[CS2] Noel vs. Tager

[LunaKage]

Matchup Ranking:

Recommended Playstyle:

Safe and then Random, don't let him read you.

General Strategy:

You're gonna want to stay away from him, but still get close, if that sounds dumb to you then you're correct, it is very very dumb. Your best bet is to 5B and hope it lands as a CH to go into 3C > haida for big damage. 2D will also go over his command grabs but will lose to every standing move he does(excluding 5B).

Your Best Tools(For This Matchup):

5B

Has A DP?: Not a DP but his 360A has invuln frames, so any attempt to face him on the ground will fail to 360A.

Has A DP With Heat?: Not a DP but his 720 is just like his 360A, and His MTW has guard point.

Things To Look Out For:

Grabs

Gadget Finger

Sledge

Grabs

Edited August 5, 2011 by LunaKage

[Runis]

This match is seriously a pain in the ass.

Any gimmick you might have that will work against other people, will not work on Tager.

Any string that is not -2 or better on ending you have to be careful about since IB 720 beats -3 or worse if you're predictable, -6 or worse and its a free B Buster. Assault through, Spring raid, 3C ending on 6A, are all free to B buster and moves like 6B, 5C and A Optic Barrel can be IB'd into 720. A Optic can be IB'd into B Buster, but that has bad range so if you space it buster will whiff, but 720 normally will not.

Be careful of holes in your strings. IB A buster will ruin your day.

If you get caught by Tager, chances are you're going to be screwed as his oki game is strong. Only salvation is that most of his nasty oki stuff is obscenely unsafe for him to try so most Tager players will stick to the safer options.

If you're gonna rush him, stay on him and don't let up for as long as possible, We're not Makoto so are pressure is mostly in bursts, but thankfully his over sized hitbox means we stay in his face for longer and can use strings we normally can't.

Using drives against Tager is very risky, so if you are going to use a drive string, be certain to space it and hit confirm ASAP. If the drive is blocked, 4D to get away as safely as you can, confirm he's not using sledge if he isn't - Optic Barrel, if he is - Assault Through. If you have 50 Meter, know the Tager can B Buster you on reaction to a 2D attempt you can be Ghetto and 2D RC 2D for a CH combo.

If you are not magnetized and he starts a block string on you, if you start to get to the range he will whiff, hold up back, chances are a 720 is coming. Really depends on the person playing Tager, but a whiffed poke into 720 is very stock standard.

Best advice I can think of for this match up is to be very patient. Tager players are the most patient people I've played, as long as you use your mobility to your advantage, poke him when you can and make it so that he has to come to you, the Tager match should be far more manageable. Just remember that Noel's guns are both made of metal, and polygrafted to her hands. Magnets are not your friend.

[LunaKage]

Pressuring Tager for extended periods of time is generally a bad idea, it's usually best to gatling into a jumpable move and IAD backwards, this is after hitting his guard for awhile of course, if the Tager feels like he needs to chase you down, you are doing it right, rushing him down for too long is like putting yourself on a silver platter for him to body you.

4D during blocked drive strings is free to Sledge, into combo, into gadget

Never just hold up back, Tager can hit you out of jump startup with anything he wants, into combo, into gadget.

2D > Rapid > 2D sounds hilarious but at the end of the day is still a terrible gimmick that Tagers can just sledge through, into combo, into gadget.

[Runis]

5A x N, 2B (6A 2B) 5B IAD back is your go to gattling. You can stay in his face for quite a while. When you throw in Staggered 5A and Jump forward>Air Back Dash/ Jump Forward j.A x N>j.B>5A x N, you get more pressure on Tager What I meant is, if you get an opportunity to pressure Tager, make it count as much as possible, because if you don't, you're not frustrating him, and if the Tager player isn't frustrated, you aren't playing against Tager correctly.

4D gets 'caught by the sledge' as in the sledge's projectile armour eats the 4D hitbox, but Assault Through on reaction to sledge start up will invul through the active frames before it gets to her hurt box.

Tager has nothing he can use to hit your out of jump at range, so I don't see why this is a problem if he pushes you to the point where he is going to WHIFF into a 720. Holding up back at point blank is stupid, I agree. But at the range where his fast attacks are going to whiff, you have less to be scared of.

Sledge does not work against 2D 5B, it beats it clean every time. If the Tager is 'Sledging' in reaction to a drive starter, they are taking a risk. B Buster will beat everything except X.D Rapid 2D/Spaced X.D 4D, Sledge will beat gimmicks/auto pilot but lose to most of the go to options on a blocked 2D. Why would the Tager player deliberately take the worse option when they see a drive?

