[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[Neithan]

If someone keeps putting out high range pokes which are -6 or better on guard you're either gonna jump or you're gonna SV, if he never guards but always pokes, you're gonna keep SVing till he dies. If your opponent keeps mashing shit that you can't deal with otherwise, you're gonna SV. If your opponent puts you in a attack vs throw mixup and never guards, you're gonna SV(hey KZO vs Isa!!!). If you happen to find out that you made a mistake and your opponent cannot properly punish you due to timing issues and what not(hello KZO vs Ogawa!!!) you're gonna go for the mixup in hope of getting out. This is what I mean, do it when it works. The gradation this works depends a lot on who you're playing against, so I can't tell you "do SV this much" because there will be someone baiting your ass 24/7 while another just runs into them blindly.

Except Axl, I don't see what characters you are talking about concerning Storm Vipering everything that looks like a poke... Venom it's impossible, Bridget the same... Faust maybe...?

Solution against poke : dash break, double jump, 1Frame jump > Air Dash, IAD with gard, Savage fang lvl 2, far S, Fafnir... And maybe a storm viper yeah... One per month !

so I can't tell you "do SV this much" because there will be someone baiting your ass 24/7 while another just runs into them blindly.

That applies too to the order sol player doing blindly storm viper...

[Destin]

And a better mixup would be?

When did I say it was bad? Fuzzy mixups are great, near impossible to block on reaction if you time it right, I just haven't run into too many good people who haven't seen that setup before. If I had to choose, I would take starting my fuzzy off a j.D anyhow (although this depends on where you are on the screen, overall, j.d is for me.)

Oh, and for Caen, I'm not really sure many of those mixups would work, as I don't think you can 2k after a 5S, and alot of people just IB bandit's and throw, if you frc and don't air attack, they just throw. Thats why the jump S into the fuzzy guard helps a bit. Still though, you really don't see too much bandit FRC into throw these days because it seems alot of people have fail safe options for it. In fact, now that i think about it, what would be pretty cool is doing the frc, without the jump S, into a double jump straight up at the last second H.

[reaVer]

Hey guys stop saying "My mixup is better" or "We didn't see that in four years !".

The fact is that order sol has mixups. In tournaments you play one or two matchs, and in those matchs you'll have to use mixups that will confuse your opponent, and that's all. The matter is not the age of the mixup or things, the matter is that the mixup works.

Sigh, what?

Imagine you press and do this :

- P, S, 2k, 2D and the 2D connect.

Impossible to do so lets replace it with something like:

Imagine you press and do this :

- 2P-K-D and the 2D connect.

So now we have something where the opponent somehow thought that after 2K he was supposed to guard high. So lets just assume the opponent was in standing guard and the 2K also hit.

continuing the fix:

Next time you could do this :

- 2P-K, l*BRP and the BRP connects, great !

This one is option select guardable, though I doubt it will be done in europe or USA. You can in fact IG 2D and then proceed to IGing the BRP despite whiffing the IG against the 2D that never came out. The other option is he's gonna try IG the 2D and buffers in an uppercut which is a nice way to destroy your l3BRP.

After that you can do for exemple :

- 2P-2K, BRP FRC throw and the throw works.

Doing this one first would probably work better because he's probably going for the guard option select.

And again after that :

- 2P-K, Charge cancel, run, Throw and the throw works again.

So you CC after 2K, and who wouldn't expect something like a throw attempt there? Doing a CC there should not just wake up an opponent, because you're so close, you're setting yourself up for an uppercut vs throw mixup.

The important is to be logical to you opponent to trick him. You are often talking about many things that are just theory, or applicable only in freeplay when you played many matchs with the same oponent and that you need to find something new/more complicate, a situation that rarely happens.

The mixup is a technique, but that's the psychological pressure that is important (and you have ways to keep it, the simple alternance of good zoning, pressing and gard is enough), and your own psychological status at the moment you play (you have ways to keep it too), not really deblatering about the age of a mixup.

