[CS2] Noel vs. Bang

[Chaoschao222]

Matchup Ranking: Dunno yet

Recommended Playstyle:

RTSD, put him on the defensive, he'll want to jump around a lot like the fucking loud ninja that he is, but you don't want to let up; do not let him rush you down, Bang is good up close, but not great at defense. Do not be mindless about it, though.

General Strategy:

Much like with Tao, Bang has very high mobility and you're going to need to be both patient, yet aggressive if you want to properly deal with him. Pressuring Bang can often be an obnoxious and difficult thing to do, however once you've gotten 'up in there', he doesn't have a whole lot of answers to Noel's options. Doing stagger pressure on Bang can be effective, but due to his various guard point-having Drives, you should be cautious.

Your Best Tools(For This Matchup):

Airgrab; Bang spends a lot of the time in the air, when runnin' away, or approaching, and timing witchcraft an airgrab can stuff some of his aerial options. Still, jumping around like a Hispanic Pogostick and throwing grabs out at random while Bang has nails isn't advised, so be smart and careful when going for airgrabs.

6A; As said before, Bang is in the air quite a bit, and Noel's air-to-air is a joke, so try to keep him grounded and hit him with an AA 6A if he's foolish with his approaches from the air.

3C; While this may not at first seem like the 'best' of tools, Noel's are pretty infamous for 2D, which Bang can beat with his own. However, Bang's 2D loses to lows, so if you can condition an opponent Bang into believing you'll drive at x moment, you can counter him with 3C instead. Further, if 6B is GP blocked by 2D, you can go into 3C and hit him.

Has A DP?: No; drives however, while not officially DPs, work sorta as pseudo-reversals, though they are not very good at it.

Has A DP With Heat?: Ashura (big boom explosion), can be RC'd afterwards for a more damage. Daifunka (SUPER BANGU charge), easy to punish on block.

Things To Look Out For:

Ashura; Ashura's fairly easy to bait or block, but you need to be conscious of Bang's heat to do so. With 100 heat, there's a chance they might even try it twice, so be wary of that possibility as well.

Bumpers; Bang's movement can already be a pain to deal with, and if you aren't prepared when his bumpers come into play you can get overwhelmed quickly. Always be aware of where Bang has his bumpers set up, try to remain away from them while forcing Bang to your position.

D Nails; Bang's D nails are excellent for allowing him to get in on you, but the real trouble that you should be alert about is what he'll do after you've blocked the nails (you did block them... right?). Due to his limited nail supply though, and that said nails are used for combos and bumper setup, you may not have to worry about D Nails too much.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Note: I do not have many Bang playing friends, so I myself will not be able to contribute a lot to this thread, I'm counting on others to supply info, and I will compile it accordingly.

Thanks Hexa

n

oid for putting some effort into your response and making a nigga have to update stuff

Edited September 11, 2011 by Chaoschao222

[Mr. Kimura]

I'll get this started, though I shouldn't cause this matchup sucks for Bang, its gone back to CT status.

As far as normals go, here is some data:

5A: 0 , special cancel, jump cancel

5B : -2, special cancel , jump cancel

2B : -6, special cancel , jump cancel

2C : -4, hits low, special cancel

You can probably IB this stuff and stop whats happening next, since these moves all lead to slower moves. 623B has 13 frames of startup, and 6A starts up at 17. Just watch out for jump cancels, but you all have an anti air.

All of his drives are punishable, and only one I think can be jump canceled on block, which is 2D.

As far as his pressure goes, his stagger isn't very good. But he does have lots of low options. Most Bangs will try to hit confirm now with 5A 2A (2A) (mid, low, low) but this takes away damage, and often makes combos drop early.

Some strings include: 5A>2A>2A (mid, low, low), 5A>5C>2C/6A (mid, high, low), 5A>5B>2C (mid, mid, low), 5A>2A>5C (mid, low, high) and similar variances. If we hit you midscreen, its not much of a threat. Unless we're somewhat close to the corner to get a wallbounce, its not even worth sweating. In the corner, thats a different story. The main thing to worry about is his tick throws, namely command throw, which once again can really only be useful in the corner unless Bang has 100 Heat to Rapid to Daifunka (which doesn't do as much damage anymore, and it can't be combo'd after). His only plus frame move in his mixup is 6A, which is +1. His other overhead is harder to connect now and only combos on counterhit or a Rapid. Most signs of a tick throw are usually a 5A or 2A, but it can still whiff unless he's right in your face. Also, TK'd nails are +6 to his advantage, however depending on how far away he is, its not entirely useful.

