[CSE] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[InfiniteChaos]

What combos usually give Ragna a chance to bait a burst?

Hardly any that I know of. The only thing that is really burst safe is DS. A smart player is just going to burst when you are doing 5D or 6C since neither of these are burst safe unless you RC. Ragna is not the best at baiting bursts.

You can also use 5C's jump cancel properties on hit to try and bait a burst; just airdash or jump back and punish a burst a recovery; this applies to any jump cancelable normal in the game.

EDIT: You might be able to bait a burst anytime you do 2D, RC but I am not entirely sure since you do not have a lot of time after the RC to wait. Anytime you land a raw GH and RC it you can try and bait a burst.

Edited January 12, 2012 by InfiniteChaos

[LuminAbyss]

There are no real "burst safe" combos for Ragna, designed to bait bursts, as far as I know. But, I've used the following for baiting bursts before:

-Jump cancelable normals (5C, 3C, 6A, air normals, I JC them on hit and block the bursts in the air)

-Deadspike (Ragna recovers in 14 frames, so if they burst it as it hits, you can block)

-Blood Kain activation followed by a jump cancel able normal.

-Fatal counters (If you don't follow up into anything, you can block after the 2C and bait their burst. If they don't burst, you can follow up with 5A or 5B after the 2C recovers to continue a combo)

There's probably more, but those are some ideas you can use to bait bursts.

Edited January 12, 2012 by LuminAbyss

[-Seo]

6B is burst safe too IIRC.

[InfiniteChaos]

One other tip I can think of when you are doing combos is to chain your attacks as late as possible and hold back while you are doing your combos.

[LuminAbyss]

I remember KayEff saying once it wasn't, dont' remember if he was referring to it on air hit or on the ground.

[KayEff]

6B is burst safe too IIRC.

no it's not

so far it's only been confirmed that DS is burst safe. 6C is not normally burst safe but you can make it so by simply jump cancelling. i don't know if 6D can be made burst safe now that j.D has more untechable, since i never tried it out. i also don't know if 2C or 6A are burst safe in this edition but i know for a fact that they were burst safe in CS2.

[LuminAbyss]

The problem with 6C is only the second hit is JCable, making it not too reliable. 6D probably would still work for baiting bursts because of it's jump cancel properties.

[-Seo]

Ah right right, my mistake.

[KayEff]

if you're able to land the first hit of 6C, then you'll be able to jump cancel when ragna reaches the active frames of the second part, regardless of whether it hits or not.

the only question is if the opponent bursts right when he gets hit by the first hit of 6C, will ragna still be able to jump cancel in time? i would try and figure it out but i don't know how fast they made bursts this time around.

also i was talking about 6B on air hit, although it should be the case for whether it's on air hit or ground hit.

EDIT: i decided to merge the general and gameplay threads together. the more i thought about having the two topics as separate, the more i realized that it's just a waste of space and wouldn't provide much anyways.

Edited January 12, 2012 by KayEff

[InfiniteChaos]

Just tested it out. If they hit burst as soon as 6C hits them they are able to safely burst it. If they do not burst immediately after the first hit of 6C you can jump cancel in time to block the burst.

[advancedNoob]

6D starter is burst safe if jD is followed up closer to the ground, I'm guessing this works in csx too.

[KayEff]

i wouldn't be so sure of that; bursts are a shit ton faster now (probably like 15 frames or something)

[mAc Chaos]

Why did they want to make bursts faster in the first place? Was there a consensus that something was wrong with them?

[KayEff]

i would say it was because of spark

blocking all of those bursts

[InfiniteChaos]

6D is only burst safe if you jump cancel it in Extend. 6D jD feint is not burst safe.

[Tong]

Anyways, let's talk about this specific moment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=84aSbvWG-CY#t=474s

pay attetion to the "j.214C 5A 5B 5C TK GH" and "6B GH"

Even tho kf explained that it weren't resets, I'm not fully convinced and I believe these were legit reset attempts.

yay or nay

[Spirit Juice]

Well he would not have been able to land a killing combo after the CH BE, so the reset makes sense. The 6B was definitely not hit confirmed though.

In other news...

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4039/34124230292458974506910.jpg

FUCKING FINALLY. Now I can actually practice shit and test shit out.

On the subject of bursts, I believe they wanted them to be more like GG bursts. In other words, you needed to commit (or commit like 95%) to baiting the burst, rather than just doing some burst safe combos (that a lot of characters had) that weren't 5A j.AAAAAA while holding back.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Spirit Juice

[LuminAbyss]

Anyways, let's talk about this specific moment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=84aSbvWG-CY#t=474s

pay attetion to the "j.214C 5A 5B 5C TK GH" and "6B GH"

Even tho kf explained that it weren't resets, I'm not fully convinced and I believe these were legit reset attempts.

yay or nay

It was legit in the sense that yes, he was going for a reset.

It's not in the sense that they air-tech and can block the TK GH in the air. 5C (Hit) TK GH is useful on the ground, where the opponent's default blocking down-back will allow it to hit and let you follow up with 2A into a combo.

[Fluck]

It was legit in the sense that yes, he was going for a reset.

It's not in the sense that they air-tech and can block the TK GH in the air. 5C (Hit) TK GH is useful on the ground, where the opponent's default blocking down-back will allow it to hit and let you follow up with 2A into a combo.

Masashi was grounded, so not sure what you're trying to say here. For me, that part was a reset, I'm not sure why KF doesn't view it as one.

As for 6B GH, that's not an intentional reset. Sakamoto assumed that Masashi was going to block 6B and was trying to nail him with double overhead. While it did reset Masashi, that wasn't what Sakamoto was trying to do, although I'm sure he knew that this scenario is possible. Why would you reset 6B into GH if you could hitconfirm it? The 6B combo is way stronger than the GH one.

[Leonil_Requiem]

Anyways, let's talk about this specific moment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=84aSbvWG-CY#t=474s

pay attetion to the "j.214C 5A 5B 5C TK GH" and "6B GH"

Even tho kf explained that it weren't resets, I'm not fully convinced and I believe these were legit reset attempts.

yay or nay

Yea bro. but it's only as legit as your opponents blocking and tech-ing tendencies. Also how well you can tk a gauntlet in the first place. alot of people continue to block after getting hit. some people even start teching right away, in which case the tk gauntlet would of counter hit. the other option behind the same situation is to do a 6C when they start expecting the tk gauntlet or simply when you notice they're standing when they recover from the hit stun of 5C. also since you can't get to great of damage off of standing opponents with ragna, both these option launch regardless and lead into 3.8 leading out of the corner and 4k+ starting from p2 (mid screen.) this could be hard to read so let me know if you need me to revise it.

(He was just trying to hit him was that so hard to see? xDDDD)

[LuminAbyss]

I didn't get a chance to watch the video, disregard my post.

[Final Ultima]

I merged the old gameplay discussion thread into this one because I figure some of the posts there are probably worth keeping around, at least compared to the general discussion. Plus its way too early to be archiving actual Extend content anyway.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Final Ultima

[Fluck]

I discovered a way to improve your execution for doing 22C RC Carnage Scissors. Instead of doing 22C A+B+C 632146D, just do 22C 632146 A+B+C+D. This applies to any other drive move as well. Just something I thought I'd share for anyone who might be as fraudlike as myself.

[Tong]

Is my frame-traps topic so useless that it needs to be archived?

Might come handy for someone...

[LuminAbyss]

Don't worry, we love you Tong.

If we need to bring it up again, we can. For now, I think everyone that regularly posts here has an idea of what frame traps we typically use or how to create them.