Star-Demon Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 So LK when are you getting Valkenhayn moderator? Tell me something neat about Valk vs Litchi that will beat valk every time.
Lord Knight Posted March 28, 2012 Author Posted March 28, 2012 LK. I feel like, compared to other fighting games I have played, BB is more about playing your own game (pressure/setups/combos) and about researching what each individual character can do so you can break out of their patterns. Matchup knowledge is extremely important. I feel like this leads to some amount of success just grinding in training mode, without really having to have good fundamentals (myself included). I've seen numerous times that people like KOF13 because of how different the characters are, but clearly all of the characters in that are far more similar to each other than characters in BB are to each other. Any thoughts? Matchup knowledge is important in any and every game. You can't suceed without this knowledge. Depending on what character you pick, you may have an advantage if the other player is not prepared for your character, and that's their fault. I can't say that KOF is popular for specifically these reasons though, it could be that people just enjoy playing the game lol. I'm surprised you don't think Valkenhayn is dumb. I'd say Litchi and Rachel are dumb as well. I could even consider Hazama, Jin, Lambda, Tager, Platinum dumb in some regards. Makoto, Tsubaki, and Relius are ok in this game I guess. I just don't see how Bang is considered dumb while some of those other characters I mentioned aren't. Valk is dumb, but people wanted to know who I felt was the dumbest character. What they do to Litchi every version is usually take something that's too hard for the weaker players to use and replace it with something really easy and scrubby... but they did it backwards in EX, they made her combos pretty hard, then made itsuu guard point super scrubby. Haz was real lame the past two games, this time he's ok. Jin and Lambda are characters that take a lot of skill to win with, Tager and Plat too. I'm not denying some characters are easier or simpler (hello I play Ragna) than others. But... A lot of people will call something dumb (a character, a move, whatever) because the other person is using it well, therefore making it hard to beat. And using it well requires thought. Lots of thought. Beating it also requires a lot of thought. When there is no thought behind something, it's easy to beat. That was my problem with your example for Arakune. Putting no thought behind something is different from playing "randomly". That's a gameplan, to weigh all the different options in a given situation (especially if you've experienced this situation multiple times through your battles), and bank on the one that you believe will catch your opponent off guard the most and net you decent reward. See also, "Mix-up", "Mind games", etc. You can't rely on the same answer over and over again, however. Real randomness (i.e. the other guy has no idea what he's doing) can be annoying yes, but not hard to beat. True "dumb" things are tools you can just fall back on and autopilot with the mental activity of a comatose patient and still win with. BB doesn't really have that anymore. Every tool has an answer (or several) to it, every situation has multiple ways it can turn out, and while some situations favor one player over another, there is still a way out. Not a lot of fighting games have true dumb things anymore. It's all just highly opinionated from player's experiences now. Whatever, I don't win a lot and I'm not a good player by any means, so this all probably doesn't mean much coming from me. I'll just drop it. I think you're just missing the point. Is the game deep? Yes. Is planning for matchups hard, and do they take a lot of thought? Yes. But do you honestly think that during matches, when characters are moving in fractions of seconds, that you'll have to time to think of a complex equation and find a solution for it? Of course not. Mindgames, mixups, whatever, when you're actually PLAYING the game, you're essentially trying to just react to situations you've prepared for with a proper answer. This game, and fighting games in general, are likely much simpler than you think. . Is Arakune in CH state right after he backdashes? If not, I would love to know how you hit 5K. Also why all this damn Haku hate people? Lets just all go back to hating Ragna. No, he's not in CH state after his backstep. He probably randomly tagged it by accident > buttons > 2D > RC > Full combo. Players will just keep defending their characters I have a question LK. How can i beat this using this ? I can't do a mix up without being afraid of eating her D, I just ate a meterless 6600 from her 4D in the corner today :/ Also, I keep getting that Makoto vs Noel is 5:5 from everyone, but i really think its worse than that, even captain Goro suffers badly from Noel... What you think of the match up? I don't know what Makoto can do to