[CS2] Tsubaki Tutorial Video

[pktazn]

Well we basically have the format in the first three posts, it's just a matter of how we're going to present it, as in how are we going to word it. It's up to us to choose what we feel would be the best way to inform people who are interested in playing Tsubaki what she can do by showing off the stuff she uses most.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Ginseng even though I'm like 5 minutes late lol. Oh quick reply time-lapses what am I going to do with you

[pktazn]

Gonna double-post cuz I'm cool like that unless I get ninja'd... again.

I was wondering how we're going to organize the info for her normals/specials. Would it be easier to explain how Tsubaki plays with how the guide explains her moves or something a bit more simple for all the normals like:

5B - longest normal poke, anti-air, jump/charge cancellable on hit/block

or how STen listed it?

I would suggest just doing something like:

Good normal pokes=

Some normal blockstrings=

Anti-airs=

JCable moves (note whether it is on hit or on block)=

Normals with +frames=

For normals rather than listing everything.

At least to start off, then we could add onto it from there since her normals and specials are pretty much set and have that section done for the most part.

[Airk]

I dunno. The more I think about this, the more I feel that what we should do is just bulk up our guide with as much info as possible, and then Spirit Juice and co make the decisions about what to include. We could give "priorities" by, say, ordering our "tactics" or "tips and tricks" from "most useful" to "more situational" but for specials and normals, I think we want to overload with info rather than underload. SJ and whoever else does the video can then do the picking and choosing to make sure that all the videos contain roughly the same quality and depth of info for each character.

Maybe I'll go read some of the other character threads.

[pktazn]

Then maybe it would be better if we list all of them? Most of the other character threads just listed everything they have to my knowledge with quick explanations. I can only confidently say that about Noel's since I play her still lol.

[Ginseng]

Think of this like a research paper.

You have the abstract, which is basically a summary of the entire research paper. Then you have the summary, which is several times larger than the abstract and goes into all the specific little details and analysis on the subject at hand.

What we are working on is the "abstract" of Tsubaki's gameplan/playstyle. We do all the nitty-gritty details in the guides, discussion, matchup threads, combos, etc. To make a video with all that detail would make the length easily be 10+ minutes, and that is really not the point of a tutorial video.

[Airk]

Well, I thought I was gonna go be all clever and look in the Litchi forums for all their cool video-thread-strats, but they don't even have a thread, so nuts to them. :P

Since the standard format for this appears to contain a section called "Changes from CS1 to CS2" and I've already done a frame data deep dive, I'm putting together a short summary of that stuff. Here it is.

- Most normals received a proration improvement, and/or untech time increase, leading to better combos off random hits.

- Most normals now safer on block

- 6B is significantly improved, giving frame advantage and good pressure.

- 3C is no longer cancellable except with Rapid Cancel, no longer a relatively safe, staple move.

- Charging is much faster and safer. 2D is completely safe, 5D picks up a stock of charge in very little time.

- 236A/B/C are now significantly safer and can be plus on block if spaced correctly.

- 236C can be used as a combo starter.

- 214X moves have gained some head/body invulnerability.

- 22C is now plus on block.

- 236236C now has significant, frame one, startup invincibility, making it a strong reversal.

I think that hits the highlights without getting into all the fiddly details.

[BatousaiJ]

Alright, here we go. I'll be adding more as I get some more time in.

All data is correct and confirmed in the PSP version of CS 2 as is subject to change when the console patch comes out.

If you'd like explanation for the listing of certain combos and which one would be a better candidate for "BnB", do post and ask here.

Tsubaki BnB Compilation-

* = Combo works as is with 2A/5A starter added in

^ = Combo does not work when enemy is hit while crouched

No Charge-

Anywhere

5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A > dash 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [2751 damage, 23 meter gain]*

5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A > dash 2C > hjc j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214C [2864 damage, 23 meter gain]*

Corner

5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3073 damage, 30 meter gain]*

5BB > 5CC > 22B > dash 2B > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [2681 damage, 32 meter gain]*

1 Charge-

Anywhere

5B > 5C > 2C > 214D > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [3395 damage, 33 meter gain]*^

5BB> 5CC > 623C > j.214A > dash 2CC > 236D > dash 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [3287 damage, 31 meter gain]*

Corner

5B > 5C > 2C > 214D > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3590 damage, 40 meter gain]*^

5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A > 2C > jc j.C > j.C > j.214D > 5©C whiff > 2CC > 22C > dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3732 damage, 44 meter gain]*

236D(non CH) -

Anywhere

236D > 5BB > 5C > 623C > j.214A > dash 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [3049 damage, 24 meter gain]

Corner

236D > 5BB > 5C > 623C > j.214A > dash 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3371 damage, 31 meter gain]

214D(non CH)-

Anywhere

214D > walk forward 5C > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [3707 damage, 28 meter gain]

Corner

214D > walk forward 5C > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3981 damage, 36 meter gain]

to be continued...