This wasn't put to discussion in the first place. And to illustrate:

j.S fuzzy:

-both 2D and dj.H timings should be the same, making it NOT option select guard able.

- The gap is closed, people cannot mash something like an uppercut in between.

This makes the mixup 50/50 and completely safe to execute. This is why Hintalove stated its a good mixup and to prevent getting AAed while trying to fuzzy you do it from a BRP FRC. Quite frankly, while any mixup can, the j.S fuzzy works better.

Now, if you want something to actually use on your opponent without him option select guarding it as easily, you can use something amongst the lines of 2P-K-D CC Fafnir(with a 23F gap between D impact and fafnir attack) vs 2P-K-D l3BRP(with a 18F gap between D impact and l3BRP attack, and will have 22F gap when using l1BRP) which leaves a maximum of 5 frames difference compared to your mixup which was 9F from 2D vs 22F/20F/18F from l1/2/3BRP, giving him 13F/11F/9F to option select guard high or mash in an uppercut. At the same time, using 2P-K-D CC puts you out of reversal uppercut range which means that if you attempt to throw him, you can still stop before getting hit, or if he did it early you won't get hit at all(which is something key). If you want to end up close to your opponent for throwing him more quickly, you can use simple stuff like 2P or 5K, heck I've even seen kaqn stopping a string at 5S in / (which meant -3 !) and he dashed in and got the throw, but CC is just waking up your opponent, its saying "my string ends here" "this is a setup" and doing a setup at very minor advantage while making your opponent aware that nothing else is gonna show(because you can't do shit after CC) he'll be likely to do something and fuck you up. Some trivia, that 2D CC distance is good for a jump in attack which allows you to fuzzy if your opponent was trying to stop your throw attempt with a ground poke.

[Nakkiel]

fuck yes theory fighting essays

[HolyOrderChipp]

I have to agree with MissedFRC. The theoryfighter is interesting, but not terribly useful. You claim people are going to do this, but I really doubt it. If you can't do shit like this in your matches, reaVer, then sit down and be quiet. Also, CCs are pretty quick, last I checked. I certainly don't have the reflexes to react to one versus a cancel into something else quickly enough to take advantage of the CC.

[Neithan]

...

[Nakkiel]

I do 5K 5S CC Throw all the time, on the same people.

[Hintalove]

While reaver's preaching of the SV is pretty over the top, using sv once a month is kind of dumb. SV is an amazing tool for when you read your opponent, because then the sv's become less of a hail marry and more of a guaranteed way to break your opponents offense. That is why the offensive use of sv should be avoided unless you are 100% sure(99%~). Run up sv is not a winning tactic in 99.9% of matches. Why are we talking about this in the combo thread?

[PhantomMenace]

So what about doing a mixup that allows you make them guard one way and gives u an opening? What could I do to change up my routine and make them slip up? (like making them guard low and going for an overhead. And vice versa) (the reason i'm asking this is b/c I usually mix up my combos w/ high and low attacks. My usual reaction to someone who guards low during the combo is BRP or 2H)

[reaVer]

Well, anything can work, though some stuff simply works better. But you don't really need to wait for him to guard low, if you do something like 2P-K-S and your opponent was standing he'll reflex guard low most of the time which allows you to get your l3BRP in. Once he finally stops that you get your CC fafnir in. Though if you use the setup too often and he has an uppercut, he might be tempted to use it and that way you can't mix him up using that for a while. Also, there's tricks with FD that push you out really far if you use 2 or 3 hit strings(often enough the 4th hit wont hit). Then there's defensive timing issues, if you do a mixup with a big hole like 2P-K-D vs 2P-K-H(RC) he can just guard low in the first 9 frames which he'll be doing if he's reacting to overheads and then guard high afterward which will guard the overhead. So to prevent that you can use stuff like 2P-H vs 2P-K-D which leaves a smaller gap for your opponent to kick his guard high. Next to that 2P-H is a counter mixup to 2P run in throw so if he's focussed on guarding you get the throw for free.