Noel in EX, I would've said it was even in CS2... most people will say that a match is even if they don't know it, but it's probably harder now that your damage doesn't compare to hers. I'd make sure you could deal with drives, especially 2D/4D, and you should have an answer to her CA. its does. 120 frames i believe. anyway i dont really have much of a question to ask you lk, never have probably never will. this is my not so much of a real gameplay question: when you get better how do you know? what does it take to get better and "be" better? not just playing others, this helps only so far but you yourself in general, how do you get gdlk rection, abare, and hit confirms that alot of elitists love to spout about? (not calling anyone out) id like to know realistically what it is that makes a good player a good player and what types of training and growth. ive been practicing my reaction speeds, ive gotten much better, ive practiced my hit confirms, also so much better now. and yet in the ned i never "feel' like ive gotten better. i always feel theres something else i am missing? abare? well im no much of a random person. but ive been trying to be within reason. do you think you are good? why? what do you have that seperates you from others? besides the obvious. i honestly believe there are more underlying fundamentals and reasons, thoughts or so, that make a player better than others. answer at your convenience. dont say you arent good otherwise ppl wouldnt flock to you so much asking the same questions over and over. You can't look at yourself at present and think "I got better", you have to reflect on past events, and compare them to yourself in the present. You get all the things you want just by playing, and trying to focus on doing those things. Tangible things a good player has - good spacing, pretty good combo execution (like 75% consistant), good hitconfirms, knowledgable about matchups that are relevant to his character (as in, if they main Litchi, there's no real reason for them to worry about Arakune vs Carl), and good mixup (if the character allows it). Anyone can get this far, I think. When it comes to these tangible things, you should be able to compare to your past self and say "Oh, I got better at x, y and z". You just need the self confidence to believe you actually got better at it. Being a great player is all about intangibles. It's the reason why I can't really say anything when a good player comes in and says "how do I get better" - it's because I don't know. I'd say being a great player is all about thought, every great player I've met has their own approach to their game, and their own individual mindset that was forged through playing a LOT. Yes, I think I'm good. I have a good character, with strong mixup, that rewards smart play. Even if people know the matchup, I can still rely on strong tricks/setups that people haven't seen before, since my character has a lot of potential when it comes to okizeme. In tournament, I only need to win 2 or 3 games to win a set, so Litchi is great for tournaments.
Black Onslaught Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 you guys are right LK is just salty it's why he got 2nd at evo it's why he's a consistently top player it's why everyone comes to his dick for matchup ride experience it's because he actually travels out of state and goes to tournaments you guys are disgusting now, the streets ain't watchin no more
mAc Chaos Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Who said anything about him being salty? I only see one person dick riding here. :3 His answers are useless if we don't know what the reasons for it are. Asking him to elaborate isn't disagreeing.
Errol Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Matchup knowledge is important in any and every game. You can't suceed without this knowledge. Depending on what character you pick, you may have an advantage if the other player is not prepared for your character, and that's their fault. I can't say that KOF is popular for specifically these reasons though, it could be that people just enjoy playing the game lol. Yeah, of course. It just seems more extreme in some cases here, where you might hear, for example, commentators talking about carl going training mode on people. It's always the loser's fault, of course... It seems like the amount of stuff you need to know in order to play this game at a top level is tremendous though. The basic pressure game is mostly pretty similar between chars in KOF (and generally, getting out of pressure/defense is as well). So, mostly, you can go with a similar gameplan against many chars, and actually play like 10 different chars in a tournament if you want to also. It feels like (and I could be wrong) there's a lot less of throwing something out that someone hasn't seen before and catching them with their pants down. I like both games, of course.. and spend a lot more time with BB and this community. Sorry if this sounds like a 'personal revelation of the week' post C0R...