[BatousaiJ]

Continuing-

2 Charge, 2A/5B starter-

Anywhere

5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A > dash 2C > hjc j.C > j.214D > 236D > 5B > 2CC > 236C > 214C > 22C [3609 damage, 37 meter gain] *

5B > 5C > 2C > 214D > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236D > dash 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3638 damage, 39 meter gain] *^

Note: purpose of midscreen 2 charge combos is to carry to the corner.

Corner

5B > 5CC > 22D > 6CC > jc j.C > j.C > j.214D > 5CC > 2CC > 22C > dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [4408 damage, 48 meter gain]*

5B > 5CC > 623C > j.214A > 214D > 6CC > jc j.C > j.214D > 5CC > 2CC > 22C > dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [4526 damage, 48 meter gain]*

to be continued...

[BatousaiJ]

2C air hit starter-

Anywhere

2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [2481 damage, 23 meter gain]

Corner

2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 22C> 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [2734 damage, 30 meter gain]

2C air hit starter, 1 charge-

Anywhere

2CC > 236D > dash 2CC >IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [3015 damage, 31 meter gain]

Corner

2CC > >IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC >214D > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3100 damage, 38 meter gain]

2C air hit starter, 2 charge-

Corner

2CC > 22D > 6CC > j.214D > 5CC > 2CC > 22C > dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3786 damage, 41 meter gain]

to be continued...

[pktazn]

Batousai, would you consider the combos with IADs to be part of the more advanced combos or just some of them? I think I remember you mentioning that the timing was really strict.

[BatousaiJ]

I used to think IAD combos were hard but it's all in the way of initiating the IAD after the 2CC hit that makes all the difference.

It's hard to explain but once you figure out the "easy" way that works for you(there are two), the timing becomes second nature.

Kind of reminds me of the timing for CS 1's 3C > jc > falling j.C pick up. I had trouble with that but once I had the timing, I rarely dropped it.

The reason why IAD combos are so important now especially in midscreen combos is the great carry it has to the corner. With 1 charge, you can carry from one corner to the next with ease and almost no other character can do that without heat.

However, oddly enough the thing that I have the most trouble with to this day is the 5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A > 2CC link.

The 2CC pick up there is a tricky mistress indeed. Tight to begin with and changing ever so slightly to mess with you with wonky tall/short hitbox characters. That's the reason why I've listed the alternative which gives more damage/meter gain but does not have positional advantage.

The reason why I put that in there isn't really because of the damage/meter gain increase but because how easy that alternative is in comparison.

As for the advanced tag, I can go back and put difficulty fugly hats out of... 5 or something.

The supposed difficulty is pretty deceptive actually since many corner links that go with 22C > 5C > 2C require you to charge 22C just long enough to have enough knockaway but not too short/long because they'd be able to tech. More or less reminiscent of 214B > 22A link from CS 1.

[pktazn]

Yea that would help since I can't test out the combos myself and say which are more difficult since I'm planning on updating the first few posts with what we have right now. I pretty much organized it already in notepad I just need to figure out if it should go under basic or advanced.

[Airk]

A "number of all-seeing hats" rating system for difficulty would be epic.

[BatousaiJ]

Bam.

Alright, I'm gonna take some time and put a rating of fugly hats on all those combos I've posted here(not today) so far and in the future.

Ratings go as follows-

= "I can do this in my sleep, brah"

= "Easy as pie, I can do this online against 1 bar opponents!"

= "This is a bit tricky but with some practice and decent lag, I can do this pretty consistently!"

= "Errr... this is pretty damn strict. I'm not sure if I can ever get this one super consistently."

= "WTF!? Am I making a combo video or something?"

[Ginseng]

.....Well here are a few words and comments from me.

Great job on the combos! Really nice job on figuring out what are the bread and butters people should work on. I'll let pktazn do the work because I'm lazy! Regarding listing them as basic or advanced, I say list the normal air combo stuff in basics, while leaving IAD combos and 22C > dash 5C 2C > etc combos in advanced.

Regarding a rating system...this is totally not necessary -.-. Difficulty is hard to relate to because it's all subjective, and frankly, it just looks really stupid imo :/

[BatousaiJ]

I know what you're saying about how the difficulty thing isn't necessary but given it's for a tutorial for beginners, it might not be a bad idea to give a general idea of which combos would be easiest to master first and foremost before they get road blocked trying to get down a combo that's extremely tough for the simple fact that it was listed first.

Besides, while I would agree that combo difficulty is subjective in a lot of ways, it's not hard to make a distinction between really tight links and the most basic kind of stuff to the point where the differences are almost black and white so it wouldn't be completely inaccurate.

