Nakkiel Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Making a stupid move can catch someone off-guard, even smart players. It can work in any game, don't act like it's just BB.
toanenadiz Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 So how do you win match-ups that are 7-3 or worse? There is only so far playing 'smart' will take you if you are against another 'smart' player. And why do you single out BB like it is the only game where being random works?
LuminAbyss Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Doing something risky to catch an opponent off guard is, believe it or not, a smart thing to do. it's only stupid when it's the only thing you do (thereby losing it's surprise factor), which is how a lot of scrubs play. Certain characters get their best stuff off being risky (Tager, Noel, etc), so you can't say it's stupid if that's the thing the character should be trying to do to win.
A.X.I.S. Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 You win those matches with mind games and dumb luck. Holy shit being random is so risky. I only do things I don't do and I win more by doing that. "This guy never mashes on my overheads" 720'd. "This guy won't tech trap me so its safe to tech" Get trapped. "he 2C's so I am gonna bait it by jumping back" ATOMIC CORRIDOR!! I wonder how often this works in SF lol.
LuminAbyss Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 "This guy won't tech trap me so its safe to tech" Get trapped. My life summed up in one sentence. What makes it worse is that I tech out of reflex because that's what I do in other match-ups. WRYYYYYY
Rhiya Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Making a stupid move can catch someone off-guard, even smart players. It can work in any game, don't act like it's just BB. Yes, I know. But BB encourages enough stupid shit by itself. Negative warning, anyone? So how do you win match-ups that are 7-3 or worse? There is only so far playing 'smart' will take you if you are against another 'smart' player. You don't play them. I'm not even fucking kidding. You just don't play them in a competitive environment. And why do you single out BB like it is the only game where being random works? While BB isn't the only game where being random can work, BB just... makes doing less smart things profitable far more of the time than it should. Doing something risky to catch an opponent off guard is, believe it or not, a smart thing to do. If it works, it's because you've conditioned your opponent to not expect it, which is indeed smart play. But throwing risk/reward out the window (look at the amount of Tagers doing completely random 720s and holding it down like it'll save their lives) isn't good at all, and it's what we're discussing.
A.X.I.S. Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 But throwing risk/reward out the window (look at the amount of Tagers doing completely random 720s and holding it down like it'll save their lives) isn't good at all, and it's what we're discussing. We hold the 720 because its -39 in CS1...so even if we let go it CH's us. This way if you fuck up the punish you still get snagged for it. Nothing is bullet proof but I will be damned if I didn't win matches because I held down 720 when someone jumped. Random 720's are the best 720's especially if you are me. (the tager who never really 720's.)
Nakkiel Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Yes, I know. But BB encourages enough stupid shit by itself. Negative warning, anyone? You don't play them. I'm not even fucking kidding. You just don't play them in a competitive environment. While BB isn't the only game where being random can work, BB just... makes doing less smart things profitable far more of the time than it should. If it works, it's because you've conditioned your opponent to not expect it, which is indeed smart play. But throwing risk/reward out the window (look at the amount of Tagers doing completely random 720s and holding it down like it'll save their lives) isn't good at all, and it's what we're discussing. I'm not following how that encourages poor play. This is irrelevant and it doesn't work. Don't play them? So when you're forced into the situation due to brackets in a tournament you should just bow out? How? Explain this. You don't need to necessarily condition an opponent to not expect something when you've never played against them before. They're playing you in the dark from the start with nothing but matchup knowledge, they don't know what exactly to expect from the player.
Rhiya Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 We hold the 720 because its -39 in CS1...so even if we let go it CH's us. Which is why it's throwing risk/reward out the window. This way if you fuck up the punish you still get snagged for it. Nothing is bullet proof but I will be damned if I didn't win matches because I held down 720 when someone jumped. Nothing really to say here that doesn't involve Tager being sad. Random 720's are the best 720's especially if you are me. (the tager who never really 720's.) Again, if you condition someone not to expect X and then do X, it's not random or stupid.
