Ex: Should I practice different blockstrings? Change my focus from mixup to zoning, etc?) Any CS1 Hazama players with poor mobility (there are a lot of them) are going to have some problems. I haven't seen you play or anything, but an easy way to prepare for CS2 is simply getting used to using your chains and movement with purpose. Many Hazama players tend to use his chains without really paying attention too much to their opponent, making their movement poor and their approach telegraphed. Although he's a high damage character in CS2, these guys won't stand a chance.
Dacidbro Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 AXIS, depending on your character, there are a couple things that can help a lot with dealing with curse. Unfortunately, I don't really think Tager has any of them. Characters that have a counter assault with strong pushback can have a much easier time with curse in general, so if you save your meter for that situation you'll get out more 'unscathed'. Ragna and other characters with great DPs can reaction DP to certain set ups to make the curse weaker (You can IB Magna Tech wheel as Tager, pretty high risk but what are you risking compared to eventually eating a jC or 2C anyway (Obviously dont try it too often, as there are a TON of traps in curse for people mashing reversal)) Also, save your bursts for the combos that will kill you or gold bursts that are relatively guaranteed to win you a round, imo. If you're really quick on your feet, you can find gaps in curse where a gold burst can net you the win.
TD Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 ok, lets say you know ragna up and down. you know all his strings or w/e so you play a local ragna and he's putting the hardcore pressure on dat ass. lt's nothing you're not aware of though, but suddenly you look at your life and realize you gotta get this guy off of you. was there ever a time where you feel the pressure and feel like you haaave to get out now? what did you do and what happened?
Lord Knight Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 ok, lets say you know ragna up and down. you know all his strings or w/e so you play a local ragna and he's putting the hardcore pressure on dat ass. lt's nothing you're not aware of though, but suddenly you look at your life and realize you gotta get this guy off of you. was there ever a time where you feel the pressure and feel like you haaave to get out now? what did you do and what happened? I would wait to see an opportunity that I recognized and escape that way. If the Ragna was just random, that's when I'd just CA/reversal/burst.
TD Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 aah ok.. yes random people are the best l suppose... thanks for the answer.
Skye Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 As an Arakune player, the primary status quo of my character, allegedly, is to flail about and dodge everything/be hard to catch/hit/etc, I've always found that prospect to be gimmicky and really takes the fight nowhere, above all, vs better players, they always know how to maintain that perfect distance and stay neutral until they find a chance to punish any zoning attempt, which are all slow as hell and a green light for midscreen punish. All and all, I find the "dodge and repeat" method to be thoroughly unreliable unless I'm fighting Tager. Not to say that I don't dodge attacks, but there are times where I decide to stay and block, try and punish something or get offensive. That said, my first question is: How advantageous is that method for Arakune? My second question is: Is my alternative method any good? (To elaborate) Is it holding me back? Am I approaching the first method wrong?
Eclipse Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Interesting and good to know. Hazama seems to be more high damage off of Jayoku combos, or hardly any damage period. Occasionally some moderate damage in the corner. Anyways, thanks for the advice, I appreciate it.
A.X.I.S. Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Don't give up! I can't stand being put in that situation, its really bad. On top of that, his mixup is pretty much unseeable 50/50 that leads to huge damage. However, I don't just surrender to him. It's really annoying dealing with Arakune since all he has to do is make you block D a couple of times. Really? maybe its because I spent so much time fighting Arakune that curse mix up doesn't seem so bad, I must admit the invisible teleport's can get annoying if your not careful, I'd like to say that I find Litchi's Daisharin oki way more intimidating. AXIS, depending on your character, there are a couple things that can help a lot with dealing with curse. Unfortunately, I don't really think Tager has any of them. Characters that have a counter assault with strong pushback can have a much easier time with curse in general, so if you save your meter for that situation you'll get out more 'unscathed'. Ragna and other characters with great DPs can reaction DP to certain set ups to make the curse weaker (You can IB Magna Tech wheel as Tager, pretty high risk but what are you risking compared to eventually eating a jC or 2C anyway (Obviously dont try it too often, as there are a TON of traps in curse for people mashing reversal)) Also, save your bursts for the combos that will kill you or gold bursts that are relatively guaranteed to win you a round, imo. If you're really quick on your feet, you can find gaps in curse where a gold burst can net you the win. Dacid this was actually a damn good reply. Tager has IB 720 and CA (lol his CA is so bad.) The biggest problem I face in this match is punishing J.B because there is cases in which Tager can't punish without IB and for Tager to really survive curse then he really really really has to know Arakune's gattlings, normally I can get by with 3-5k done to me on curse but there are times where I just get bad luck (yes I said that.) and eat 10k anyways. This is how I see Arakune: if you get cursed and you lose from a hit that leads to massive damage then its badluck, its no other way to explain it, you were just had the misfortune of eating 8k+ try again later. The biggest hurdle is blocking his overheads on reaction instead of assuming he is doing it once you learn that then you won't eat 10k off 2C, then you gotta worry about j.C....I don't even know how I block that. Perhaps I am doing something wrong or the Ara's I play is doing something wrong because Ara's curse mix up doesn't annoy me, its how fast he can get me there if I am not careful.
SolheartStud Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 As a Ragna player I would like to know if theres anything you think I could still get out of CS1 to be prepared for CS2 besides match-up expierience. If you could answer this question I would appreciate it. Thanks LK.
huey253 Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 LK, if i post a match video here, would you give me tips/critque/advice for improvement? if not, i think a thread should be made :3 thanks, huey25free :3
Dacidbro Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Tager has incredible difficulty avoiding being cursed. Things that will help you win the neutral game is charging sparkbolt if he lets you, reading 2D and sledging it BEFORE the first hit (Bad read is 100% curse, so be careful..), and just in general not pushing buttons if there's no read attached. Gotta 2C the jB if it was sloppily done, and once you have meter magna tech the tight ones. Good luck, worst case wait for CS2 lol, this is one of the dumbest matchups.
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