Airk Posted December 10, 2011 Posted December 10, 2011 Quick note - it's 6C > 2149D is the frametrap which can be DPed out of. 2369D is a complete blockstring. It just crosses-up. (*goes to read the frame data*) 6C has (nonstandard...) 22f guardstun. 214D has 22f startup, and is head/body invulnerable from frame 10-24, so the whole duration of the hit. Since you are jump-cancel-cancelling, the gap here is just a couple frames of jump-startup, and you're invincible to most things during your active frames. I did finally manage to do 6C jump-cancel-cancel into 22C, which is hilarious. Tasty guard primers into +1! It also has 19f startup so could be used as a trap if slightly delayed. The input for this is a huge pain though - I found it to be most consistent by inputting 6C > 282C. Still extremely inconsistent - I ended up jumping out of it usually, or not making it all the way to 8 and just getting a failed 22C input. This confused me a bit until I realized what you were talking about, then I got confused again. Why would you need to "jump-cancel-cancel" these instead of just special cancelling them? I don't think you can jump cancel 6C on whiff, and you're talking about guardstun anyway. So er...what's the difference here? Artificially inserting a frame or two of gap? Can't you just do that by special cancelling a little late?
Errol Posted December 10, 2011 Posted December 10, 2011 because you can't special cancel a blocked 6c
Airk Posted December 10, 2011 Posted December 10, 2011 because you can't special cancel a blocked 6c Buhhhh. @_@ I was so busy looking and making sure it could be jump cancelled on block that I wasn't paying attention to the () around the S. x.x
Kiba Posted December 10, 2011 Posted December 10, 2011 Interesting find Logic! Will definately be making use of that!
logichole Posted December 11, 2011 Posted December 11, 2011 I certainly didn't invent it! I just elaborated on it here in public after hearing about the theory aspect from a few PNW locals. Still, it's definitely interesting technology. The hardest thing about using it for me is my very strong aversion to putting 6C in a blockstring. I should get over that. It's faster than 6A, and I smack people with that all day long. Here's something a bit nuts: 6C > 2149D > 22C~D > (RC*) > 5B* This is a combination of the 6C jump-cancel-cancel into a series of option-selects. For the exact same input you get the following behavior: 6C hits -> 2149D launches -> 22C whiffs -> RC fails due to whiff -> confirm anti-air 5B 2CC -> IAD combo 6C blocked -> 2149D hits (frametrap!) -> 22C whiffs -> RC fails -> confirm 5B 2CC -> IAD combo 6C blocked -> 2149D blocked (not special-cancellable) -> option-selected 22D -> RC -> you are now extremely +, do what you want The key bit is the 6C -> 2149D frametrap followed by the 22C~D option-select. It's risky going into 6C in a blockstring: best case scenario is you initiate from 5C > 6C which is has a 5f gap can be IB-punished or DPed or backdashed etc. The hit-confirm into 5B is really easy - if the opponent is in the air, use 5B. Otherwise you'll have just RCed out of 22D, go do something interesting. Maybe... 5B. The option-select RC really is optional since 22D is +3 on block to begin with, but it kind of demonstrates how you can abuse the fact that RC only occurs on hit, not on whiff. And since you can D-cancel on whiff... it's neat. Best-case scenario is you just spent 1 charge to get an easy IAD hit-confirm. Worst case you just spent up to 2 charges and 50 meter, but made 6C safer than people expect and ended up highly +. But it's all the same input. I don't know if it's practical or shenanigans - it's baiting your opponent to mash out of pressure. Maybe it gives people here some ideas?
Errol Posted December 11, 2011 Posted December 11, 2011 I can't see any reason to try to input all that, unless you're playing on 1 bar lag. Also I think RC'ing a 22d is a waste.
