Sophisticat Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Don't you play bang though? Nails, 5A, Overheads, Command grabs, lows, ambiguous crossups and cross unders, FRKZ, don't you have every single fucken tool at your disposal? What you meant to say is you got better at abusing the WIDE variety of tools your character has, amirite? Okay, double post lol. This guy here is part of what I mean. We just had a tourney tonight with Grand Finals being him as Makoto vs. another with Rachel. Normally, you'd say "Rachel is dead, Makoto has 7k combos and Rachel can only do 3k". Yeah, no. Both players were really good at anticipating and blocking each other's stuff. Like, some of it was really mind-boggling "how the F did you block that shit?!" stuff. So... How do these guys get better? Nini, you elaborate. I'm outtie because I need my sleep and I'm rambling here. -_-
mAc Chaos Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Sophisticat, that's when you get most of your damage off the neutral game... and abusing the opponent's mistakes on their own offense. At a certain point every Hakumen player has to back off... he's not designed to have a great offense.
Airk Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Okay, sure. How? I'm at the point where my opponent is aware of my options, and I'm aware of his. He knows my habits and I know his, and we're both aware of this... Etc., Etc. So... How do I get better, that is the question! Sounds obvious to me, at least on a high level Break/change your habits. While it's possible that somehow you've both become better at defense that all of Japan, they still manage to have matches that aren't blocking fests, so that's probably not it. Odds are, you two both just know how the other plays, and are having a hard time getting creative and breaking out of your 'rut'. Japanese play would seem to indicate that the game is not, in fact, just a huge blockfest at high levels, so I don't really think your assertion stands in the face of general evidence. Now HOW do you break your habits? Well, I guess you need to figure out what they are first. Sorry if this sounds like "improving at fighting games 101" here, but there's not a lot to work with in your question, either.
TD Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Good Shit lk for teaching me the bang matchup. I really needed it because most the time I just attempt ib dp randomly. Not only that, but now I know how I should be treating most matchups instead of "I zoner, I zone". You really helped me a lot, I no longer feel like a player that reached his peak. I'm going to get ten times better, just you wait!
toanenadiz Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Wow. LK's advice is making you 10 times better? Care to share this amazing advice?
CakeWasBannedd Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 it's best not to take anything TD says to heart, he's kind of an idiot
Lord Knight Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Lately I've been noticing that I don't really know how to play my ranges very well (Something I've been told many times is that you're best aspect is that you know your distances) and that I kind of just use my pokes whenever they're far away, not when I really SHOULD be using them. How exactly should I practice knowing my ranges and implementing them into a fight? Normally I just poke when I don't feel like RTSD and I've found that as I get better and I have started fighting more experienced players that doesn't really work very well. Thanks in advance LK! "You're best aspect is you know your distances" - does that refer to me? Knowing about manipulating ranges can't really be practiced alone - it has to be experienced through playing. The main thing is that you understand the concept of spacing. To put it simply, realize that when a character is standing still, there are lines going out all round them (their hitboxes). Good spacing/use of normals is understanding what you can and can't compete with, and knowing what wins and what loses. Keep in mind also that the way the character can move, since that will affect how you move (or at least, it should). OK, not "in-depth analysis" per se, but maybe reasons why said mechanics are bad (or are perceived that way). Like I see people going "lolthrows in BB" or "CS2 Tager still sucks (I didn't specify this earlier, but I meant CS2 tager) or "Tech-roll system is awful". I don't understand WHY they say that. Like when you say you don't like the primer system, do you mean it's crappy, and poorly thought out? Or that it's a preference thing, meaning that since you came from a GG background, you just have a personal preference for that kind of system? Personally, I find that the mechanics are justified. For example, throws are not just "run-up and throw" giving you guaranteed damage, they requires more thought and mind-rape abilities on the aggressor's part to make them land. And the throw-reject-miss mechanic supplements the throw mechanic in a very nice way so that one can't mash throw tech. And since throws are harder to land successfully (I mean, come on, landing a throw + opponent not teching is a tough probability at high levels), the rewards are higher, i.e., the damage off of them is decent (as much as a normal combo). Another thing is CS2 Tager. Sure he has obvious mobility problems, but he has such good tools that other grapplers would kill to have + the highest health and defence in the game, doesn't that compensate? BUT, I don't