This is more of an idea I'd like to pursue for the tutorial thread more so than the video to be honest, though.

If we don't want to use it in either formats though, it's no chip off my back as it'd just be less work for me. Shame I made that hat sprite for nothing though, I'll have to find a reason to use it somewhere else then.

[Airk]

Bah; I don't think there's that much variance in difficulty between combos for different people. One person might have an easier time IN GENERAL learning combos than someone else, but I don't really think there's such a thing as a person who has, say, a natural gift for instant air dashes that would lower the difficulty of that sort of combo relative to anything else.

I'm in favor of at least some sort of guidelines for combo difficulty. It gives those of us who are incompetent a good guess about how to work things through, and people who don't need it don't need to use it. It's like the Pirate Code. :P

[pktazn]

While difficulty can be subjective in many ways, not everyone knows how to do an IAD or dash during a combo and keep it going. Knowing what to do and executing it are two very different things. If you want a personal example from me I can share but I'd post it in the general thread haha. The tutorial is supposed to cater to all players, beginners and veterans alike, and there probably wouldn't be anything more frustrating for a beginner trying to learn Tsu's combos than to think they couldn't even do one of her basic combos.

In regards to showing which combos are more difficult, while the hats would be a way to show which ones are more difficult, it'd probably be easier by just listing it under "advanced" or "basic" since it implies that the ones listed under basic would technically be easier to complete than the ones under advanced. We can tweak and converse about which combos are "more" basic than others over some hot tea and crumpets when more people have access to CS2.

[BatousaiJ]

Uhhhhhh... I'll think of something.

Probably.

Soon.

Ish.

[BatousaiJ]

Alright, I've looked through the combos and thought about it and I feel some of the sections don't particularly have a "easy" variation.

For example is the 1 charge anywhere combo

5B > 5C > 2C > 214D > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [3395 damage, 33 meter gain]*^

5BB> 5CC > 623C > j.214A > dash 2CC > 236D > dash 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [3287 damage, 31 meter gain]*

I would consider them both advanced in all honesty because they aren't easy to do. One includes the dreaded 2CC link after 623C > j.214A and the other has the IAD which will be difficult for beginners.

It'd be pretty sad to not have a beginner friendly 1 charge mid-screen combo with decent benefits so I'll really have to think about this one. It could be that there isn't any but I'll do some revisions and make some guidelines that all the combos can follow instead of separating them into different lists.

It'll be something you read before you check out all the combos and I'll point out precisely what reoccurring part of a combo makes it difficult.

[Ginseng]

Example of basic combo: 5BB 2BB 5CC > 236A 214A 22C or w/e

Basically combos that do not really require jump-cancels, dashing, j.214A whiff cancelling, etc. Basically combos that you can just kind of mash out without worrying about dropping it at all.

Advanced would use techniques such as instant air dashing, TIMED jump-cancels (not the freebie easy ones).

Also Batousai, can you come up with combos for 2C COUNTERHIT, as well as combos starting with 6A and 2B? Thanks in advance!

PS, I'll be updating combo compilation thread today with Batousai's summarized combos.

[BatousaiJ]

Alright- here we go.

Note that the reason why I'm listing this is because while it's very easy to say what's "advanced" and "beginner", it's more helpful to know why something is considered difficult/advanced.

On with the difficulty awareness...guideline...of doom.

Reoccurring links that adds difficulty to a combo-

623C > j.214A > 2CC/214D = The j.214A must be inputted the moment the 623C connects in order to continue most of the combos that use this link, too early will result in the input not being registered, too late will make it so you can't follow up with 214D/2CC afterwards. The 2CC requires the use of quick dashing after landing off j.214A whiff along with precise timing to input 2CC to let the second hit of 2CC to connect. While the first hit of 2CC's timing is very lenient, the second hit will become teachable if it's not done just right. Add to that the difference in required distance dash depending on the hits that come before the 623C and wonky tall/short hitbox of various characters, this is a deceptively difficult link to get down consistently. Hence the existence of the 2C > jc j.C link. The 214D link is useful in a lot of scenarios as well and more or less, you need to be precise in the j.214A whiff and then immediately input the 214D after you land.

Still, it is a crucial part of a lot of combos including our signature BnB and should be learned.

214D > 2CC > IAD j.CC> 5B > 2CC = A brand new combo extension for Tsubaki in CS 2 and a big part of many combos. First off, it matters greatly how high you connect the 2CC. If hit too high, your IAD will simply go under him, if too low, you will not have enough time to connect the j.CC to continue the combo. You can initiate the IAD in a few ways but I've found tapping 9 the moment the second hit of 2CC connects will buffer it in and all you have to do is tap 66 at that point to dash forward. The biggest cornerstone of timing outside of the height where you land that first 2CC in this case is the timing in between the first and second hit of j.CC. The first hit should be done rather quickly after the IAD has initialized but the second hit should be delayed a fair bit so you can land and go directly into 5B while they're still in hitstun. Refer to the tutorial and combo videos in the videos thread for visual reference.