[Nakkiel]

Don't deny that 2 hit SV is your favorite combo ever, Hinta.

[reaVer]

Neithan: FD break, 1f jump guard aren't always your tickets out of defense, sure they can help you prevent getting your opponent free hits and sometimes he might even whiff something. But then you're somewhere outside your own fafnir range or if you're a bit in range you can't capitalize on it at all so you still can't do shit. And sure, there's a few characters less susceptible to the SV and against some its even advisable not to use it at all(such as Johnny), against others you're gonna be stuck with it(such as Eddie and Chipp).

While reaver's preaching of the SV is pretty over the top, using sv once a month is kind of dumb. SV is an amazing tool for when you read your opponent, because then the sv's become less of a hail marry and more of a guaranteed way to break your opponents offense. That is why the offensive use of sv should be avoided unless you are 100% sure(99%~). Run up sv is not a winning tactic in 99.9% of matches.

Why are we talking about this in the combo thread?

I'm not preaching that much about it, I'm just saying its a good tool in certain situations and a lot of people are just blindly disagreeing. Oh, and I managed to hit someone 5 times in a row with run up SV XD

And for the last one, someone thought SV AC FRC SV was a combo apparently.

[Nakkiel]

LVL 3 SV AC -> LVL 2 TK SV AC FRC -> SV is the manliest combo in the game.

[Hatred Edge]

Except Axl, I don't see what characters you are talking about concerning Storm Vipering everything that looks like a poke... Venom it's impossible, Bridget the same... Faust maybe...?

Um you can SV any poke with good range. You can SV Fausts pokes and Venom isn't impossible. Nor is Bridget.

The point of SV vs a ranged poke to break your opponents offense. Because Sol lacks range opponents like to use far pokes. As such your normals will lose because they can't reach far enough. You're pretty much saying "Hey, Just because you have more range doesn't mean I'm screwed." A strike invincible move that's easy to do and you can keep your charge level? Too good imo.

Because the strategy is risky and it involves fast reactions most people avoid it. That and if you whiff/get blocked you get punished hard.

Back when I used to play GG I faced a Potemkin that would slidehead my IAD attacks. It worked too. So I IAD, he did slidehead and I SVed. Naturally this put us back at square one since he started doing 6P so I had to work around that. And yeah SV stuffs Heavenly Pot Buster.

Solution against poke : dash break, double jump, 1Frame jump > Air Dash, IAD with gard, Savage fang lvl 2, far S, Fafnir... And maybe a storm viper yeah... One per month !

I use those. My favorite being IAD j.HS. I don't see the point of using a regular air dash over a IAD. Air dash is too slow IMO.

The thing with SV is that if you have 25% tension you can AC FRC and be at WORST borderline lvl.3 and at best at lvl.3. I get why you and others don't use SV or think it's stupid/too risky but you know in AC O.Sol isn't some stupid overpowered character like the S and A tiers. I use every option I have. If I can't beat a poke with my poke or fafnir might get stuffed I use SV. Maybe if O.Sol was S or A rank I'll stop using it but he's not.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

so yeah sving a long range poke is usually a bad idea

I dunno what's gotten into you guys. This isn't ST where you have relatively safe jab uppercuts that do 25% damage on hit. Is it possible to SV long range pokes? Yes! Is it a good idea? Probably not. Do the math on risk/reward. When dashbraking and 1F jumps are practically zero risk and potentially high reward, I dunno why you'd consider SV unless you were just that frustrated.

I don't see the point of using a regular air dash over a IAD. Air dash is too slow IMO.

ok so imagine you jumped from a certain range and you see a whiffed poke, airdash to punish is really good there

in the meantime if you just randomly IAD without seeing someone whiff you commit, so if you guessed wrong the other guy is going to punch you in the face

dun dun dun

[reaVer]

I dunno what's gotten into you guys. This isn't ST where you have relatively safe jab uppercuts that do 25% damage on hit. Is it possible to SV long range pokes? Yes! Is it a good idea? Probably not. Do the math on risk/reward. When dashbraking and 1F jumps are practically zero risk and potentially high reward, I dunno why you'd consider SV unless you were just that frustrated.