know if I'm missing something that others (might) know and hence say said things about said mechanics. Don't mods have powers they can use/abuse? Maybe you can bring back the thread from the abyss for your viewing pleasure? Although the part about the GGxBB discussion was just a prologue to the question I was gonna ask, doesn't have much relevance. Most people think throws are bad because of the large tech window (especially on purple throws). It's mostly because the punishment for blocking is throwing - so if you can just sit and block everything and react to all the throws by teching them, even if the reward is large, it's almost impossible to land. . . Except it's very possible to punish both whiffed throw techs (like Jin's 6B) and OS throw tech (thanks to throw reject miss). To be honest, most of the things people don't like in the game are probably things they don't know the answer to. . . and that happens across the board. Tager sucks, point. I've learned that you can pretty much faceroll/butt slap the controller and he can't do anything about it. 720/grabs/traps aren't even a threat anymore. It's a bit sad, in a way. No one should be treated like a sandbag. Anyway, LK, I'm in need of some general high-level mindgames/strats because the local guys I play can block all the Haku stuff I throw at them. Any tips? On that note, it's also one of the weaknesses of BB that I've noticed... Play enough, and you can block a ton of stuff. You'll start noticing that the game becomes a blocking fest. BB should give more threatening mixup options for every character. But that might just be me. First - capitalize damage off neutral game. Second - Abuse throw reject miss with him. Third - Tsubaki Fourth - If possible, memorize their style and do jD, damage is stupid. Fifth - 6B/3C for knockdown >high/low/throw/trm Hakumen isn't exactly a mixup character.
PSOInvictus Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I want to play you soon LK so I can get a wall of text on what I need to work on. Serious
Nini Heart Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Sounds obvious to me, at least on a high level Break/change your habits. While it's possible that somehow you've both become better at defense that all of Japan, they still manage to have matches that aren't blocking fests, so that's probably not it. Odds are, you two both just know how the other plays, and are having a hard time getting creative and breaking out of your 'rut'. Japanese play would seem to indicate that the game is not, in fact, just a huge blockfest at high levels, so I don't really think your assertion stands in the face of general evidence. Now HOW do you break your habits? Well, I guess you need to figure out what they are first. Sorry if this sounds like "improving at fighting games 101" here, but there's not a lot to work with in your question, either. What he's trying to say is, when your offensive options are limited and you reach the point where the person against who you're fighting KNOWS everything you can throw at him including frame traps, overheads, lows, throws/tick throws and can block every single one of them. How do you break their defense at this point is what he's trynna ask. And yeah, we recently had 2 back to back tourneys and I faced the rachel player in grand finals both times and in pool play and brackets too. By the first grand final, he could block everything I could throw to him on reaction, and I was in a similar position. The match didn't devolve into a huge blockfest though. We started relying a lot on IBing>2A, anticipating the next move, playing a better neutral game to avoid being hit and being a lot more creative with our mixups(like 5 overheads in a row). I know I might get flamed for this but really, I don't think japan's defense is as gdlk as you guys make it sound. They get TRM'd a lot, they eat overheads a lot, etc. There are some players who are good at blocking but I don't think it's a japan only thing.
huey253 Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Don't you play bang though? Nails, 5A, Overheads, Command grabs, lows, ambiguous crossups and cross unders, FRKZ, don't you have every single fucken tool at your disposal? What you meant to say is you got better at abusing the WIDE variety of tools your character has, amirite? well, there somethings you can do. like condition your opponent to react to something a certain way and abuse it. anti throw tactics/TRM gimmicky stuff is cool (just don't make it your whole game) some other stuff. best way to improve is to record videos of yourself playing againist people and review the GOOD and BAD. a good question to ask yourself while watching videos of other people; i wonder how these players seem to land hits on each other, or why are they going for these weird mixups
Zeromus_X Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I know it was like a week ago, so you may not remember, but do you have any tips or advice for me from when we played? What do you think I need to improve on, especially regarding spacing? Also any advice for the Mu vs Litchi matchup in particular? I was in such a rush to keep playing you, that I didn't save any of the replays, and I feel kind of dumb for it now. =/
Leaf Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 what do you think about arakune? is he a faggot?
Nini Heart Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 what do you think about arakune? is he a faggot? Probably not since Litchi is/was his bitch .
