severin Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 As much as I love wading through the same sort of discussion in every gameplay thread, sometimes I there was a thread in the gameplay discussion forum where we could ask a respected player, maybe LordKnight, questions, and he would respond to them.
Dacidbro Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 I actually do play Tager, and I know just how bad he is, and I know his buffs to the next game inside and out. I also know that the risk reward of this matchup is going to be much, much better than it was in CS1. I think everyone who thinks it's going to be worse are out of their minds, truthfully. I don't understand how a matchup could ever get worse than CS1 Tager V Arakune, where one incorrect guess is literally usually a loss (This is not at all the case with CS2 Ara V Tager; isn't that already better?) Maybe I'm missing something, but I've thoroughly studied both characters. Arakune's defensive options being sharply nerfed was a huge hit, IMHO, and it's something I don't see most people factoring. Severin, I understand. Getting the same angry negative response in every thread, despite trying to be helpful, gets to me eventually. I'll stop now.
mAc Chaos Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 I think everyone who thinks it's going to be worse are out of their minds, truthfully. I don't understand how a matchup could ever get worse than CS1 Tager V Arakune, where one incorrect guess is literally usually a loss (This is not at all the case with CS2 Ara V Tager; isn't that already better?) CT Tager VS CT Arakune? Or CT Rachel or Nu. Or CT Carl.
zeth07 Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 As much as I love wading through the same sort of discussion in every gameplay thread, sometimes I there was a thread in the gameplay discussion forum where we could ask a respected player, maybe LordKnight, questions, and he would respond to them. I may not be a respected player, but you should've seen the reply I gave huey after he asked for "help" from those videos. Unfortunately because of the current conversation, I just PM'd it to him instead. And the fact that it was insanely long... Still waiting to see what LK says in response to huey because I'm sure I could use the advice myself.
natearistata Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 I will say the same exact thing I said when you told me Tager was better; better does not mean good. No, Tager v Arakune is not getting worse. Nobody has said that. Yet it will remain one of the worst and most painful match-ups in the game, and it's not like getting 8k in curse instead of 11k is extremely helpful to Tager. Anyway, this is clogging up an otherwise useful thread with a lot of unnecessary posts, soooo...I'm done.
Dacidbro Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Actually many, many people have said that, and that's what I was arguing against.
Rhiya Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 This doesn't exactly fall under gameplay, but I figured I'd ask anyways. Advice on starting up a community/scene from what seems like scratch? I'm at university atm and that's sort of where I'd like to start some stuff up, if that changes/helps anything
Lord Knight Posted February 8, 2011 Author Posted February 8, 2011 I know it's cool to troll Dacid or whatever. . . But he offers a perspective rather different than my own, so don't write it off so fast. That's part of the point of this thread. Anyways just watched the vid. I'm not an expert Bang or anything, so I'll just post what I liked and didn't like, hopefully you can get something out of it. Liked: -Good use of IB jump. -Mixup was pretty on point. -Defense was good. Didn't like: -5B use was pretty poor overall imo -Way too much airthrow -Offense was too passive I felt like you played with too much fear. Bang relies on his wild factor to win. If their defense is stronger than normal, use command grab more or be more random with your mixup period. Also I think you got ch'd out of airthrow in places where jA or jB would have probably won.
FlyingVe Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Advice on starting up a community/scene from what seems like scratch? I'm at university atm and that's sort of where I'd like to start some stuff up, if that changes/helps anything Actually, now is a really good time to try and start a scene because of MvC3 coming out. One of the biggest problems in getting people to play a FG with you is often how much better you will be than the learners. As helpful as you can be, it's no fun to get thwumped over and over. If you learn a game together it's much more likely that people will want to play. MvC3 can be that game, and with such simple controls and recognizable characters you can get people to try it really easy. Then once they get used to the whole FG thing, you can introduce them to BB, MB, SF, or whatever. I'm sure LK will have more (better) advice, but I wanted to point out the opportunity. I'm gonna try and get more people around here hooked on FG's.