[LunaKage]

Because if they see 2D Rapid 2D a smart Tager will never fall for it again, Tager gets his hits by successful reads, and personally if I rapid a Drive, I'm not making any plans on going back into it because I'm hoping they are mashing command grab. Your tactic will work on a Tager that's just mashing out 360s, but a good Tager will usually take the safe option and block, wait until they see you reloading or doing a drive finisher, and punish the finisher.

5C is crazy good at bating jump outs at ranges where his fast moves will wiff, and the best part is, even if you block the move in the air with barrier, Tager can usually just confirm and get some mag with 5D, or get some mag and close some distance with 2D. I usually wait until I'm out of 5C range before I try to jump, also at ranges where 5C will just barely clip you, you can usually backdash safer, just watch out because if he knows you'll do it he can spark you for free.

[Runis]

I said you can be "ghetto" implying its a gimmick that you toss out as a surprise, not a go to solution. 2D RC 2D is ghetto. You shouldn't be using drive block strings against tager but if you decide to be adventurous and do, its something you need to know that beats the tager go to option.

[A.X.I.S.]

Ok I wanna address some things.

If they are reacting to a drive starter then you are going to get hit because you pressed the D button, if they are assuming you are doing a drive before hand and do sledge outright then 5B that shit on reaction.

Next up Noel 2D loses to Tagers 5A/5C/sledge/j.B/all sorts of shit, its not a go to poke.

Noels 5A's range is so small that if she approaches Tager with it she will lose to his 5A, seriously his 5A is massive.

If you are gonna RC in drive then use a jump cancel normal and get the fuck away there is no reason you wanna risk drive on Tager, sledge beats a lot of your stuff and 360/720 beats the stuff sledge won't beat and he can reaction it.

All in all you want to space Tager, hit him for fucking up then keep the life lead.

Tager is out for blood he will not time you out he will kill you. (unless time is already running out.)

Edited June 15, 2011 by A.X.I.S.

[Runis]

Yeah I know 2D is not a go to poke - I mentioned its a ghetto thing IF YOU DECIDED TO USE A DRIVE, but depending on how you condition the Tager, you can use it as a cross-up tool. I doubt tager is going to use 5A if they block a 2D, standard response to 2D is to either sledge or buster, if they don't do a buster and you get 5B out, 5B will beat sledge because the first hit of 5B is not a projectile, if they then let the 5B go through, 4D with the added push block of 5B spaces noel in such a way that using assault through in reaction to sledge will work, and his throws will be out of range. If you're magnetized 720 will generally fuck you over but wtf are you doing being aggressive when magnetized.

Also, yes noel's 5A has bad range but if you get into that range Tager can't do anything until you get out of range of his 5A.

Also AXIS what is Tager reacting to exactly? The drive or the RC? If he's reacting to the drive, then he's guessing what you're doing next and you're guessing what he's doing. Yes noel's taking a huge risk, but Tager must also risk an option also. Sledge is a risk since 5B will beat it and lead into drive combo. Buster/720 is less of a risk but depending on spacing can be avoided. Buster beats all but a limited resource option. Saying that "2D rc 2D fails cause tager can yomi it" doesn't help, because this is already a yomi tactic, You're doing it expecting him to do a certain response.

[A.X.I.S.]

If you do a RC any smart person will just block and wait for you to do whatever.

Since Tager can just wait for Noel to do something that he can react to.

For example when I see Noel do 2D I don't auto sledge I wait to see if she is doing any drive mix up, if its not a projectile I 360 if it is a projectile I sledge.

The reason why 2D>RC is bad because 2D can be IB'd fairly easy and you are probably in the air meaning you don't have access to 5B, at that point Tager can just backdash you or 360 punish accordingly and even if you RC'd late when you hit the ground 5B is slow enough for any Tager to churn butter to.

Ask Luna I have 360A'd through 5B and grabbed him multiple times.

In truth Tager risk very little to nothing against Noels drive if he blocked the first hit, Noel is the one at risk and Tager can pretty much do whatever he wants.

Now if you ask me about how I feel about Noel on my side of things then it will just be a tl:dr lol.

[GunslingerSonic]

Why don't you just have a patience game against Tagers?

Just wait for them to strike when they are within 5B's Range, Poke him.

Don't Jump. He's gonna AC your ass.

Don't run. If he does a Standing 360, its your ass.

Don't use C Attacks, Chain Revolver, or anything else that is consider Projectiles. He will Sledge it. And it will eat it.

6A on Charge and Voltic Charges can eat Projectiles as well.

I like to use 2B on them then follow it up with 6A, 6C, yatta yatta.....

6A on Charge and Voltic Charge lose to lows so its the best option.

Edited June 20, 2011 by GunslingerSonic

[LegendLink]

Ive got a question about this matchup: What is the best option when our Noel is magnetized?