To approach him: Bang has some of the shortest normals in the game. His 5B is still good and all but its not Ragna's 5B. Usually Bangs will jump around a lot to try and feel for an opening. Nails are still a strong part of his approach but they don't guarantee anything. His j.B is a good air to air poke and has some active frames on it (5). His j.C isn't active for very long and hasn't been very reliable in my experience. His air to ground game seems average so far. The best thing to do would be to try to contain Bang, he's good when he's up close to you but not on the defensive. He lacks anti-airs, his 5A is no longer reliable for a quick anti-air, 5C is too slow, and 2D gets beaten by lows and throws. His 5A can still get him out of pressure but its not reliable. Guard points are the same in terms of reliability, though 6D should have guard point on frame one. As far as his supers, bait them, though good Bangs won't throw them out cause they tend to make matters worse if blocked. Just don't let him rush in mindlessly, and get him on the defensive. Give Bang no room to breathe and force bad movements (you damn Noel players get the stupidest damage off of Drive).

As far as FRKZ goes, just know everything except 3C and 6B are dash cancelable. His backdash is nerfed, and he also has no choice but to barrier to block. Though I doubt you'll find anyone on netplay that actually knows how to use it. He has to get the seals first, after all.

I hope this is good for starters. Though I'd rather have someone more experienced come in and confirm anything, this was all off the top of my head.

[Chaoschao222]

So would you say that an RTSD playstyle would be a good way to be fighting Bang?

[Mr. Kimura]

Get in before he gets to you? Could work. I think Noel is faster than Bang after all, and you can probably outpoke him. Though if he sees you running at him he might guardpoint or something, or try to 5A/5B you.

[SkyKing]

My still revolves around waiting if he will waste nails or not, and if he uses bumpers. If I see bumpers, I like to hover around that placement to see if he want to attack me out of that space and then counter accordingly.

[HexaNoid]

General Strategy

This match-up feels very similar to the Tao one in that Bang's mobility is very good and you have to be a mix of patient and aggressive when dealing with him. Keeping the pressure on Bang can often prove to be a difficult task, but once you're in his personal space he doesn't have a lot of answers to Noel's options. Stagger pressure on Bang can be effective in places, but make sure you're cautious of his drives which all have guard point attributes for different areas of his body.

Best Tools

j.B+C - Bangs will often be in the air when both trying to escape and approach Noel and a well-timed air throw can stuff a few of his aerial options. Jumping around and throwing out grabs while he has nails isn't the best idea though, so be careful of when and where you use this.

6A - As previously mentioned, Bang uses the air a lot and Noel will often lose to him in the air, so keep the game on the ground or stay down and AA him with 6A if he's not careful about his aerial approaches.

3C - Hear me out first! With the attached stigma of Noel = lol2D, some Bangs are pretty inclined to use their own 2D to beat out ours. However, that loses to low attacks which means that if you can condition your opponent into thinking you're going to use a drive after a certain situation, you can counter with a 3C instead. Also, if a 6B is blocked by a GP 2D, you can go straight into 3C to beat him out.

Things To Look Out For

Ashura - While easy to bait/block, you still need to make sure you are aware of Bang's heat in order to do so. 100 heat means he can and might try and do it twice so be careful of this too.

Bumpers - Bang's movement can be troublesome enough as it is and the extra mobility provided by his bumpers can often be over-whelming if you're not careful. Be aware of the positions of Bang's bumpers and try and keep away from them when he's placed them and force him to move to your new location.

D Nails - Bang's D nails provide a great way for him to get in on you but you should be more wary of what he's going to do after you've blocked the nails than the nails themselves. Remember though, Bang can only use D nails a maximum of 4 times and considering he has to use nails for combos and setting up bumpers too, you may not have to worry about these too much.

[Chiizu]

About his guardpoints, while 2D CH nets him lotsa damage, I think the most dangerous one is 6D for a simple reason really. 6D's GP protects him from any mid/low blows, and I can hardly imagine anyone trying to sneak an overhead in while the GP is active. One thing you definitely can do is 2D over his 6D though. It's way risky but better than getting CH'd for free, right?

[LunaKage]

About his guardpoints, while 2D CH nets him lotsa damage, I think the most dangerous one is 6D for a simple reason really. 6D's GP protects him from any mid/low blows, and I can hardly imagine anyone trying to sneak an overhead in while the GP is active. One thing you definitely can do is 2D over his 6D though. It's way risky but better than getting CH'd for free, right?

5A mash beats his 6D pretty hard.

[Chiizu]

Does it? I must have been doing it wrong then.

[Sahgren]

6D doesn't have any GP after frame 14. Since it has 24 frames of startup, 5A mash should hit it in that 10 frame gap. Alternatively, if you can somehow confirm that they're using 6D immediately, you can go into 5B instead for the same thing + range.