BatousaiJ Posted December 11, 2011 Posted December 11, 2011 Ending something with 22D is a good way of frame-trapping, making something safe. RCing after 22D seems kind of unnecssary unless you want to midscreen 22D (hit) > RC > dash > 2B > 2CC pick up or something. Or even 22D > RC > 2D charge(for like 3-5 charge bars). 236C > 214D > very slight delayed 22D works wonders as people know that 214D is - on block and try to start their own block string afterwards only to get hit by a 22D. The timing of delay for the 22D is very flexible as well so you can do it very early or late depending on what you think your opponent will do. Given 22D CH will bounce for a full combo in mid-screen in extend, I think I'll be using more frametraps involving 22D using not so quite safe moves and then special canceling them to catch people off guard on purpose. Besides, if they do end up blocking 22D, you're + on block at that point and can continue your pressure afterwards.
TheGreatReptar Posted December 11, 2011 Posted December 11, 2011 You can also confirm 22D into dash 3CC midscreen, then RC that. I think you have to be right up in their face when you do 22D though.
Errol Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Do we actually know if 22D is + on block in csex?
Rhiya Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 I would cry if it's not. Seriously, why would you nerf that, of all things?
Kiba Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) I did finally manage to do 6C jump-cancel-cancel into 22C, which is hilarious. Tasty guard primers into +1! It also has 19f startup so could be used as a trap if slightly delayed. The input for this is a huge pain though - I found it to be most consistent by inputting 6C > 282C. Still extremely inconsistent - I ended up jumping out of it usually, or not making it all the way to 8 and just getting a failed 22C input. Interesting find Logic! Will definately be making use of that! And despite this, the execution needed to pull this off is actually unbelievable! It renders this technique impractical unfortunately. Here I was trying to think of doing 6C - unblockable too... Edited December 12, 2011 by Kiba
Airk Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 I would cry if it's not. Seriously, why would you nerf that, of all things? Because they nerfed like EVERYTHING ELSE, and didn't want it to feel left out? Seriously, I pretty much expect EVERYTHING to be nerfed right now - have been feeling that way since the 2A change.
LuminAbyss Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 And despite this, the execution needed to pull this off is actually unbelievable! It renders this technique impractical unfortunately. Here I was trying to think of doing 6C - unblockable too... Far from impractical if you practice it. Ragna's can do the same thing with Deadspike after a blocked 6C, albeit it's easier because you simply do a TK 214D input to perform the jump cancel cancel. 22C is definitely harder though D:
Daedron Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Because they nerfed like EVERYTHING ELSE, and didn't want it to feel left out? Seriously, I pretty much expect EVERYTHING to be nerfed right now - have been feeling that way since the 2A change. Wouldn't it be great if the majority of Tsubaki's D-moves were plus on block (I mean come on, we're using up our resources for crying out loud)? it's not like Order Sol (Yes I know, different game) doesn't have moves that put him at +20...yet that's totally fine.