[LunaKage]

Ive got a question about this matchup: What is the best option when our Noel is magnetized?

When Magnetized you have 3 options

1. Jump

2. Don't Jump

3. Run Up And Grab

1. Jumping will cause Noel to fly to the other side of the screen, the only thing that will really beat this is Atomic Collider, which makes Noel cry when she is in the air.

2. Not jumping will work against Atomic Collider, and is much safer than the third option, however if Tager uses 6A, you are now right where he wants you, as well as the rest of his drives and command grabs, so if you aren't jumping, be ready to block.

3. This beats Atomic Collider and his 6A, but is extremely dangerous since it straight up loses to everything else. You can also use 2B as a substitute for grab if you prefer.

Above all else, fucking pray.

[jailhousefrog89]

close to giving up on this matchup, basically 1-10 for me right now

[TrueGunnerShadow]

I don't need to Grab. 5B and 2B are the best options I need to fight Tager.

After Tager is down to 40% of Health or less and won the match, then I can cry.

[TransientFaith]

As much as I love 2b...it hits so close to you that Tager can just herp derp command throw you out of it. 5b is pretty solid poke even if the reward isnt that great without 50 heat or a counterhit

[cookiehours]

This match is intimidating for me. All I can say is don't be careless...otherwise you'll be eating Gadget Finger resets, 360's, 720's and more painful stuff. . u .

[LegendLink]

How must I hit him with Noel´s drive (drive like a starter)? I find it really difficult (nearly impossible D: )

[LunaKage]

How must I hit him with Noel´s drive (drive like a starter)? I find it really difficult (nearly impossible D: )

Drives should only be used to punish Backdashes(2D will hit him out of backdash, so use 2D > Spring Raid in the corner to combo)

Throw baiting(2D beats his Normal grab, 360A, 360B and 720C)

Or a crossup, (662D can crossup a crouching Tager)

[Ch3äZy]

Sorry if this has already been addressed here as I skimmed through the posts.

What do I do when I am knocked down and Tager does a 360 or a 720 on my wakeup? I can never seem to beat it for my life no matter what I do. I play vs some people and I know they are going to do a 360 or 720 but I haven't been able to find a way around it.

[Sahgren]

Sorry if this has already been addressed here as I skimmed through the posts.

What do I do when I am knocked down and Tager does a 360 or a 720 on my wakeup? I can never seem to beat it for my life no matter what I do. I play vs some people and I know they are going to do a 360 or 720 but I haven't been able to find a way around it.

Jump or roll. Assuming that this isn't a tech trap that'll catch you when you're landing from the neutral tech, the throw invulnerable frames should keep you from getting caught. Rolling should put you out of range of the grabbox.

[Fluck]

Sorry if this has already been addressed here as I skimmed through the posts.

What do I do when I am knocked down and Tager does a 360 or a 720 on my wakeup? I can never seem to beat it for my life no matter what I do. I play vs some people and I know they are going to do a 360 or 720 but I haven't been able to find a way around it.

Rolling will lose to a 720 if you're magnetized when you're knocked down. In such a case, just neutral tech and hold up.

[LunaKage]

Actually, Axis does this to me a lot.

He will actually react to your neutral tech animation and hit a meaty Command Grab.

The only way to beat it is to Quick Get-Up (Hold Down, and press tech) and then jump or 2D(if he is still gonna do the throw).

I used this during my last tourney, since I never neutral teched, he never reacted to it with a meaty grab.

[Airk]

This is odd. Does this mean that if you neutral tech, there are frames at the end during which you are vulnerable?

Because otherwise, I would expect a neutral-tech>Hold up to take you right from the 32nd frame of the neutral tech (which is completely invulernerable) to frame 1 of jump startup (which is unthrowable), so it shouldn't matter how meaty the command grab is.

Quick-tech > Hold up should work equally well because quick tech is throw invulnerable for its entire duration, but... I don't understand why neutral tech > hold up wouldn't work.

[LunaKage]

Because you're not throw invulnerable at frame one. You are only invulnerable after you are officially in the air, which is after frame 4, at frame 5 I believe, for Noel at least.

The only reason your method works on normal throws is because they have long startup, Tager's command grabs become active much faster than a normal grab, especially his 720.

[Sahgren]

Worth noting that the System Guide does say that jump startup is throw invincible. If that's true, I'd have to hazard a guess and say that either command throws don't count for the ground throw invulnerability, or that neutral teching has some landing recovery frames to it that prevent you from jumping immediately.

Noel jump startup is listed at 4 frames in the system data.

Cause if neither of those aren't true, I'm going to be more than a little annoyed at all the matches I've lost to Tagers tech trapping into 360/720.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Sahgren