Airk Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 What he's trying to say is, when your offensive options are limited and you reach the point where the person against who you're fighting KNOWS everything you can throw at him including frame traps, overheads, lows, throws/tick throws and can block every single one of them. How do you break their defense at this point is what he's trynna ask. Isn't this the point that everyone strives to get to? It's where it stops being about reactions and execution and starts being about strategy, conditioning, and mindgames. It's not THAT complicated. If someone "knows" that you are going to tick throw them after move X, wait half a beat and then do it, or throw a second jab, or whathaveyou. Virtually no one is such a machine that they can deal with all possible options without some sort of anticipation. And yeah, we recently had 2 back to back tourneys and I faced the rachel player in grand finals both times and in pool play and brackets too. By the first grand final, he could block everything I could throw to him on reaction, and I was in a similar position. The match didn't devolve into a huge blockfest though. We started relying a lot on IBing>2A, anticipating the next move, playing a better neutral game to avoid being hit and being a lot more creative with our mixups(like 5 overheads in a row). Exactly. o.o I know I might get flamed for this but really, I don't think japan's defense is as gdlk as you guys make it sound. They get TRM'd a lot, they eat overheads a lot, etc. There are some players who are good at blocking but I don't think it's a japan only thing. >shrug< Godlike? No. Better than the average US player? Yes. They do, as a rule, get a heck of a lot more head to head practice than we do, and everyone SWEARS that's the best way to get better. Regardless, I've never seen a match at any level of play from any location that I would have described as a blockfest. Sometimes people go 5-10 whole seconds and block everything, but then either someone gets fooled, or someone makes a mistake or steals momentum. Is it theoretically possible to become good enough where your defense is literally impenetrable on reaction? I'd honestly say no. That's the realm of computers. Is it possible to get to the point where it LOOKS like you have impenetrable reactive defense? Yes, but that's generally just because you know what's coming.
Sophisticat Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 Isn't this the point that everyone strives to get to? It's where it stops being about reactions and execution and starts being about strategy, conditioning, and mindgames. Nini, you thinking what I'm thinking? We on the road to transcendence, here. :P Joking aside, I agree with you Airk. It's just that the MTL scene is at the point where we're heading into higher level play, so it's sort of a mini-crisis for us right now. We're just trying to find the way to achieve that higher level of play, and it's proving a bit frustrating. Btw, I agree with Nini in that I now sometime wonder just how some players get hit by stuff in vids. Maybe it's airmchair judgment since I'm not the one playing, but it's there. I suppose it's all a part of the process of leveling up. :]
zeth07 Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 LK, I know this probably doesn't relate to you, but how do you feel about players getting randomed out? Or how would you feel if you saw a person who you usually have competitive matches with (while using Litchi), lose to some other person (also using Litchi) who was basically being completely random and somehow managing to win against that person who you usually have good matches with? Is it because you both know what you're doing and expect things to happen, so when that random person is seemingly just pressing buttons it catches the other player off guard and they somehow lose to it? Or is it a sign that being more random can actually help to a certain degree? And I'm not talking about doing stuff that would be considered trolling, i'm talking about stuff that would make you ask "Why did he do that?" and "Why did that work?" or "Why is he losing to this person?" Just curious on what your thoughts on that kinda situation would be.
zeth07 Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 Watch videos of Kusoru. Like I said, that's not the kinda random I'm talking about.
Nini Heart Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 LK, how seriously do you take netplay and do you even think netplay should be taken seriously? I recently stopped being a netplayer and i'm having a hard time returning to netplay :/
LunaKage Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 LK, how seriously do you take netplay and do you even think netplay should be taken seriously? I recently stopped being a netplayer and i'm having a hard time returning to netplay :/ I'm not LK, but I've been called LK, not the point, but here's my take on netplay: Don't take it seriously, even good connections still have noticeable lag compared to offline. But if you are going to play online, I suggest only playing other players who play offline, because even if your opponent is a good player, if he is only a netplayer he still uses netplay tactics, even if he doesn't realize it. Its better to not build up the bad habits needed to beat a player like that. I learn that lesson everytime I fight my online friends, and nowadays I just don't do it.
huey253 Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 i am the king of xbl netplay. mike z told me so a long time ago.
zreb Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 Everyone on netplay is guilty of being a dumb netplayer until proven innocent. This is mentality has served me well.
Nini Heart Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 i am the king of xbl netplay. mike z told me so a long time ago. But you don't even have an Xbox ........................ Thanks LK the second. I was thinking along those lines but not sure what to do. Thanks for making it easier for me.
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