Lord Knight Posted March 28, 2012 Author Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) By the way, I freely encourage everyone to post their opinions in here as well on any topic, I find it pretty interesting to see what other people think (even if I disagree). LK how come you feel Bang is derp? He seems pretty ok from what I see outside of the absurdity of FRKZ. 5A, 5B, jD, corner carry, ashura, damage, nails, FRKZ Ok, asking Q's, then (and I'll throw out there that I agree that Haku is easier to win with now. @Sg: he was B-Tier in CS1 and everyone else was dumber. ). This might be beyond the purview of this thread, but... 1) I've been interested in attempting to break down matches by statistical performance the same way other sports (such as Baseball) incorporate stats to improve or determine performance. Would you have a rough idea of what stats could be useful? For example: - Win/loss ratio (global) - W/L ratio per matchup - Efficient use of X move (did you get hit out of it/did it hit the other guy/did it whiff?/etc.) - # of combos (not) dropped. - Capacity to hit confirm. - [...] etc. 2) Similarly, I've been very interested in psychological risk/reward valuations as it pertains to fighters, and how can you improve your game by finding an optimal risk/reward profile for your particular style. So in a tournament setting, how would you evaluate your propensity towards taking risks? For example, do you play more cautiously in a live match, or do you attempt to bring your relaxed mindset in casual games as this may be more beneficial in the long run? (As opposed to simply using a style because it's mechanically superior, but might not be comfortable with) ----- The reason I ask these questions is because I believe current methods for practice and play in regards to performance are primitive. Much, much more could be done to analyze performance and bring FGs to a higher level if it ever hits the big-time in e-sports. There is the issue that these questions may in effect not apply to BB as much as a game like GG since BB is deemed too simple. Whatever. Btw, I'm not actually expecting a comprehensive answer or anything since these are complex questions, so your general thoughts alone would be plenty. Heads up, there was no B tier in CS1. I don't really care about the statistical stuff too much, but if I had to list what tangibles I thought were important to keep track of (let's say, in a tournament setting) it'd be something like - 1. Win/loss ratio 2. Set win/loss ratio 3. Matchup win/loss ratio 4. Placings That's it. Everything we do when we play just leads up to win or lose in the end. For your second question, I think it's a waste of time, and I think it's taking the concept of risk/reward the wrong way. I pretty much treat every situation as its own individual event. I take what's presented in front of me on the screen at that moment (ie what character my opponents using, how much health I have/they have, how much meter I have/they have, etc), the actual player I'm playing against, etc. Then, I do what I think is right. So LK when are you getting Valkenhayn moderator? Tell me something neat about Valk vs Litchi that will beat valk every time. If you think he's gonna bait your dp, use 2C[m], you'll always win. Yeah, of course. It just seems more extreme in some cases here, where you might hear, for example, commentators talking about carl going training mode on people. It's always the loser's fault, of course... It seems like the amount of stuff you need to know in order to play this game at a top level is tremendous though. The basic pressure game is mostly pretty similar between chars in KOF (and generally, getting out of pressure/defense is as well). So, mostly, you can go with a similar gameplan against many chars, and actually play like 10 different chars in a tournament if you want to also. It feels like there's a lot less of throwing something out that someone hasn't seen before and catching them with their pants down. I like both games, of course.. and spend a lot more time with BB and this community. Sorry if this sounds like a 'personal revelation of the week' post C0R... Well, for the Carl example, that's actually not always the losers fault, you can't practice to beat Carl's unblockable, you'll just get hit by it. The good thing about BB is that you DO need to know a lot to be high level, if you have knowledge then you won't get tripped up by random scrubby stuff. To me it's boring if you can just play against every character the exact same, what's the point of having a big cast then? To be honset, to be top level at any game, you probably need a good amount of knowledge about it... not ALL of it but you need to know a lot, for sure. Edited March 28, 2012 by Lord Knight
Amadeus46Art Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Being a great player is all about intangibles. It's the reason why I can't really say anything when a good player comes in and says "how do I get better" - it's because I don't know. I'd say being a great player is all about thought, every great player I've met has their own approach to their game, and their own individual mindset that was forged through playing a LOT. I'm just curious on this one, what do you think makes a player good in the first place then? You say you only consider yourself good, and I dunno if you're just being humble but I consider myself to be a pretty ass Jam player, so I'm wondering what you consider a player has to have before they're considered "good", in any game, not just BB.