Osuna Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Actually f of g was something people just freaked out about. I hate Arakune, but I'm going to wait some more before commenting on him.That makes sense, it is still early. I've seen you talk about hating arakune once or twice before. I think maybe it came up as a match up you hate once? Do you mind elaborating on that? I mean, I know why a lot of people hate him, but I would think you might have some insight into Ara's character that I wouldn't from your experience. Or maybe it's just same old same old. @dacid As a former member of a debate team (Before anyone thinks I'm bragging or something I was terrible at it) I'm kinda offended that you've made such horrible arguments this whole time and then invoked straw man to defend yourself. You also kept changing your supporting arguments and even ended up on the better risk reward as a result of Ara's nerfing, which I had already brought up when I was saying the match up wasn't necessarily worse. This whole thing started when you made a post, skye disagreed and said the match up got worse, and some tagers popped up to say 6A isn't all that great so far. Note, only one person said the match up got worse and it was an ara player so he wasn't exactly being pessimistic. Then you went on about how Incredibly strong 6A should be against ara. People contended, with many examples of how 6A when matched up against ara's moves just straight up loses. Then your stance changes to, certain things Could be very strong, give it some time. And all the time you're changing what we're allowed to talk about. Can't speculate. But you are too. Well, mine is more likely so only likely speculation is allowed. Ours is pretty likely too. Examples examples. You can't speculate. You already said that one. Then you can only speculate if it is optimistic, because everyone's already giving up on the whole match up.<-strawman But the one that said that was Skye, the tager mains didn't say the match got worse.
Lord Knight Posted February 8, 2011 Author Posted February 8, 2011 Like Chou said, Arakune is one chance man. Litchi might be touch of death, but Arakune is block of death. . . blocking D a couple of times leads to curse, I really can't stand that. In addition, 3F jump makes some stuff way too annoying to deal with, and his mobility is way up there. I wouldn't mind him this version, except his curse damage output is fucked up.
Dacidbro Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Osuna; if this was an official debate, I would have presented everything together. However, this is not an official debate, and I didn't use any logical fallacies anyway. All of my presented arguments were fair, and when they were challenged I added more supporting arguments to why the matchup probably doesn't suck as bad. I never said 6A and XYH 720 were godhand, definitely not, I said they were tricks that could help. Then when everyone just said "No you just don't know" And told me a hundred things I already knew I got a bit touchy. Anyway, I'm glad you know how to debate. If you want to have an official structured debate about this somewhere else I'd be glad to contend with you.
Chris Chaos Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 OK, i've been trying to get used to playing BlazBlue offline since I've gain some bad habits that I know I need to change. But I had a discussion with a certain individual that told me that a certain move I use with my main (Jin), is an extreme netplay tactic but I disagree. Now asking seriously: Is using Jin's 2.A a netplay tactic?
Romeyurhomey Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 LK, Whenever I bring up BB in a conversation with friends, they downplay it as an anime fighter that is just based on combos(because I play litchi). What rebuttal I can give that can make my argument stronger? Also are you still coming to FL in the spring?
Lord Knight Posted February 8, 2011 Author Posted February 8, 2011 OK, i've been trying to get used to playing BlazBlue offline since I've gain some bad habits that I know I need to change. But I had a discussion with a certain individual that told me that a certain move I use with my main (Jin), is an extreme netplay tactic but I disagree. Now asking seriously: Is using Jin's 2.A a netplay tactic? It depends on how its used. 2A is a legit anti-air, and it's a good pressure tool, as well as being useful for TRM. I can't really think of a "netplay tactic" that goes with 2A, lol. LK, Whenever I bring up BB in a conversation with friends, they downplay it as an anime fighter that is just based on combos(because I play litchi). What rebuttal I can give that can make my argument stronger? Also are you still coming to FL in the spring? Just call SF an anime fighter, lol. Honestly though, BB is about having a strong neutral game, because the rewards for getting hit are pretty strong across the board. "Footsies" (even though they don't always take place on the ground) is equally important. I'm still coming.