I reiterate what I said earlier: SV is not about doing damage. If you were VVing with Sol, you're doing it for the 1 hit CH which converts into 200dmg sidewinder loop. For OS this isn't the case, you're doing it to prevent your opponent doing certain things which puts you in a more favorable situation. If you for example have an Eddie that's mashing that S button every time you run in and magically holds it when you jump and AAs you, SV is a godsend. And why? You hit, you get close(and don't need to use it for a while) and you get control over him. This means that for a certain period he is your bitch because you hit that uppercut.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Yeah or he could predict your SV, throw out his summon S and you could die. It's not worth it most of the time.

[Hintalove]

Are you saying you would jump at Eddie and sv S eddie????? That makes like 0 sense. Good applications of risky SVs are like sving after K eddie, or out of tick throws, or something like when you think johnny is going to dash at you(or similar situations). You dont want to use sv in situations that overly favor your attacker(like when Eddie has an eddie attack on the screen that you are going to hit, or when your opponent can safely bait it like jump ins and fast pokes).

[WUT]

For starters: IAD loop works on everyone Venom height or taller, excluding Dizzy. This means pretty much no female characters and Ky, Robo-Ky, Zappa, Faust, and Chipp. Everyone else is gravy. I wouldn't recommend IAD combo if your execution isn't up to par, as hitting an actual 2+ rep loop on the likes of Sol and Venom is a little difficult. However, on characters like Johnny, Testy, Slayer and Pot, IAD loop is a little easier and recommended if you're determined to throw it into your combo gameplan. As long as you keep the Beat counter low before the first IAD and you're not TOO far away, you can do at least 2 reps on the tall characters, even if you push them into the corner during the first rep. Two reps of IAD combo into a 2D KD leads to ~120 off a 2K, whereas you're getting less than 60 damage with a 2K, 5S©, 2S, 2D. You can manage 3 reps on Testy and Pot, even if the first rep pushes them into the corner, but it's pretty difficult. secondly: Guys, do not bank on SV. It will screw you more than it will save you. Do not spam reversal SV, do not try to stop frame traps with SV, and don't act like SV is VV junior; it's not. Every instance that you could SV, you have a better option. Reversal SV gets baited too easily (AC FRC "mix-up" is a gimmick and should never be relied upon), 2P and 5K work just as well to stop frame traps and tick throws if you *have* to attack (even then, 1F jump is a safer alternative), and SV can't compare to VV in terms of control. Aside from Lvl3 or a corner Lvl2 (both with the added risk of losing resources on top of the risk associated with doing an offensive DP), you cannot threaten effectively with SV in the same manner that Sol threatens with VV. You don't get a KD reset and you don't have Wild Throw. tl;dr: IAD loop is sweet and doubles your tensionless KD damage, SV is too risky to rely on aside from the occasional invincible insurance policy punish.

[reaVer]

Are you saying you would jump at Eddie and sv S eddie????? That makes like 0 sense.

No, I would SV Eddie doing regular S after running into range. And afaik SV beats little Eddie S unless its a punishment.

[Hintalove]

You would hit little eddie, but if Eddie didn't do anything(which he would probably do) then you're fucked. S eddie is nobiru right? Absolutely no risk for Eddie as far as I know. The reason eddies prefer S eddie pressure over K eddie pressure is that is is much harder to reversal out of safely. edit: I didn't see Wut's post. DPing between hits in a block string or to counter a throw/frame trap is not exactly what I consider offensively dping, but to each his own. That said I totally agree that 5k is always a better option where applicable, especially on characters that you can iad loop, or if you have charge. It also has the benfits of being safe in the event of you getting blocked. Example places to ib/normal block > 5k would be after blocking slayers under pressure(and actually a lot of other slayer stuff can get 5ked after ib, just risk/reward is very not in your favor to try it. The spot I mentioned is pretty much 100% safe except if he goes into his up super, rcs, or maybe does a p dandy to fb pile bunker. All highly unlikely, and ironically, sv will beat some of those lolol). As for the iad loop. Any one else ever do 1 rep and then do 5h > fafnir in the corner into half dfloop(possibly more combo options but I never go for them). On people like test and pot its super easy and feels like a good use of tension, especially if you didn't use tension to score the iadloop in the first place because of the tension it builds.