STenSatsu Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 He gave his answer in the paragraph above that one Ama. Good spacing, good execution, hit confirms, etc.
Koopa_Klawz Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 How exactly do you humble yourself without making yourself look cocky?
zeth07 Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 5A, 5B, jD, corner carry, ashura, damage, nails, FRKZ -Bang barely gets anything off j.D, so I don't really see how that is something dumb. -Ashura is 2,500 damage for 50%, and is his only real reversal and anti-air, how's that dumb? -Nails are a limited resource, and outside of D Nails are hardly worth mentioning. While D Nails provides Bang with an approach or another potential mix-up, he is still limited to the number of times he can do it especially if he is using nails for other means. And yet Litchi's staff can serve the same purposes except do it for free and infinitely throughout the match. -5A and 5B are good, but I would hardly consider them adding to his "dumbness" since it isn't like they are overpowered. -He has good corner carry but it is at the cost of seals most of the time or at the cost of damage if he goes into a seal combo off the wall bounce if it isn't a relaunch combo. And unlike some characters being in the corner against Bang isn't automatically "game over" or some guaranteed mix-up. -FRKZ is high risk/high reward. Combos can do absurd damage but they are basically like using 50% heat the entire time or 100%. On top of that, getting seals means sacrificing damage throughout the match prior to getting FRKZ. Or by the time you get 4 seals + 50% heat, the opponent is already half dead so it isn't even worth it half the time to use FRKZ. I don't really see anything that truly sticks out as something that makes Bang "dumb" that other characters don't have in some way themselves.
Lord Knight Posted March 29, 2012 Author Posted March 29, 2012 jD - too safe. Ashura - mashy huge super, shouldn't really give such a hard knockdown either Nails - limited, but who cares? They are super good regardless of whether they are limited or not, Litchi's staff isn't staff isn't a free approach on most of the cast, Litchi using the staff in pressure can just get her mashed out, while you can NEVER mash Bang after blocking nails. 5A is good. 5B is a god normal, so fast and huge, puts other character's ground pokes to shame. Good corner carry is good corner carry. Getting people in the corner is good in this game, and he gets it a lot. FRKZ - Round over. Plus, the general playstyle of the character as well.
E3vE3 WAZ HEA Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 2C[M] valk.......and ive been getting beat this whole time when you can just do THAT when hes going to bait *rage quits life* but seriously, i find it easier to get in on valk if i keep him grounded by launching the staff at 5D set, does this count for all valks or just mid to low level ones?