A.X.I.S. Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Are you guys still arguing about Tager vs Arakune? The fuck is wrong with you guys? The match up didn't get worse. The match up will never be as bad as CT where being your character gets you cursed and zoned to death. 6A can work on Arakune if he is magnetized and he is trying to set stuff up, it can shit on his zoning. Tagers 6A is about 15F in CS2, its hella faster than CS1! Ara is not gonna 2C it on reaction . Yes Ara is a more trifling character this time around but if you was doing this match up right in CS1 then there is only a couple of new things to look at. Learn, Adjust, and Apply. Ve and Osuna I love you guys but...come the fuck on its Dacid. Dacid that match up is bad...possibly Tager's second worst match up in CS1 but you know. It can't be as bad as Litchi. I am very very sad now Edited February 8, 2011 by A.X.I.S. /Salt
Dacidbro Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Lol yeah I can agree with you, Litchi is still probably somehow worse. God CS1 Tager is so fucking bad.
TD Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 ok so lk, about the 2a tactic, wouldnt that just be someone being salty that they lost a match and finding an excuse to cover their bleeding... areas?
A.X.I.S. Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Lol yeah I can agree with you, Litchi is still probably somehow worse. God CS1 Tager is so fucking bad. CS1 Tager isn't that bad, he does have things that CT Tager should have had. Hell I win with him so it has to be saying a lot.
Osuna Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Like Chou said, Arakune is one chance man. Litchi might be touch of death, but Arakune is block of death. . . blocking D a couple of times leads to curse, I really can't stand that. In addition, 3F jump makes some stuff way too annoying to deal with, and his mobility is way up there. I wouldn't mind him this version, except his curse damage output is fucked up.I see I see, that stuff was worked on a bit, but time will tell. Have any favorites for Evo? I'm rootin' for seattle/tacoma area to sweep it again.Actually more importantly, is there anything Tagers can do to give you a hard time as litchi. Assuming they got in already? Or mistakes commonly made in the match up besides the obvious stuff like wasting spark from full screen for no reason. Actually (Lots of actuallies today) could you tell me what you like to do to tager? Up close, since most zoning is kinda self explanatory with that match up. Or I guess if you never end up close, then sad face. @dacid "6A should be incredibly strong against ara" and "IB 6A and IB Voltic Charge 720, could be very strong. Give it time" These are your first claims. Neither mention tricks, but you'll see multiple posts from Tager mains who mention gimmicks. Like with the point about ara's damage reduction, you seem to be trying to take the ground we agreed on From the Start as your position, which can't possibly be what we were arguing about. You also made a appeal to consequences argument (A fallacy) that was totally unsubstantiated. Describing how the community was being destroyed by educated pessimism, and built by your educated optimism was so out there I was going to call it a slippery slope argument before I realized it only had 2 steps. One of the first things I did was tell you that I didn't think the match up necessarily got worse, and the other tagers agreed with me, but we're all being called pessimists. That's a false dichotomy fallacy that led you to misrepresent everyone except skye. (Misrepresent as in strawman) Anywho this has gone beyond ridiculous in no small part thanks to my above average displeasure with bad arguments. I've already taken the time to write this whole post out, but after this I'll be private messaging any further objections, which in retrospect I should have done from the start. Sorry, LK.
Lord Knight Posted February 8, 2011 Author Posted February 8, 2011 If it's CS1, I'll definitely win evo (!!!) PNW will of course be a strong force again, as will west coast. If the south's best players show up, it'll be pretty interesting. Normally when I play against Tager, I feel like weak Tager's are too random, and strong Tager's feel like they're too smart, so I like staying away from them. I go for hits, and Litchi can do it. Tager's pressure is pretty strong, and it sucks when I get magnetized and escape because he can still do stuff to pull me back, so I feel like I have to hit him quickly, which leads to that same unpleasant situation that I described before.
mAc Chaos Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 > Tager pressure > strong I just can't wrap my mind around this concept.
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