[CS2] Tsubaki Tutorial Video

[Ginseng]

Yes that is what I have in mind for the video in general. I will most likely simplify everything to that sort of template after everyone has contributed information. Btw you should totally represent Tsubaki since I never go to events LOL.

[Airk]

Blockstrings would definitely be a good category to put in the guide. And right. Error corrections, incoming sometime soon.

[STenSatsu]

Yes that is what I have in mind for the video in general. I will most likely simplify everything to that sort of template after everyone has contributed information. Btw you should totally represent Tsubaki since I never go to events LOL.

Every BB event I go to! =P Hopefully I can regularly get the first weekend off of work for NCI.

[Airk]

Guide update, section 1. Some of this stuff is marked "May want to" - those are things that I think would be nice to have, but if you're worried about being too wordy, you can omit.

General:

I'd replace any references to "Air unblockable" with "require barrier to be blocked in the air". It's confusing otherwise, IMHO.

a) Normals:

2A - may want to add that it's plus on block

6A - add that it grounds airborn opponents

2B - may want to add that you can gatling to a low or a high from here

6B - worth mentioning that it's plus on block

6BB - Does this REALLY miss when 6B hits? I always thought the problem with 6BB was that trying to gatling from it to 5CC never worked. Also, change to note that it's a low hit now

5C - Might be worth mentioning that it's a strong combo starter now if you can land it

6C - mention that this is jump cancellable

3CC - is not special cancellable. In order to follow this up, you must Rapid Cancel.

B) Drives:

5D - doesn't really have the "slowest" recovery anymore. Also, might want to note that it stops charging automatically after filling 1.5 stocks

2D - doesn't really "charge the slowest" anymore, because it speeds up a LOT after 1 second. Also, has NO recovery now, not "fastest" recovery.

j.D - might want to note that if you charge all the way to the ground, you get more recovery than with any other drive

In terms of recovery should really be 2D > 5D > j.D

In terms of charging speed it's hard to say because of how 2D and 5D work now.

C) Specials:

"Generally" heavier button specials do more damage, i.e. D > C > B >A

Should probably just remove the about C versions "may guard break" - that's pretty much covered by the next line

Adjust "all non-D specials can be cancelled to D specials" to "Most non-D specials can be..." since 22X and j.214X can't be D cancelled.

236A/B/C/D - should note that these are safe on block if spaced properly (i.e. hitting towards the end of the animation) and the C version, at least, can be comboed from on hit. (Can someone confirm that you can't combo from A or B?)

214A/B/C/D - Should note that travel distance is affected by button too (I think?). Remove the bit about "D-version also has invincibility frames". Add "All versions have Head/Body invulnerability for part of the startup (not immediately), D version has it until hit."

22A/B/C/D - Should note that D version can be comboed off in the corner OR by using another charge for 236D (Does it even need to be D?) May also wish to note that C version is plus on block, DEFINITELY note that B version has projectile invulnerability

623A/B/C/D - The bit about "only the D version has invulnerability" has never been right. x.x A version has frame 1 invulnerability, D version has invulnerability until it hits, B version has invulnerability once it gets off the ground. May want to note that the D version is not a projectile.

D) Distortions and Astrals:

236236C needs to be seperated from 236236D. 236236 C now has invulnerability until after the first hitting frame making it VERY reliable as a reversal super.

236236D should probably read "Advancing version of 236236C, uses all charges. No invulnerability, but airborne shortly after startup. Damage depends on the number of charges used - mostly only used at the end of 214214D combos."

631246C - May want to add that it's got tons of invulnerability. Also change the combo example from "After 22D" to "After 22A/B/C/D" (Mwahaha)

F) Air unblockables - you list 5BB twice and don't list 5CC at all. Instead of doing this list, you should probably just say "All of Tsubaki's ground normals except 5A and 2A require barrier to be blocked in the air" (Yes, all of them)

[pktazn]

These are just some random things I thought up while I was munching on my Frosted Rice Krispies cereal so they're not very detailed or impressive.

For her character breakdown Tsubaki would mostly be considered a close-range, rush-down fighter with mix-up right?

For strengths she has decent pressure now, and her faster charging helps her mix-up. She seems to have a pretty good ground to ground, ground to air game once she gets a hit from what I've seen. I would think another strength is how flexible her combos are.