Kiba Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) Far from impractical if you practice it. Ragna's can do the same thing with Deadspike after a blocked 6C, albeit it's easier because you simply do a TK 214D input to perform the jump cancel cancel. 22C is definitely harder though D: Point taken. She can do 6C - 282C which would put her back into the basics. She could either frame trap the opponent with a 22A afterwards, and if they don't do that, it resorts to Tsubaki being put on the defensive (Despite the fact 22C is +1). I wouldn't see much use for that entirely, but 6C - unblockable would be nice. If it were surely easier (or once I get used to the timing if I have patience for it) it would be better to use than 6C - J.236D - J.214D followup - RC into unblockable. It would also save us the heavy stock use too. For example, using 6C - unblockable would be better than using 6C - 2147D/2369D - unblockable. If anyone can learn 6C - unblockable, then be my guest, but I'm still on the sidelines about using 6C - 22C. Wouldn't it be great if the majority of Tsubaki's D-moves were plus on block (I mean come on, we're using up our resources for crying out loud)? it's not like Order Sol (Yes I know, different game) doesn't have moves that put him at +20...yet that's totally fine. I disagree. Now that Tsubaki gets stock fairly quickly, the stuff that she'll be able to do with multiple D - specials being + on block would make her retarded. (Depending on how safe they are) You blocked 214D? Good I'm going to use unblockable because it's +15. You blocked a J.214D? Good you can't pressure/punish because it's +5 I'm going to stop you with 5B. Tried to get cheeky and IB'd a 236D? Well tough luck it's +8 on IB and you're still going to get hit with 5B/unblockable. Not to mention that her combo enders/oki options will allow her to gain more stock and it gives her a big advantage into using her unblockable more. We currently get 4.9k of an unblockable in the corner with 2 stocks. The heat gain from the combo would allow us to score easier deaths since the DD can be added. If they made the charge speed much slower then they can make Tsubaki's D - Specials safer but NOT THAT much safer. Edited December 12, 2011 by Kiba
Airk Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 I disagree. Now that Tsubaki gets stock fairly quickly, the stuff that she'll be able to do with multiple D - specials being + on block would make her retarded. (Depending on how safe they are) What do you mean by the bolded section? Most videos of CSEX, the number of charges people are getting can be counted on one hand. It's neither fast nor particularly safe. You blocked 214D? Good I'm going to use unblockable because it's +15. At a cost of two charges and still being able to be jabbed out? (Takes 30 frames for an unblockable.) You blocked a J.214D? Good you can't pressure/punish because it's +5 I'm going to stop you with 5B. Good, because you've been pressuring/punishing all the time I've been trying to get stock? Tried to get cheeky and IB'd a 236D? Well tough luck it's +8 on IB and you're still going to get hit with 5B/unblockable. See above. If they made the charge speed much slower then they can make Tsubaki's D - Specials safer but NOT THAT much safer. They DID make it slower. =/ I dunno - is 4.9k in the corner off an unblockable good? I'm not sure it is - other characters can get awfully close to that without having to run away or score a hard knockdown to fill up a special gauge. I've been in this camp for a while, but as far as I'm concerned, Tsubaki with 5 charges should have a higher max damage than virtually anyone else in the game. If we want to blow 5 charges on a combo, the damage should be CS2 Makoto level, or at the very least, Ragna Blood Kain level. I don't care how "easy" it is to get charges, it's not free, and no one else in the game has to sacrifice to use their drive. Everyone else just has to push a button, and if they're particularly unlucky, they might have a gauge that automatically refills.
HajinShinobi Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) I dunno - is 4.9k in the corner off an unblockable good? I'm not sure it is - other characters can get awfully close to that without having to run away or score a hard knockdown to fill up a special gauge. I've been in this camp for a while, but as far as I'm concerned, Tsubaki with 5 charges should have a higher max damage than virtually anyone else in the game. If we want to blow 5 charges on a combo, the damage should be CS2 Makoto level, or at the very least, Ragna Blood Kain level. I don't care how "easy" it is to get charges, it's not free, and no one else in the game has to sacrifice to use their drive. Everyone else just has to push a button, and if they're particularly unlucky, they might have a gauge that automatically refills. Tsubaki isnt "everyone else", this is a game where practically no character plays remotely the same universally. Also, Tsubaki's stock gauge does give her more damaging