Shervin Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) You win those matches with mind games and dumb luck. Holy shit being random is so risky. I only do things I don't do and I win more by doing that. "This guy never mashes on my overheads" 720'd. "This guy won't tech trap me so its safe to tech" Get trapped. "he 2C's so I am gonna bait it by jumping back" ATOMIC CORRIDOR!! I wonder how often this works in SF lol. Lol I remember playing AE in the arcade and I was up against 2 really good players who will rename nameless. I did this same thing to both of them: I had them knocked down in the corner, and we were both tied with about 1/3rd of our life left. On their wakeup, I went for a grab and it worked. So then im like, why not i have nothing to lose, went for another grab. It worked again... so now my ego is x50 and I go to grab them AGAIN for the 3rd straight time, and it grabbed them out of their reversal. So then I jumped in and teleported, which effectively baited out a DP and I punished for a win. 2nd person, did the 3 grabs and all that. At this point, I proceeded to talk a lot of shit as they only have a few pixels of health life. Teleport bait didnt work And then I choked and lost lool Edited February 20, 2011 by Shervin
Rhiya Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) I'm not following how that encourages poor play. Negative warning? Here's an example. As Tsu, backdashing repeatedly/airdash back j.CC etc. is SMART in neutral, if you can do it. You want space to charge. This is especially notable against Tager (which is an ass matchup anyways but w/e). When I get negative warning for doing this, it's like LOL SORRY YOU'RE BEING SMART, LET ME PUNISH YOU FOR ACTUALLY DOING WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO WIN This is irrelevant and it doesn't work. Don't play them? So when you're forced into the situation due to brackets in a tournament you should just bow out? Character locked tourneys, fun shit. I mean don't play those matchups as in have a sub with a less ass matchup against the opponent and play them with your sub. More Tsubaki examples: sub Ragna, do Ragna mirrors instead of vs. Ragna, Ragna v. Tager instead of Tsu v. Tager etc. How? Explain this. Tech system encourages trying to forward roll out of corner instead of just fucking blocking on wakeup. It doesn't help that punishing forward roll makes you eat DP and punishing DP makes forward roll go through, so it's like a retarded wakeup mixup. It encourages backtech midscreen (which puts you closer to the corner, which should be something you DON'T want) because backtech midscreen is just stupid OP and gives a free reset to neutral in too many situations. Negative warning, like I explained earlier. Bottom four charas sucking so hard that they continually need to do risky shit for real damage You don't need to necessarily condition an opponent to not expect something when you've never played against them before. They're playing you in the dark from the start with nothing but matchup knowledge, they don't know what exactly to expect from the player. This is a fair counterexample, actually. I'll give you this. There are a few lulzy exceptions, though, like moves that're so bad that NO ONE uses them. (Akiha 2bbb anyone?) Everyone else who plays your chara has done the conditioning for you. Lol I remember playing AE in the arcade and I was up against 2 really good players who will rename nameless. I did this same thing to both of them: I had them knocked down in the corner, and we were both tied with about 1/3rd of our life left. On their wakeup, I went for a grab and it worked. So then im like, why not i have nothing to lose, went for another grab. It worked again... so now my ego is x50 and I go to grab them AGAIN for the 3rd straight time, and it grabbed them out of their reversal. So then I jumped in and teleported, which effectively baited out a DP and I punished for a win. 2nd person, did the 3 grabs and all that. At this point, I proceeded to talk a lot of shit as they only have a few pixels of health life. Teleport bait didnt work And then I choked and lost lool Your story reminds me of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pphDFZ5YuPA&t=5m13s Edited February 20, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos
A.X.I.S. Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Tsubaki's 5B is the only reason Tager vs Tsu isn't 6-4 real talk.
toanenadiz Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 You don't play them. I'm not even fucking kidding. You just don't play them in a competitive environment. But Goro still manages to win tournaments with a character that has at least one 7-3 matchup. Character locked tourneys, fun shit. I mean don't play those matchups as in have a sub with a less ass matchup against the opponent and play them with your sub. I have to disagree with this. If you just switch out your character any time you have a bad match-up, you are going to be less proficient with your character than someone who doesn't. And learning bad match-ups would help you when you are dealing with even or good match-ups. Then again, I just hate the whole counter-pick strategy, so I may be talking out of my ass. Tech system encourages trying to forward roll out of corner instead of just fucking blocking on wakeup. It doesn't help that punishing forward roll makes you eat DP and punishing DP makes forward roll go through, so it's like a retarded wakeup mixup. It encourages backtech midscreen (which puts you closer to the corner, which should be something you DON'T want) because backtech midscreen is just stupid OP and gives a free reset to neutral in too many situations. Are you sure that isn't just character specific? I never get hit by DPs when trying to punish forward rolls. And while i agree that back roll midscreen is too good, at least it has a downside of putting someone towards the corner, which you can use to your advantage if you are the attacker sometimes. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, I just trying to understand your arguments.