I was thinking of some weaknesses for Tsubaki and thought maybe air to air could be mentioned in it. It doesn't seem like she can do well if it's purely an air fight. I don't know if it's just me but she also doesn't seem to be have a lot of ways to approach someone who continuously blocks low except with either 6A, j.C (this is the most common way I see Tsu players approach opponents blocking low in all honesty) or getting a fully charged 22D in their blockstring so they have to be tricky. I dunno if that's worth mentioning though, it was just something that popped up in my head.

[Ginseng]

Thanks Airk, made all the necessary updates, if it's still unsatisfactory to you, let me know! Copied Airk's guide update post to General Discussion, since it kind of belongs there as well. Leaving it here in order to have more options to brainstorm, etc.

I would consider Tsubaki a close-ranged, rush-down fighter, who uses a few key tools in order to initiate that. 5B pokes allow her opponents to block, while opening up other options to get in or to initiate pressure. Charging at max range allows opponents to make decisions on what they do about that. With the way she is, opponents can really get punished for letting her charge, as any hit in CS2 has the potential to do serious damage.

If any one wants to make any sample templates or w/e, that would be great!

[BatousaiJ]

In terms of recovery should really be 2D > 5D > j.D

In terms of charging speed it's hard to say because of how 2D and 5D work now.

C) Specials:

236A/B/C/D - should note that these are safe on block if spaced properly (i.e. hitting towards the end of the animation) and the C version, at least, can be comboed from on hit. (Can someone confirm that you can't combo from A or B?)

214A/B/C/D - Should note that travel distance is affected by button too (I think?). Remove the bit about "D-version also has invincibility frames". Add "All versions have Head/Body invulnerability for part of the startup (not immediately), D version has it until hit."

22A/B/C/D - Should note that D version can be comboed off in the corner OR by using another charge for 236D (Does it even need to be D?) May also wish to note that C version is plus on block, DEFINITELY note that B version has projectile invulnerability

The D charge moves are situational uses in that when you plan on charging for a moment, it's better to use 5D without question, if you plan on charging for more than a second than 2D gains value(after strong knockaway with rc or just plain against Tager).

j.D slows down after the initial 1 charge or so in the air as well.

It's true that you can combo off of 236C but not the other variations(minus D, ofcourse).

You can follow up 22D with 236C only on wonky OTG hitbox characters like Rachel outside of corners.

The biggest note and perhaps misconception, 22B doesn't have the same projectile invinc as it used to. I can't sit there charging 22B with lambchops shooting swords at me and armor it. Can't armor noel's drive moves either. What they mean by project piercing is that it can deflect and negate certain projectile coming at you with the attack's hit box it self.

Tested against Rachel when she's throwing her cat at you, if you 22B and the cat and the attacking hit box connect, the cat is deflected and lands away from you. So more or less, your 22B attacking hit box is like Hakumen's sword. Pretty useless compared to super armor projectile invinc it once had.

214X invinc frames are all different as well in their duration. Two share the same time where it begins but not when it ends.

Edited May 4, 2011 by BatousaiJ

[Airk]

That seems very accurate to my observations - especially the air-to-air one. Tsubaki definitely seems to have issues with characters that jump around like crazy to avoid having to play with her on the ground - she doesn't really have any tools to chase them up there.

She can also mix in throws for her ground game - since she's up close for most of her attacks anyway, and has a decent kara throw, this is a pretty real threat, though if the opponent breaks the throw she loses pressure. Although maybe it'd be safe to do a 236A from that range. Probably.

[Ginseng]

Yea, I adjusted the changes based on my knowledge rather than completely depending on it. When I made the CS2 guide, I just copy pasted CS1 for the template hahaha.

That seems very accurate to my observations - especially the air-to-air one. Tsubaki definitely seems to have issues with characters that jump around like crazy to avoid having to play with her on the ground - she doesn't really have any tools to chase them up there.

She can also mix in throws for her ground game - since she's up close for most of her attacks anyway, and has a decent kara throw, this is a pretty real threat, though if the opponent breaks the throw she loses pressure. Although maybe it'd be safe to do a 236A from that range. Probably.

Tsubaki has problems vs air-heavy characters like Arakune and Tao. In those matchups, it really depends on whether she can hit them on block. If she can get them in blockstun, things get easier.

236A should never be an option to use after a throw break, it's too risky and slow on startup to really be worth using. Kara throw is good, but not something to completely depend on.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Ginseng

[Airk]

j.D slows down after the initial 1 charge or so in the air as well.

