[CS2] Noel vs. Tager

[LunaKage]

yeah, something has to be up then, because that wouldn't make any sense, maybe it doesn't count for Noel :P

[mAc Chaos]

It's possible the guide is wrong.

I definitely know that if you neutral tech you can get snagged by a 720 before you can jump. Although it depends when you do it with the super flash... we will need Axis to confirm how it works again with those 720s.

Edited November 10, 2011 by mAc Chaos

[A.X.I.S.]

You are wrong.

The reason why 360/720 can't beat quick get up because it's throw invincible.

This is why when Luna does it I don't grab.

Neutral tech is throw invincible for as long as you are flashing so you can hold up and beat it too.

720 is 5+0 so it pretty much has 0F start up, that is why during and right after flash you cannot jump over it.

In other words if you want to beat 720 then you have to prepare for it or just don't put yourself in that situation in the first place.

[LunaKage]

We get that Axis, it's exactly what I said, but we're trying to find out exactly WHY it's happening, since there seems to be clashing information.

And it isn't just 720 either, when I neutral tech and you grab me with a normal 360, the same rules as a ground throw should apply right? Then why can't I hold up and beat it after a neutral tech?

[mAc Chaos]

I think he means if you just get up and mash jump you'll always beat it no matter what.

[LunaKage]

I don't think he knows what he means.

[Fluck]

You are throw-invincible on the first frame of your jump start-up.

Meaty command grabs don't work if you neutral tech and hold up.

If you somehow get grabbed then either you didn't hold up fast enough or you got fucked over by netplay lag.

[A.X.I.S.]

You are throw-invincible on the first frame of your jump start-up.

Meaty command grabs don't work if you neutral tech and hold up.

This^

If your trying to react and jump a 6F command grab then you are doing it wrong especially since Tagers 360B is active for quite a while.

Just hold up before you finish the tech and your fine.

Oh yeah jumps are throw invul on frame 1.

Edited November 11, 2011 by A.X.I.S.

[LunaKage]

by netplay lag.

That was never in this equation sir, in fact I forgot netplay even existed.

[Fluck]

Then you didn't hold up fast enough :P

[LunaKage]

Then you didn't hold up fast enough :P

Damn, if only I was just a chicken blocking scrub.

That's what really fucks me in this matchup, I never played CT "the right way" so up-backing is something I don't do, like ever.

[Fluck]

Damn, if only I was just a chicken blocking scrub.

That's what really fucks me in this matchup, I never played CT "the right way" so up-backing is something I don't do, like ever.

Well, in the first place, you won't normally be knocked down by Tager since he has Gadget Finger, but the GF and knockdown situations aren't that different cause I'll always neutral tech VS Tager unless I'm not magnetized or he doesn't have 50 heat. If Tager has oki on you in either form then you have to guess anyways, since he is still a grappler. So if you guess a command grab, then you might as just hold up immediately. His mix-up options aren't reactable at all.

[Linear04]

up back doesnt work on good tagers since they frame trap 3c for a simple combo into gf again

best solution is to time backdash properly

[A.X.I.S.]

Actually I can just do 5B>2BxN and use 5D to catch you jumping back, 5D being +2 magnetizes and puts you back in the same situation.

[Fluck]

up back doesnt work on good tagers since they frame trap 3c for a simple combo into gf again

best solution is to time backdash properly

On your wake-up? Well, obviously if you got hit by 3C you guessed wrongly. The mix-up is a guessing game. Tager has options that beat backdash too...

[Airk]

Okay; Good to know I was right about neutral techs then. Obviously, Gadget finger is a whole big messy issue of its own, but yeah: You can always beat command grabs on your wakeup by holding up - as long as you don't roll, because he can grab you out of the roll. Particularly if magnetized.

Whew. Was concerned there for a bit.

[Sahgren]

So you can always jump out of 360/720 on neutral tech then? Takes a load off my mind when fighting Tager, but makes me rather annoyed at all the meaty 360/720s I've eaten up till now.

[Arcknight]

So you can always jump out of 360/720 on neutral tech then? Takes a load off my mind when fighting Tager, but makes me rather annoyed at all the meaty 360/720s I've eaten up till now.

I have never been able to escape command grabs in this manner myself. Unless I just never actually tried. If that is true then most people should just jump away and "choose" not to.

I find it odd that people are assuming both players are activating these abilities in a vaccuum. Most of the time active frames of a throw can overlap your non-throw invulnerable "pre-jump" frames. But I guess that is also wrong since you are apparently unable to be grabbed in that scenario either. Tager can just 5A and basically crush anything Noel can do anyways. Especially after a Gadget Finger. Now I am just wondering why I have lost so many times to a command grab.

Edit: No one should ever advocate Noel to backdash away from anything. It is not Hakumen-bad but it is pretty close.

[Fluck]

I have never been able to escape command grabs in this manner myself. Unless I just never actually tried. If that is true then most people should just jump away and "choose" not to.

I find it odd that people are assuming both players are activating these abilities in a vaccuum. Most of the time active frames of a throw can overlap your non-throw invulnerable "pre-jump" frames. But I guess that is also wrong since you are apparently unable to be grabbed in that scenario either. Tager can just 5A and basically crush anything Noel can do anyways. Especially after a Gadget Finger. Now I am just wondering why I have lost so many times to a command grab.