Rhiya Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 But Goro still manages to win tournaments with a character that has at least one 7-3 matchup. "But X player wins Y even though matchups suck" isn't valid. The really atrocious matchups in this game (Tager vs. Ara, for example) are so bad that you have to outplay your opponent 20 times over to squeeze out your win. Practically speaking, you're handicapping yourself far more than you need to. They aren't unwinnable matchups, but they're fucking hard, and you're giving the other player 1-cent lunch while you work your ass off. In tourney, if you're there to win, that wouldn't be worth the trouble. I have to disagree with this. If you just switch out your character any time you have a bad match-up, you are going to be less proficient with your character than someone who doesn't. And learning bad match-ups would help you when you are dealing with even or good match-ups. Then again, I just hate the whole counter-pick strategy, so I may be talking out of my ass. Ehh, yes and no. You'll get more experience with your chara, but knowing how to beat Tager as Tsu is nothing like knowing how to beat Ragna as Tsu. Matchups may need to be played very differently in this game. As per counterpicking, if I'm to troll tiny bit, it's more like by playing your chara, you're giving them free counterpick. If your opponent is Mu and you pick Tager, Mu just gets to laugh hard while you struggle hard. You're making things unnecessarily hard for yourself. Are you sure that isn't just character specific? I never get hit by DPs when trying to punish forward rolls. And while i agree that back roll midscreen is too good, at least it has a downside of putting someone towards the corner, which you can use to your advantage if you are the attacker sometimes. Might be chara specific, but I've had it happen a few times. v_v As per backroll, the stages are too large for that to be a really noticeable side-effect unless you're already like 1/2 or 2/3s a screen from the corner, which is why backroll is so OP. And didn't I mention that?
Rhiya Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Describe the setups to punish. I'd appreciate it
Lord Knight Posted February 21, 2011 Author Posted February 21, 2011 What happened in this thread, lol. Back roll is far from OP. Even in most other fg's, knockdowns where the opponent is far from you result in them backdashing/jumping away safely.
Rhiya Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 What happened in this thread, lol. Me being stupid and bsing arguments hard >_> <_<
LuminAbyss Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Describe the setups to punish. I'd appreciate it Here's a quick one for Ragna (This works better closer to the corner, but): After a D Divider > 623C >214D Knockdown, you can punish forward and back rolls with a falling j.B, catching your opponent if they do anything other than neutral tech. And of course, if they neutral tech, you can continue pressure. If you hit them as they try to roll, you can continue attacking.
Rhiya Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Where are the people who know this shit for Tsu? v_v WHERE?
A.X.I.S. Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Setups? you don't need setups to punish tech rolls...must be that Tsubaki in your brains DT. Easy examples are Ragna and Tager. Tager can beat tech rolls with 5B even though its not well rewarded without magnetism, he can Also punish the roll with 2D which pushes them ever further into the corner and magnetizes them. Ragna can do BE>3C which forces a neutral tech, you can jump cancel 3C and wait for what they do, if they roll back you can airdash j.C them, if they roll forward you can air backdash and j.B them, and if they don't tech you can 2B them and continue. For a bonus I'll name a few more: Lambda is 5D, no one roll tech's on Lambda because 5D will pick you up and you lose 2-3k for doing it. Hazama has 2A which goes into his BnB. Bang can 2A/3C the roll. and You should never back roll roll on jin because 2A stuff's it. I just named a bunch of pokes to do it, characters with decent oki generally have moves that let them move long before their opponents can. /scrub. Edit: Lumin why you telling people my Ragna setups. Edited February 21, 2011 by A.X.I.S.
LuminAbyss Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Edit: Lumin why you telling people my Ragna setups. So I can find a way to beat you.
A.X.I.S. Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Lumin you can already beat me, you take rounds off of me.
LuminAbyss Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Lumin you can already beat me, you take rounds off of me. NOOOOO I MUST BE THE BEST RAGNA IN THE WORLD KFJADLKFJKDAFAKDFJLAKDF
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