A.X.I.S. Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 -Bang barely gets anything off j.D, so I don't really see how that is something dumb. -Ashura is 2,500 damage for 50%, and is his only real reversal and anti-air, how's that dumb? -Nails are a limited resource, and outside of D Nails are hardly worth mentioning. While D Nails provides Bang with an approach or another potential mix-up, he is still limited to the number of times he can do it especially if he is using nails for other means. And yet Litchi's staff can serve the same purposes except do it for free and infinitely throughout the match. -5A and 5B are good, but I would hardly consider them adding to his "dumbness" since it isn't like they are overpowered. -He has good corner carry but it is at the cost of seals most of the time or at the cost of damage if he goes into a seal combo off the wall bounce if it isn't a relaunch combo. And unlike some characters being in the corner against Bang isn't automatically "game over" or some guaranteed mix-up. -FRKZ is high risk/high reward. Combos can do absurd damage but they are basically like using 50% heat the entire time or 100%. On top of that, getting seals means sacrificing damage throughout the match prior to getting FRKZ. Or by the time you get 4 seals + 50% heat, the opponent is already half dead so it isn't even worth it half the time to use FRKZ. I don't really see anything that truly sticks out as something that makes Bang "dumb" that other characters don't have in some way themselves. 1. Bang gets good damage off j.D in the corner and he can get about 2-3 seals depending on the resources and the confirm you want to use. 2. Nails are limited but can used in a fashion that makes it hard to deal with. I feel like Litchi's staff can do the same thing but without staff she doesn't have a DP and is forced to deal with where the staff is and sometimes that is a horrible thing. It's like Nirvana on one side of the screen but Carl on the other, very terrible thing to have happen to you. 3. Bang is hella scary in the corner IMO since he has ways of making people sit down, the cost your referring to isn't really a cost it'smore of a choice. Do you want seals or do you want damage? sometimes you might as well get seals FRKZ on a hit confirm and do massive damage to your opponent. 4. I completely agree with this one, I seen this through all the life of BB. jD - too safe. Ashura - mashy huge super, shouldn't really give such a hard knockdown either Nails - limited, but who cares? They are super good regardless of whether they are limited or not, Litchi's staff isn't staff isn't a free approach on most of the cast, Litchi using the staff in pressure can just get her mashed out, while you can NEVER mash Bang after blocking nails. 5A is good. 5B is a god normal, so fast and huge, puts other character's ground pokes to shame. Good corner carry is good corner carry. Getting people in the corner is good in this game, and he gets it a lot. FRKZ - Round over. Plus, the general playstyle of the character as well. 1. J.D is punishable and easy to IB, you can block and 5A for a punish. 2. Ashura's only big stupid perk is that it is safe, sure it's -7 but most the time it's used is at a distance where you have to IB to even have a shot at punishing it. BTW the one time where it didn't have a big hard knockdown in CS1, I was told by Bang players that it was punishable on hit. 3. I don't know about you but I disrespected nails too many to count, Bang actually has to worry about getting mashed approaching after nails. 4. 5A is good yes but beatable, 5B is kinda slow, It gets stuffed by a lot of things thanks to him stretching out his hitbox. 5. Yeah Bang...hahaha getting caught by Bang in the corner usually ends in pain. 6. Disputable, sometimes Bang gets unlucky and gets hit. I am not sure if this is normal but he always get CH'd in FRKZ regardless of pushing a button or not. Iono Bang is a tough customer he can do whatever he wants whenever he feels like it but that sounds like quite a few characters in this game. I could be wrong on some of these points just throwing in my dimes and nickels.
skd Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 you dont think bang having 2 air actions contributes to him being dumb
Skye Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 Arakune is easy, just mash backstep, only a couple of characters can stop it 100% in a really damaging way, just turtle and don't take risks and you'll curse them eventually, then they can't even play the game against you. Do 10k after hitting them with mixup and you win. He doesn't take much thought, he's just the opposite of the rest, you can't really mash with him, you just take no risks besides backdash and you're fine, it's always been that way. Arakune's backdash hasn't always been that good. In CT it was more of a gamble because of the recovery. It was really amazing in CS1, but that's it. CS2 and CSE balanced it out somewhat, but it is easy to punish by throwing a 2a in to test the waters, then autopiloting a punish. You don't even have to really see it coming. In order for Arakune to effectively zone, he needs space to do so, making it hard against rush down types and zoning types, so there's more than just turtling. I'm sure you're exaggerating with the 10k statement, since he can only get 10k with full curse meter and 2c/j.c, which is situational. On average, Arakune scores about 5/6k with curse, maybe more with resets. Take the Arakune vs Litchi match up for example. Without a safe approach via staff, Litchi plays a fullscreen zoning game with staff launches, and Arakune has to work around it. Zoning doesn't work too well vs passive opponents. Arakune has to take into consideration so many things when evading, attacks, pressuring and even backdashing. He's far from braindead. Even with the curse advantage he has to worry about enemy placement and bug control. The main reasons he is dumb is primarily his damage output and mix up, and primer breaking potential during curse, thus it is highly likely that he can steal rounds and matches. Pre-curse Arakune is a push over and he takes a lot of risk to curse the good players. If he was as braindead as you're saying he'd be winning everything regardless of the player.