When starting off, practice IAD combos with 214D > 2CC starter till you get the timing as it has more hitstun than many other starters and will give you a good idea for the timing of the inputs.

x > 2CC > 22C > dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B = This is a common corner ender that adds damage and meter gain to many corner combos but there is something to know as it adds a bit of unsuspecting difficulty. The 22C must be charged long enough in many cases to give you enough time for you to get that dash 5C to pick up. If done too early, they'll be able to tech immediately, done too late and they'll tech in the air before the 22C connects. Also, 5C does not pick up on Jin because of his wonky sliding hitbox(the real reason why he's S-tier IMO) and this ender will never work on him. Lastly, he 22B also needs to be charged just enough if you want to gain the benefit of untechable time to get some 5D charge safely. While you do get more damage/meter with this corner specific ender, note that it adds difficulty in the way of precise timing to take maximum advantage of untechable time which you wouldn't really have to worry about if you went straight 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B ender.

-------

Those are the three important things to keep in mind that you'll see popping up constantly in all her variations of combos. The sooner you understand and conquer them, the more consistent your play will become.

Alright, moving on to combos.

To satisfy Ginseng's apparent boner for 2C CH, let's start with those(aha).

2C CH no charge

Anywhere

2C CH > dash 5C > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [2824 damage, 28 meter gain] (replace 5C with 5B if 2C CH starts out low]

Corner

2C CH > 5C > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 22C > dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3030 damage, 35 meter gain] (replace 5C with 5B if 2C CH starts out low]

1 Charge

Anywhere

CH 2C-C > 236D > dash 2CC > > IAD j.CC > 5B > 2CC > 236C > 214C > 22C [3036 damage, 31 meter gain](full screen carry)

Corner

2C CH > 5C > 2CC > jc j.C > j.C > j.214D > 5CC > 2CC > 22C > dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3357 damage, 40 meter gain](replace 5C with 5B if 2C CH starts out low]

2 Charge

Corner

2C CH > 5C > 2CC > 214D > 6CC > j.214D > 5CC > 2CC > 22C > dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3895 damage, 46 meter gain](replace 5C with 5B if 2C CH starts out low)

to be continued...

Edited May 11, 2011 by BatousaiJ

[Ginseng]

Hey, 2C is quite an important move. Even more important now that it is JUMP-cancellable :D

EDIT: How do you feel about the 2CC > 236B timing on her 0 charge BnB? The one with the j.214A whiff dash 2CC link?

Edited May 11, 2011 by Ginseng

[BatousaiJ]

EDIT: How do you feel about the 2CC > 236B timing on her 0 charge BnB? The one with the j.214A whiff dash 2CC link?

It's kind of ass. I'm still not 100% on it because once I get pretty comfortable doing it vs one particular character off of one series link 2A > 5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A for example, I switch to a different dummy and then I lose the timing a little.

Especially if I end up changing the hits that come before 623C > j.214A like 6A > 5CC > 623C > j.214A and etc.

I've been doing it a different way a lately which has helped my consistency some but I'm doing some testing to make sure it's viable against all characters/situations at the moment.

Continuing-

6A stater

Anywhere

6A > 5CC > 6BB > 236C > 214C > 22C [2015 damage, 17 meter gain]

6A > 5CC > 6B > 623C > j.214A > dash 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [2454 damage, 23 meter gain]

Corner

6A > 5CC > 6BB > 22C > 6C > 236B > 214B > 22B [2304 damage, 24 meter gain]

6A > 5CC > 6B > 623C > j.214A > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [2721 damage, 31 meter gain]

6A starter, 1 charge

Anywhere

6A > 5CC > 6BB > 22C > 236D > dash 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [2467 damage, 28 meter gain](full screen carry)

6A > 6CC > 6B > 623C > j.214A > dash 2CC > 236D> dash 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B [2900 damage, 31 meter gain](full screen carry)

Corner

6A > 5CC > 6B > 623C > j.214A > 2C > jc j.C > j.214D > 5CC > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3218 damage, 41 meter gain]

6A starter, 2 charge

Corner

6A > 5CC > 6B > 623C > j.214A >214D > 6CC > jc j.214D >5CC > 2CC > 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B [3696 damage, 48 meter gain]

to be continued...

[pktazn]

I'll update the first few posts with the combos and explanation of the combo links you've put up when I get back from work and whatnot unless Ginseng gets to it first haha.

Thanks a bunch for all the work you're doing for Tsubaki's combos Batousai :]