[HexaNoid]

Reposting this here so it doesn't get lost in NVG.

The Bang/Noel matchup is still quite tough for me personally' date=' not only is it a matchup that is heavily momentum based, but it also comes down to the fact that, without FRKZ, Bang is just flat outdamaged by Noel. On the other hand, i've found that j.B rapes her pretty hard due to the nice range and active frames on it, and Bang's command grabs can still cause a headache. But, due to Noel having usable normals now which can allow her to maintain pressure fairly easily, I've always found it difficult to get away from her optimal range without running the risk of eating some potentially big damage due to Bang's severe lack of defensive options without 50 heat. Plus, the fact that he has no reliable anti-air which he can just stick out makes every pressure string a bit of a gamble due to the threat of 2d/4d etc. Nothing you can't adapt to though, you just have to change your playstyle to fit the Noel your playing, which is not too much to ask in my honest opinion.[/quote']

[Chazmobile]

Right as promised I shall try and give you as much information I know about this matchup. If my info is wrong in any way please correct me. Here we go:

Quick Summary:

A heavily momentum based matchup, once Bang gets going, he can be quite hard to stop if you don't fully understand his rushdown. However, this all begins to fall apart if you play intelligently and patiently against him. Once you find that opening and get him blocking YOU, the game gets ugly for the Hero of Justice. Beware of the corner though, Bang begins to truly shine there and becomes a legitimately scary character, try to avoid getting trapped in the corner against him as much as possible.

What can Bang do?

Bang, as you all know, is a character heavily fixated on rushing his opponent down and staying there. Fortunately, he was smacked around by the nerf bat quite a bit during his transition into CS2 meaning that his once overwhelming pressure is now relatively easy to escape once you get to grips with his normals. BUT, good Bang players will try to never be predictable with their blockstrings and pressure. This is both a blessing and a curse, it is a blessing because once you start getting used to his gimmicks and mixups, it becomes increasingly easier to find an opening to counter attack or escape, it is a curse because the seemingly 'random' pattern of varied blockstrings can keep you on your toes long enough for him to get a hit in and start his still very dangerous oki game.

Moves to watch out for:

2a: This is Bang's primary low mixup tool, it prorates pretty hard, but it does allow him to start his 'oki'. Beware, it gatlings twice into itself meaning that you should not start immediately blocking high after you block this move. Also gatlings into 2b for a big damage frametrap, 5c for the overhead, 2c for the third quick low and 5b for continued mixup options. Respect this move.

5a: Ah, how the mighty have fallen. This move had its startup nerfed to 6 frames and its hitbox properties changed slightly from CS1>CS2. Despite this, 5a is still a very strong move which has a variety of uses. First and foremost, it opens up nearly all of his mixup options when you block it, so be prepared to block for a bit once you see this make contact. Its proration, whilst it is worse than CS1, still leads to very respectable damage for a 5a so don't sniff at this move’s damage capabilities. An interesting and useful buff this normal HAS got however, is that it is now 0 on block. Couple this with its ability to hit crouchers, and this means that it functions as a universal frametrap which still catches a lot of people out to this day. Finally, though it has been weakened in this area, Bang's 5a still functions as an effective anti -air to Noel's relatively weak air-ground game. Sloppy jump-ins will get punished by competent Bangs. Again, respect this move.

6a: Bang’s only move with + frames, much faster startup from CS1, meaning that it is now one of Bang’s most useful tools for maintaining pressure. This move on CH allows him to link a 5b afterwards, thus leading to good damage; watch for frametraps. JCable on block.

5c: Bang’s primary overhead and the one you are going to be seeing used most often. A tad on the slow side at 18 frames, but it’s animation looks somewhat like 6a, meaning that a clever Bang can condition you to block low, before throwing one of these out; and vice versa. Midscreen it goes into very little damage without 50 meter (story of CS2 Bang’s life) and the combos usually send you flying across the screen, somewhat resetting the neutral game. In the corner it leads to good damage and knock down, so it’s pretty scary. Air unblockable so it will catch jumpouts, as well as allowing Bang to hit a 6d afterwards due to it hitting you in the air. Also FCs, but this attribute I’ve found to be pretty useless. JCable on block. Can chain into 6a for the plus frames, 2c for the quick low, or 6b for the sneaky double overhead.