It's a comparatively small change though, so I didn't feel a need to note it.

It's true that you can combo off of 236C but not the other variations(minus D, ofcourse).

wacky.

The biggest note and perhaps misconception, 22B doesn't have the same projectile invinc as it used to. I can't sit there charging 22B with lambchops shooting swords at me and armor it. Can't armor noel's drive moves either. What they mean by project piercing is that it can deflect and negate certain projectile coming at you with the attack's hit box it self.

Tested against Rachel when she's throwing her cat at you, if you 22B and the cat and the attacking hit box connect, the cat is deflected and lands away from you. So more or less, your 22B attacking hit box is like Hakumen's sword. Pretty useless compared to super armor projectile invinc it once had.

So...sad. ;_;

214X invinc frames are all different as well in their duration. Two share the same time where it begins but not when it ends.

Yeah; I tried to summarize this as best I could; They all have invulnerability for part of the startup. Only 214D has invulnerability all the way to the hit, and depending on which move it is, there is more or less startup and invuln time. x.x Was I right that the different versions travel different distances? Also, is there a problem with hitting with 6BB after 6B ever?

[Rhiya]

It's true that you can combo off of 236C but not the other variations(minus D, ofcourse).

Please say this is excluding weak special-cancel combos (i.e. 236a>214a>22x).

If we can't even do that, just wut

The biggest note and perhaps misconception, 22B doesn't have the same projectile invinc as it used to. I can't sit there charging 22B with lambchops shooting swords at me and armor it. Can't armor noel's drive moves either. What they mean by project piercing is that it can deflect and negate certain projectile coming at you with the attack's hit box it self.

Tested against Rachel when she's throwing her cat at you, if you 22B and the cat and the attacking hit box connect, the cat is deflected and lands away from you. So more or less, your 22B attacking hit box is like Hakumen's sword. Pretty useless compared to super armor projectile invinc it once had.

Rachel's lobelias ALWAYS reflected, even in CS1.

My only offline comp is a Rachel player, so I've had plenty of experience with that >_>

[Airk]

Please say this is excluding weak special-cancel combos (i.e. 236a>214a>22x).

Oh definitely; The reason you can't combo with normals off of 236A/B is that the hitstun isn't long enough. (236A for example only has 21 frames of hitstun, so even if you hit on the last active frame, you have 18 frames of recovery before you can start your next attack, so even 2A comes out too slowly. 236C though, has 29 frames of hitstun, and the same 18 frames of recovery, so if you space it right (or get a counter hit, or hit someone crouching) you have enough frames for 5B. Of course, comboing from there to 2A/5A requires less precision in the spacing.) But since cancelling into followup specials is a cancel, those recovery frames don't get applied and you have tons (relatively) of time to combo afterwards. (And you can use a D attack to make it into a real combo, I think)

Also, I guess we need to remove the line from the guide that says the B versions of her moves can go through projectiles, since none of them actually really do that anymore. Profound...sadness. -_-

[pktazn]

I could have sworn I saw Tsubaki use B moves (mostly 214B) to get through projectiles. I think they're still there, they just changed so there's no need to completely remove it. It just depends on the move being used.

EDIT: Looking at the guide it does say that it's dependent on the move already *shoots self for not reading it beforehand and simply reiterating what's been said*

Edited May 4, 2011 by pktazn

[Ginseng]

Okay, let's get back on topic. Let's brainstorm for the video shall we? Also if you wish to contribute certain parts, make sure to make note of which part of the template you're inputting on.

[pktazn]

Sorry about that. I guess my last post on page 3 would probably go with the introduction template with adjustments of course. For the video we're just trying to make a quick, informative summary of Tsubaki and her moves right? Is there any idea of how long the video would be?

[Ginseng]

We don't know how long the videos will be exactly, but the videos will cover how to play the characters on the most part. Any very-specific information will be completely left out on the most part. Video length will depend on how much content each character is given. The videos are meant to be tutorials, not complete strategy guides on how to play the character. It is supposed to lead players into our character-specific forums for more in-depth information if they decide to use those characters.

[BatousaiJ]

I'll compile a list of BnB combos from charges ranging from 1-3 that put an balanced emphasis between damage, meter gain and positional advantage.

Probably take the approach of one variation for mid-screen and one for corner.