opportunities. But that is not all it is used for. Her stock is there to provide her with more options (D specials, more cancels, additional damage, etc). Sacrificing 2 stocks to score nearly 5k damage on a regular basis is pretty damn good (granted this is corner specific but still good). Not to mention we can net 3k damage without stock or heat in the corner fairly easily compared to some or most of the cast (who would need heat to RC for more damage). We can even score 4k damage for the same 2 stocks midscreen without a counter-hit WITH corner carry AND oki (and still gain at least 1-2 stocks after the knockdown. That's already a +3 in our favor, 4 if you count the heat gain). And this is all from CS2, where Mugen is virtually useless because the damage is too small compared to how much you can get from the above stated. As well as from counter-hits and fatal counters. If Tsubaki's damage potential with 5 stocks was 6k+, she'd be much higher in the tier list and her charge gain would more than likely would be how it is now in Extend. That's partially why her charge speed in Extend has changed because she now has a big influence in using Mugen this time around. And we have yet to see the highest or maximum amount of damage she can dish out using it. Edited December 12, 2011 by HajinShinobi
Kiba Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) I disagree. Now that Tsubaki gets stock fairly quickly, the stuff that she'll be able to do with multiple D - specials being + on block would make her retarded. (Depending on how safe they are) What do you mean by the bolded section? Most videos of CSEX, the number of charges people are getting can be counted on one hand. It's neither fast nor particularly safe. What I mean is that the charge speed is not slow. 5D (slight hold) presents her with one stock, and J.D is even better. Consider her knockdown options as well. She hits you with 5BB - 5CC - 22C, and then she has time to at least get 2 bars of stock with 2D. Obviously it's unsafe and players won't be charging mindlessly in the heat of a battle. Not to mention the charge speed is faster than CS1. You blocked 214D? Good I'm going to use unblockable because it's +15. At a cost of two charges and still being able to be jabbed out? (Takes 30 frames for an unblockable.) But, it's +15. Lol. 214D would inflict a massive amount of stun of the opponent, and it's enough for you to use an unblockable. Maybe I should've said +100. You blocked a J.214D? Good you can't pressure/punish because it's +5 I'm going to stop you with 5B. Good, because you've been pressuring/punishing all the time I've been trying to get stock? It's good for you because the opponent gets no time to react to random D - condor dives unless they DP, but what if they don't even have a DP/reversal? They are sitting in blockstun. Tried to get cheeky and IB'd a 236D? Well tough luck it's +8 on IB and you're still going to get hit with 5B/unblockable. See above. Bleh. If they made the charge speed much slower then they can make Tsubaki's D - Specials safer but NOT THAT much safer. They DID make it slower. =/ If they make it slower than the speed in EX. I dunno - is 4.9k in the corner off an unblockable good? I'm not sure it is - other characters can get awfully close to that without having to run away or score a hard knockdown to fill up a special gauge. That's good, and it's what makes Tsubaki unique. It's her playstyle. I've been in this camp for a while, but as far as I'm concerned, Tsubaki with 5 charges should have a higher max damage than virtually anyone else in the game. If we want to blow 5 charges on a combo, the damage should be CS2 Makoto level, or at the very least, Ragna Blood Kain level. I don't care how "easy" it is to get charges, it's not free, and no one else in the game has to sacrifice to use their drive. Everyone else just has to push a button, and if they're particularly unlucky, they might have a gauge that automatically refills. If it's extremely easy to get charge in that a tap will get her one stock for example, then to me, it's free. That and gaining the current damage she gets in CS2 is far too easy. For instance, why should she get Makoto damage in the corner because a knockdown is allowing me to get 5 stocks? Making her work to gain stocks is the right idea. Edited December 12, 2011 by Kiba