5b: A long reaching punch which can be used as a semi-decent poke. Leads into big damage on hit and can also be used as a good anti air if you stick it out early. AUB, so this makes it very dangerous for Noel to jumpout during Bang’s pressure as 5b has a disgusting hitbox. This move is -2 on block, again meaning that it can be used for some pseudo-frametraps if you catch the player sleeping, if you see a Bang trying to stagger 5b, you can usually jump out before he has time to dash 5a you again. Notable chains include 5c, 2b which can be late chained, 6a and 2c.

2b: This move can be very scary in the right hands. It moves him forward a good distance and retracts very quickly, making it relatively safe to throw out as a poke. It also leads to very high damage (for Bang any way) on hit so frametraps involving this move can be dangerous. Chains into 5b and 2c and is JCable on block.

J.b: Already talked about this in my last post, but I feel it deserves a spot here.

6d: 6d(acidbro). In a massive turn of events, this move went from being Bang’s worst drive to arguably his best. Its speed has been significantly improved to 24 frames of startup and guardpoints from frame 1 to 14. It loses to overheads. Leads to big damage in the corner on both normal and CH, and can lead to big damage midscreen on CH. Incredibly unsafe on block, though most Bang’s will cancel it into SSUUPAAAH KUURASSHU to make it somewhat safe, and possibly even catch you not blocking/pushing buttons. So watch out for that.

2d: Now JC able on block, which means that meaty 2d is back and as nasty as ever, do not get caught by a CH one of these in the corner as it leads to 4k+ meterless and gives him up to 3 seals midscreen. 24 frame startup and guardpoint from frames 7-23, beating everything but lows, means that this is relatively easy to stuff, but still watch out for this move at all times.

Command throw: One of the big boys, incredibly good p1 on this move means that if Bang has 50 heat and is in the corner, he will go for the RC. Leads to absurd damage in the corner with the introduction of the C bumper loop and is quite hard to spot through the barrage of normals so keep on your toes. This move is also usable in the air, meaning that it is always advisable to neutral tech in the air if you don’t want an extra 2.5-3k tacked on after Bang has finished due to very nifty tech traps.

FRKZ: BANG BABA BAAAAANG, BAAAANGU DAMASHIIIII! Bang turns into a GG1 character and MvC2 Magneto combined but without blocking. Due to the lack of many Bang using this, most of you may find it very hard to adapt to this mode. Generally speaking, this makes Bang terrifying at all areas on the screen. If you find yourself facing a Bang in FRKZ, be prepared to deal with insane pressure and mixups, high damage off of any confirm anywhere on the screen leading to knockdown/super/both. The only advice I can offer here is pray a tad and watch the screen carefully. Once you hit him in this mode, it’s really hard for him to make a clean escape without getting hit again due to dashes having no invincibility I believe and they leave him in CH state. That being said, give your upmost respect to this move and try to stop him getting into it.

Ashura: In my opinion one of the, of not the, most practical and useful 50 meter reversals in the game. It is fully invincible, hits for a hefty 2.5k damage + knockdown in Bang’s favour and is practically safe on block due to the knockback. Has ridiculous vertical range and is AUB. Respect Bang on wakeup when he has 50 heat, he may just hit you with this.

General stuff:

Bang will be in the air a lot, he’s a ninja, it’s where he’s supposed to be. Normally, one would try to 6a him in order to anti air him and possibly start a free combo; but wait. If you see a Bang blatantly air dashing or jumping towards you, hold off the trigger finger for a second. Good Bang’s will use poison or exploding nail on reaction to your anti air to stuff it and start a pressure string/combo of their own. In this way they can condition you to stop anti airing his jump ins, don’t let them do this, keep a clear head and play smart, it’ll work out.

D nails, ah D nails. Many people are very intimidated by these babies, and for good reason. However, their frame advantage on block was nerfed quite a bit since CT and CS1, meaning that they do not function as pressure tools as well as they used to. I have been mashed out of D nails quite regularly, so keep this in mind. If a silly Bang thinks it is safe to just run up and 5a you after you’ve blocked nails from mid to full screen, throw out a 2a, 5a or 2b(?), he will get counter hit most of the time. Another thing to note is that they knock you down on air hit, giving Bang a free way to get in/oki if he is close enough.

Finally, you flat outdamage him. Crouching combos don’t really exist midscreen for the poor guy and his corner combo damage off of practical starters is mediocre at best. Command throw is an exception to this. You have arguably better pressure and normals than him and there isn’t much he can safely do against it without 50 meter. Once you get him locked down, keep him there, he has some of the highest mobility in the game with 2 jumps and an airdash or one jump and 2 airdashes, plus a very fast run; good movement by the Bang player can leave you feeling overwhelmed so make sure you keep the heat on.

I hope this helped

Matchup value:

In my honest opinion, 5.5-4.5 Noel. Possibly 6-4 Noel.