The only problem being which starters should I cover? Standard 2A/5B starter stuff? CH 5C? 236D, 22D, there are so many ways one could start a combo that if I wanted to cover all of them, it would take a long time- longer then we'd want for a beginner friendly tutorial video anyhow.

What starters do you think I should cover?

[Ginseng]

I say 5B and and some of her D specials. Don't worry about counterhit combos, those are slightly more advanced. Cover 5B combos that can be done from a jab, ignore the 5B combos that can't be done from a jab. Do an anti-air combo and throw combo as well.

[pktazn]

For breakdowns would it be listed as something like (This is just a sample and if you want to edit it you should lol)

Breakdown of Normals:

5B, 5C, 2C (anything I missed) are anti-airs

j.C is mostly used to approach opponents

... Something like that?

[Airk]

I think if this is going to be for getting beginners up to speed, it's worth spending the the ~1 minute to go over something like:

<some video of 5A>: 5a is a basic jab, good for close up pressure

<Some video of 2A>: 2A is a crouching jab, generally preferable to 5A

<some video of 6A>: 6A is Tsubaki's overhead, and is used for mixup off of 5B or 2B.

<some video of 5B>: 5B is Tsubaki's best poke, spacing tool, and go-to general purpose attack

etc.

You COULD choose to just hit the "highlights" but I figure each section only needs to be about 5 seconds long, so it's worth showing people what moves look like and give a few basic tips for usage.

BattousaiJ - I'd like if you could give one specific "punish" combo. probably no more than 2 charges, but starting with a 'less common' starter. Don't worry about counterhit stuff or anything necessarily, but it's really helpful to have a go-to for "I just blocked a randon Daifunka, and I want to put the hurt on this guy" or similar situations. They don't crop up quite as much in BB as they do in SF4, but a punish combo is still a good thing to have in your repertoire - it could start with a 5C or a naked 22D. For the rest of the combos, I agree with Ginseng that it's best to show combos that can start with a 2A/5B or a 6A. Maybe mix in one 22D corner combo somewhere too.

[Ginseng]

By the way, if you guys don't know already, we are NOT making the video. We are just supplying a template with possible information for SpiritJuice to choose from. He himself will decide what should be put in the video.

I did not specifically ask for a punish combo because it's not the biggest point of the tutorial. Early-level punish combos can just be regular combos in this case. Especially since in CS2, Tsubaki's damage output has increased tremendously outside of CH, so I personally feel there isn't much of a need for a 5C punish combo in a beginner-level tutorial video.

[BatousaiJ]

By the way, if you guys don't know already, we are NOT making the video. We are just supplying a template with possible information for SpiritJuice to choose from. He himself will decide what should be put in the video.

I did not specifically ask for a punish combo because it's not the biggest point of the tutorial. Early-level punish combos can just be regular combos in this case. Especially since in CS2, Tsubaki's damage output has increased tremendously outside of CH, so I personally feel there isn't much of a need for a 5C punish combo in a beginner-level tutorial video.

Oh? I thought we were making it.

This changes things since I had some ideas here and there about the video itself.

No big whoop.

I'm working on a "ideal" list of combos but I'm trying to do the runs on the matchups to ensure accuracy and you guys wouldn't believe the wonky hitboxes that makes seemingly bulletproff combos not work on certain characters.

I'm not just talking about Tager either, it makes things really needlessly difficult and when I add to that the factor of enemies that are hit while crouched it's a damn nightmare.

[pktazn]

We are just supplying a template with possible information for SpiritJuice to choose from. He himself will decide what should be put in the video.

Oh okay, that makes it easier to figure how set-up things haha! I think he said he'd prefer it if it was text based instead of using voices so that helps in figuring out how to explain the moves.

[Airk]

I wish he'd provide us with a format to work in, but...whatever. I guess we just need to polish things a little more.

How much info do we want to provide here? Does the guide have enough info on normals? Specials?

I'd like to expand the "strategy" section a bit...

[Ginseng]

If you want to expand it, go for it. I'm just posting things I see based on my own experiences when I played CS1. CS2 will obviously be able to use all these tricks as well, except they are much more solid. Tsubaki does not need to rely on silly gimmicks to win in CS2.

I don't think we should list EVERY normal. That's way too much clutter. Just put in key normals, key moves, key tricks that Tsubaki players will definitely use.