Airk Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) Tsubaki isnt "everyone else", this is a game where practically no character plays remotely the same universally. Also, Tsubaki's stock gauge does give her more damaging opportunities. But that is not all it is used for. Her stock is there to provide her with more options (D specials, more cancels, additional damage, etc). Sacrificing 2 stocks to score nearly 5k damage on a regular basis is pretty damn good (granted this is corner specific but still good). Not to mention we can net 3k damage without stock or heat in the corner fairly easily compared to some or most of the cast (who would need heat to RC for more damage). Which game are we talking about here? I've officially lost track, because this doesn't sound like EX at all. Either way, in a vacuum, a character that much expend resources to do things needs to be rewarded for that more than characters that don't. I could say "Well, character X needs 50 heat to do the same damage as character Y", would you then argue that that is character X's "playstyle"? There's a reason why Hazama, with heat, does more damage than most characters with an equivalent expenditure - it's because his sans heat damage is bad. Tradeoffs. We can even score 4k damage for the same 2 stocks midscreen without a counter-hit WITH corner carry AND oki (and still gain at least 1-2 stocks after the knockdown. That's already a +3 in our favor, 4 if you count the heat gain). And this is all from CS2, where Mugen is virtually useless because the damage is too small compared to how much you can get from the above stated. As well as from counter-hits and fatal counters. See, this isn't what I was talking about. If Tsubaki's damage potential with 5 stocks was 6k+, she'd be much higher in the tier list and her charge gain would more than likely would be how it is now in Extend. That's partially why her charge speed in Extend has changed because she now has a big influence in using Mugen this time around. And we have yet to see the highest or maximum amount of damage she can dish out using it. See, I was talking about Extend. As far as I am concerned, CS2 Tsubaki is fine because her charge rate is fast enough. I still feel that 5 charges should be worth more than it is, however. What I mean is that the charge speed is not slow. 5D (slight hold) presents her with one stock, and J.D is even better. Consider her knockdown options as well. She hits you with 5BB - 5CC - 22C, and then she has time to at least get 2 bars of stock with 2D. Obviously it's unsafe and players won't be charging mindlessly in the heat of a battle. Not to mention the charge speed is faster than CS1. 5D <slight hold> is enough for an opponent to forward roll and punish you after the average knockdown if they have a move that covers ground. As you say, it is unsafe. And "faster than CS1" is A) Not entirely true and B) Like saying "it's better than a poke in the eye" :P Edited December 12, 2011 by Airk
HajinShinobi Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) I was using CS2 as a reference to explain how well her damage is with her stock (i.e. 2 stocks to get 4.9k damage). And just so you know, I was telling YOU what Tsubaki is currently able to get in regards to damage in CS2. We dont need to use 5 stocks of charge to net ourselves some high damage. Edited December 12, 2011 by HajinShinobi
Airk Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 I guess I'm not feeling so good about 4.9k in the corner for two stocks when Noel gets 5.5 for free. :P
HajinShinobi Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Tsubaki isnt "everyone else" Just as well, Noel has higher damage potential than Tsubaki simply do to the damage her moveset does (making her a higher tier character than Tsubaki). Plus, I'd much rather have my high damage + corner carry + oki than just high damage.
Tari Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 I guess I'm not feeling so good about 4.9k in the corner for two stocks when Noel gets 5.5 for free. :P You're comparing yourself to Noel. There's the problem. :P There's really not much point in comparing characters unless you look at corner damage output, midscreen damage output, crouching vs standing combos, overall meter gain, meter use, corner carry, oki, defense, tools and gauges, etc. You have to look at everything in order to compare characters at all. And Noel and Makoto do come out on top in those comparisons (arguably Litchi as well). Tsubaki isn't exactly in bad shape in CS2. In Extend, she's worse off, but that's something for you guys to discuss, since I can't play Tsubaki for beans, haha.
Kiba Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) 5D <slight hold> is enough for an opponent to forward roll and punish you after the average knockdown if they have a move that covers ground. I'm not sure I agree with this. Not to mention the charge speed is faster than CS1. And "faster than CS1" is A) Not entirely true and B) Like saying "it's better than a poke in the eye" :P Rephrasing to - 'Tsubaki gets stock quicker than CS1' Edited December 12, 2011 by Kiba
HajinShinobi Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 5D <slight hold> is enough for an opponent to forward roll and punish you after the average knockdown if they have a move that covers ground. As you say, it is unsafe. And "faster than CS1" is A) Not entirely true and B) Like saying "it's better than a poke in the eye" :P - j.D charging is faster than it is in CS1 and CS2 - 5D charging isnt that slower than it is in CS2 - 2D charging is still fairly decent Tsubaki's charge speed is definitely not at CS1 levels.
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