A.X.I.S. Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 you dont think bang having 2 air actions contributes to him being dumb You got me there.
huey253 Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) I really don't think zeth is mad or anything, but rather trying to understand why you would think certain moves are dumb by adding counterpoints. I wanna contribute too!!!! Here are a couple things that people might not know about CSX Bang! jD is unsafe on block.... In CSX, they lowered the level of jD making it -5 instead of CS2's -3, and it has less pushback because of the lower level. (even making it easier to punish) Bang's dnails usually aren't plus unless he is doing them in a blockstring, or is really close to you... (note 2: even though bang is -5 after jD, you cannot punish with a high hitting 5A because bang is in a crouching state on the last frame... if you do manage to punish it with something, via instant block, he will be standing when you combo him) If he isn't right next to you, one should always air ib the nails and then its pretty safe to come down with a button because of bang not having any anti air. Ashura is really really retarded... but he really needs it so he doesn't auto lose vs certain offensive characters... No AA or Reversal or Backdash(his backdash sucks) Bang's 5A and 5B are both really good pokes (5B is the exact same as CS2, but it might have a bigger vertical box), but they actually aren't very good for actual pressure or anti air purposes... But thats why he has D-Nails! His corner carry and FRKZ are really good, but he honestly has to pick one... The seal combo doesn't carry very far, and the opponent techs in the air... All of his air normals also got damage/hitbox buffs and his jB became almost god tier move in this game...WTF (jA, j4B buffs are also kinda confusing)..... The reason they buffed his jC was probably because they he had a hard time jumping in on characters with 5A/2A anti airs... Overall, Bang is pretty good in this version, but he still has almost all of the character design weaknesses as before... His character does allow the player to freestyle and just do what ever, but one has to manage his nails. Believe it or not, it becomes really difficult to fight most of the cast without nails. two air options is pretty buff though :3 Edited March 29, 2012 by huey253
Star-Demon Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 How do I get in on LAmbda? How do I stop tsubaki from charging without giving her 3 stocks? How deal with hazama chains? How do I get out of Tao crossups? How do I get out of Nirvana sammich?
severin Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 getting in on lambda: set 2D staff launch, run behind watch how the lambda player reacts and adjust accordingly
XDest Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 How do I get out of Tao crossups? You actually need to be more specific. Is it 2D~B -> j.C you're talking about, 214D -> j.C, close JC -> j.2B, straight up B cancels? You deal with some of them differently. I suggest just going into training mode and recording some of these situations, then trying some different things out that counter them in a controlled environment. 2D~B -> j.C and 5D~B are the easier ones to deal with.
Siefer Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 If you run towards her and press buttons, Tsubaki will stop charging.
Star-Demon Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 If you run towards her and press buttons, Tsubaki will stop charging. that is not what has been happening... You actually need to be more specific. Is it 2D~B -> j.C you're talking about, 214D -> j.C, close JC -> j.2B, straight up B cancels? wut?
SansProtocol Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 wut? Tao's B Cancel is the version that goes through her opponent and to the other side for a cross-up. 2D is the drive she uses in her loop, where Tao launches from the ground. j.C is the cat swipe. 214D is her command jump that autoflips when you crossover an opponent. j.2B is her fan kick move. Basically, 2D~B -> j.C sets up a basic cross-up overhead, 214D -> j.C is nice for ambiguous stuff since it autoflips, and the close JC -> j.2B is a quick rising overhead because of its' downward vertical reach.
Delrian Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 that is not what has been happening... If they don't stop charging when you're running at her, then free counterhit into whatever you want. If she stops and blocks, then free pressure/mixup.
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