Edit: No one should ever advocate Noel to backdash away from anything. It is not Hakumen-bad but it is pretty close.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but backdashing will beat 5A after Gadget Finger, so it's your go-to option if Tager is getting predictable. I've always believed that there is a hard counter for each of Tager's options after GF.

Noel's backdash is actually not bad imo, it's just that backdashes in general aren't that strong in this game.

[LunaKage]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but backdashing will beat 5A after Gadget Finger, so it's your go-to option if Tager is getting predictable. I've always believed that there is a hard counter for each of Tager's options after GF.

Noel's backdash is actually not bad imo, it's just that backdashes in general aren't that strong in this game.

After GF Tager's 5A beats Noel's backdash, only time it doesn't is if the Tager was off a bit.

And Noel's backdash is among the worst in the game, I'd kill to have Litchi's or Tao's backdash.

[Fluck]

After GF Tager's 5A beats Noel's backdash, only time it doesn't is if the Tager was off a bit.

And Noel's backdash is among the worst in the game, I'd kill to have Litchi's or Tao's backdash.

Actually, we are both right. Noel can backdash out of the earliest possible 5A after GF if the timing is right. I confirmed this in training mode with my A button set on turbo. However, you are right in that Tager can alter his timing to beat that. I would still backdash if I think Tager is going to 5A. Backdashing also beats 360s.

http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/systemGuide/systemData.html

Noel definitely has better backdashes than Makoto, Ragna, Haku, Tsubaki and Hazama. If you look at Tao's backdash stats, Noel's don't actually appear much worse. The 2 added invincibility frames Tao has are very important, but the extra distance Noel has can be helpful too. Litchi's normal backdash is completely inferior, save for the fact that you can backdash again on frame 17 (but I'm sure you were referring to the additional backstep).

[Arcknight]

Actually, we are both right. Noel can backdash out of the earliest possible 5A after GF if the timing is right. I confirmed this in training mode with my A button set on turbo. However, you are right in that Tager can alter his timing to beat that. I would still backdash if I think Tager is going to 5A. Backdashing also beats 360s.

http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/systemGuide/systemData.html

Noel definitely has better backdashes than Makoto, Ragna, Haku, Tsubaki and Hazama. If you look at Tao's backdash stats, Noel's don't actually appear much worse. The 2 added invincibility frames Tao has are very important, but the extra distance Noel has can be helpful too. Litchi's normal backdash is completely inferior, save for the fact that you can backdash again on frame 17 (but I'm sure you were referring to the additional backstep).

It might be "usable", however, that is not the same as "useful". Very rarely have I benefited from a backdash with Noel. Any time it has ever successfully dodged anything I have been utterly shocked. Even if it could beat Tager's 5A, would it still not lose to 5/4D and whatever else? Tager is such an asshole.

[Fluck]

It might be "usable", however, that is not the same as "useful". Very rarely have I benefited from a backdash with Noel. Any time it has ever successfully dodged anything I have been utterly shocked. Even if it could beat Tager's 5A, would it still not lose to 5/4D and whatever else? Tager is such an asshole.

It's the only option that Noel has that beats 5A outright as it gets her out of Tager's mix-up. You can block 5A but that's really only a draw - it delays the situation as you still need to guess between the 360/Atomic Collider/etc. afterwards. That is enough to make it useful. Tager has other options that beat backstep, obviously, but just using backstep will make Tager think twice about using 5A and this is what allows your other options to remain viable. I'm not saying backdash is your default go-to option, but it has its uses and you're only handicapping yourself by dismissing it.

[Airk]

http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/systemGuide/systemData.html

Noel definitely has better backdashes than Makoto, Ragna, Haku, Tsubaki and Hazama. If you look at Tao's backdash stats, Noel's don't actually appear much worse. The 2 added invincibility frames Tao has are very important, but the extra distance Noel has can be helpful too. Litchi's normal backdash is completely inferior, save for the fact that you can backdash again on frame 17 (but I'm sure you were referring to the additional backstep).

I'm glad someone said this, because I was sitting at that exact screen scratching my head and going "What's so bad about Noel's backdash? It's above average speed and average invulnerability." The speed is above average because the actual duration of the backdash is quite short, and the distance travelled is fairly long, so it has to travel all that distance quickly, which means that it has a better chance of getting you out of range of an attack before the invulnerability frames wear off.

Different backdashes are useful for different things, but Noel's seems to be pretty good.

[SkyKing]

Actually, we are both right. Noel can backdash out of the earliest possible 5A after GF if the timing is right. I confirmed this in training mode with my A button set on turbo. However, you are right in that Tager can alter his timing to beat that. I would still backdash if I think Tager is going to 5A. Backdashing also beats 360s.

http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/systemGuide/systemData.html

Noel definitely has better backdashes than Makoto, Ragna, Haku, Tsubaki and Hazama. If you look at Tao's backdash stats, Noel's don't actually appear much worse. The 2 added invincibility frames Tao has are very important, but the extra distance Noel has can be helpful too. Litchi's normal backdash is completely inferior, save for the fact that you can backdash again on frame 17 (but I'm sure you were referring to the additional backstep).

The thing with this is that it's not taking into account at what distance each character is most effective at. Sure, against Tager it's better than most, but then Noel is just as vulnerable as anyone else in Gadget oki, and she needs to be much closer than those other characters you listed to be effective, so the distance and invuln are sort of canceled out by that. I'm not saying that our backdash is horrendous, but the gameplan that she is designed for leaves it to be much less than what we would like.