I have tried not to repeat what others have already said, apologies if I have.

[LunaKage]

lol You consider an 18 frame overhead slow? Try having our 24 frame overhead and we'll talk.

[huey253]

lol You consider an 18 frame overhead slow? Try having our 24 frame overhead and we'll talk.

actually.....

bang's 5C is actually hits overhead on frame 24 on the average character and possibly later on a smaller character such as...noel.

Isn't noel's drive overhead 21 frames anyways

edit: Noel's 3C is pretty low risk high reward vs bang. he gets almost nothing for punishing it in CS2 due to noel being in low profile during the recovery.

Edited September 14, 2011 by huey253

[Chazmobile]

you both look really dumb...

bang's 5C is actually hits overhead on frame 24 on the average character and possibly later on a smaller character such as...noel.

Isn't noel's drive overhead 21 frames anyways

Oops, good call Huey, I thought I put something like that in there but I obviously missed it.

[LunaKage]

you both look really dumb...

bang's 5C is actually hits overhead on frame 24 on the average character and possibly later on a smaller character such as...noel.

Isn't noel's drive overhead 21 frames anyways

Hey man, he said 18 frames and that's what I'm going by, but I guess you can call me dumb for believing a European :P

Noel's drive overhead is 21 frames yes, but she needs to be in drive to do it, and in drive after the initial hit you can usually 5A us out of any follow-up pretty easy, also Bang's 2D is very hard to bait while in drive as well.

[Chazmobile]

Hey man, he said 18 frames and that's what I'm going by, but I guess you can call me dumb for believing a European :P

Noel's drive overhead is 21 frames yes, but she needs to be in drive to do it, and in drive after the initial hit you can usually 5A us out of any follow-up pretty easy, also Bang's 2D is very hard to bait while in drive as well.

Hey man, just because us eurofags are bad at this game doesn't mean we can't do some stuff right. The startup of 5c is 18 frames, but I didn't take into account the downward motion of the move and the added frames that detail entails, which is why I am grateful for a more experienced bang player calling me out to make sure I am as accurate as possible.

[huey253]

Hey man, he said 18 frames and that's what I'm going by, but I guess you can call me dumb for believing a European :P

Noel's drive overhead is 21 frames yes, but she needs to be in drive to do it, and in drive after the initial hit you can usually 5A us out of any follow-up pretty easy, also Bang's 2D is very hard to bait while in drive as well.

yo, 4D and (maybe) 2D beats 5A during drive *mash* but they always beat 5A as drive starters. 2D is very effective againist noel drive. I also wouldn't say you could just hit her out of her 21 frame overhead, because... other than 5B 5C, bang's gatlings into 5C all can be stuffed by mash.

[LunaKage]

yo, 4D and (maybe) 2D beats 5A during drive *mash* but they always beat 5A as drive starters. 2D is very effective againist noel drive. I also wouldn't say you could just hit her out of her 21 frame overhead, because... other than 5B 5C, bang's gatlings into 5C all can be stuffed by mash.

5A mash maybe, but that 5C rapes our drives, also, what 5C setups does a good Bang like to use anyway? Because for the life of me I've only ever seen Meaty 5C or 5B > 5C.

[Chazmobile]

5A mash maybe, but that 5C rapes our drives, also, what 5C setups does a good Bang like to use anyway? Because for the life of me I've only ever seen Meaty 5C or 5B > 5C.

2a>5c sometimes works

5a>5c

Blocked J.c>land>5c

To name but a few.

[huey253]

5A mash maybe, but that 5C rapes our drives, also, what 5C setups does a good Bang like to use anyway? Because for the life of me I've only ever seen Meaty 5C or 5B > 5C.

they are kinda iffy...

5B 5C

5C delay dnails into 5B or 5C

meaty 5C

5C dash 5C

meaty 2D

this honestly looks like a troll list, but its pretty decent at stuffing ddddddddddd

honestly, I feel that i kinda just have to be feeling myself to always correctly call it all out. normally just stuffing it a couple times is enough.

tk command grabbing noel out of 2D is hype and practical.

also...my noel is pretty gdlike.

i don't use her drives at all though, because i didn't learn those combos.

[LunaKage]

Looks like we're gonna have to have some mirrors then lol

[huey253]

i could stream me peeing on c0R with my noel sometime :3

I xcopy Minami noel :3

Edited September 15, 2011 by huey253

[C0R]

You only posted that because you knew that I read this board.

[Chazmobile]

Woops, completely caught the wrong end of what we were discussing. Ignore my list, I thought you meant what 5c setups other than meaty 5c etc do people use to open others up. My bad, I was tired =/