[reaVer]

nobiru is indeed safe and what not, but if he summons it you can kill off both nobiru and hit Eddie(and I believe for CH which goes into combo) in one go. And yeah, Eddie can do nothing, but that only makes your job easier, because you won't have to SV to start with. Now Eddie doing a completely safe nobiru, he often wants that offensive gap closed asap, so he'll be likely to attack you right after and then convert to mawaru and get you into that loop, so that's another place where SVing tends to pay off and again, if he does nothing, you don't SV but kill off his little Eddie instead. Guessing everything right is the trick of course. Also, if you fear 2H or nobiru S(or a combination of the 2) for punishment don't try to AC, you'll get a normal hit and you can tech out of any followup. DPing when you're in a defensive position, thus where your opponent is attacking you with you being unable to retaliate normally is defensive DPing, so is pushing other attacks at that time. So in a sense DPing is the least risky method of defending yourself aside from guarding, backdashing and jump guarding. Using a normal attack to interrupt is riskier because you can get stuffed for CH, you can guess what that means for OS, what it means for Potemkin scoring that CH 2H with 50% tension and you'll probably know that they are not the only characters that can rape pretty hard on those hits. And against them, receiving a punisher isn't nearly as damaging. Offensive DPing is what Sol does best, use a setup, go in for the DP, RC it if necessary and go for the combo and OS's dp is worthless on this account except when its l3 or TK height l2 in a corner.

[Hintalove]

If you get ched out of 5k by pot's 2h, you have bigger problems then SVing too much. Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobiru is one of those eddie moves where little eddie shields big eddie. And in the event that eddie zones you with nobiru and waits to apply pressure after you block it and you sv it... you're looking at a beastly punishing combo. While blocking nobiru can in many cases lead to an unblockable, your chances of getting out of the guard string leading to the unblockable are much more risk/reward friendly than blatantly dping a nobiru. It's kind of like when you're waking up into Pot superjump pressure. Sure, he might not block once he lands, but what if you sv.... and he does? Thats when you're going to get ch2hed. Poking out of pot strings with 5k is kind of a bad idea since his tick throw will invincable through it(even if poorly timed) and you kicking rids you of your throw invulnerablity from blocking(jp being the proper way to get out of something like that, or jh if you feel a pot buster comming really bad). Also, if I happen to be being an idiot and saying nobiru is one of those eddie attacks you cant sv when it *is* one of the ones with little eddie invulnerability, feel free to make me feel like an idion edit: Checked frame data. Running up and sving against eddie when he has little eddie out is officially suicide. If for some reason he tries to zone you out by summoninginto nobiru, he would get pretty rocked, but that would be a retarded move in the first place. There is a 6f window of little eddie invulnerablity, but it takes place 26 frames into the move, so probably if you blocked it and then dped you might be able to hit eddie I guess, but eddie is usually not all that close after nobiru being blocked so thats probably a bad plan too.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Went ahead and moved the posts to a more on-topic thread.

[Champion]

Now to shut down a few things.

nobiru is indeed safe and what not, but if he summons it you can kill off both nobiru and hit Eddie(and I believe for CH which goes into combo) in one go.

Wrong. At best you'll be able to kill Shadow, but Eddie can then normally block and punish you.

Also, if you fear 2H or nobiru S(or a combination of the 2) for punishment don't try to AC, you'll get a normal hit and you can tech out of any followup.

2H always combos intro FB drill, if you AC or not. Sometimes you just have to delay a bit. Oh, and nubiru combos on normal hit too.