[P4A] Naoto Shirogane - Gameplay Discussion "Ace Detective"

[Minerva_sc]

I went like 5-20 online tonight. Feels bad man. Mitsuru is like a 8-2 matchup.

[KreativeMente]

Most likely he's talking about the dive? Duck then do 2B for a CH anti air combo and convert accordingly.

I actually mean the grab. He jumps up Hugh in the air and comes down and grab you.

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[abadlime]

I actually mean the grab. He jumps up Hugh in the air and comes down and grab you.

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Pretty sure that's the dive. Like said, just 2b CH it or if you're lazy just go FA on him. Just be careful if they whiff.

[KreativeMente]

Pretty sure that's the dive. Like said, just 2b CH it or if you're lazy just go FA on him. Just be careful if they whiff.

Awesome I'll try that

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[Ichipoo]

Not sure if this applies for everybody, but in general, when you lay a D trap on someone in the corner after knockdown, they can disarm it with 2A as they get up. Which can probably be countered with a starter of our choosing and converted into a combo? 2C is probably the safest bet though as ludwig van has said before. But if you predict that they'll attempt to 2A out of your trap, that's where a C trap comes in and it'll counter them. Not sure if C traps can be disarmed on wakeup, maybe some F-Actions can?

Of course if any good opponent will simply respect both traps you lay on wakeup when they're in the corner and will simply block, that's where you pressure them some more.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Ichipoo

[GaoGaoGao]

Fuzzy guard set up:

5D, late j.A, j.5DD, land, instant j.A, j.A, j.A, j.B, 5A, 5B, 2C

Timing is super strict, and you get like, 800 damage. Yeah this is bad setup. lol.

[Mysrt]

I'm having alot of trouble gaining Heat to be able to do the SMP combos before they are almost dead. Right now my BnB is

5AA 5B 2AB 236A~D. Is there a better midscreen combo I can use, I think I only get ~15 heat from this combo.

[The_Crazyasian]

If you're willing to give up oki, auto combo will net you 26 meter and if you're close enough, 5aa > 5c > 236b > c shots gives 23 meter. Otherwise, unless you manage to hit with a better starter like CH 5c or catch them jumping with a 5b or 5c, I don't know if there are any better meterless combos midscreen. If your opponent is respecting your pressure, lots of blockstrings can build up a surprising amount of meter. And if you're really wanting the meter and if your opponent isn't respecting you on wake-up, wake-up gold burst is always an option.

Edited August 17, 2012 by The_Crazyasian

[Kyle]

^ was thinking the exact same thing. MIght consider doing bullshit pressure just to keep gaining meter.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?14908-Meter-gain-calculations

[Kyle]

Here's my answer for gaining meter.

Having my opponent block bullets from full screen.

Hitting my opponent from full screen w/ bullets

Having my opponent block/disarm traps

When I do get the chance to get in I am pressureing w/ A, 2A, A. It's all +frames and leads into itself, just run in & do it again. also, jump cancels for stuff like, 66A, 2A, A, Jump, clock, falling j.C, run in repeat or run away.

Here's the two things I've been applying which has shown tremendous improvements in my play.

- While trap setting, its important to runn, super jump over the opponent and cross their y-axis. having traps on both sides of you opponent is really advantageous. You can confirm full screen megido's into bullets.

- while jump-in & cross-up I have been using J.A & J.B. These are overheard but don't have the frame advantage for nearly anything. J.C is the go to air to ground, even on a cross-up b/c hit or block you have the +frames to run in for A, 2A, A pressure. & do mix in lots of throws.

A neat-o oki setup I've been doing is combo into 2A+B or 236A~D. Super jump, airdash (just above opponent head), 214D. They recover as the trap lands and by the time you recover from trap, you've crossed their y-axis & it's a crossup. If they did a BD-action, you trap will punish it for a full IAD combo.

Here's two follow-ups for the dreadful situation when your opponent is too high up to KD in the corner.

- C, SuperJump.A, j.B, J.C, J.D, OMB, 2[C], 2B, C, 236A~D

- C, 8j.A, j.B, j.C, 214C.

This should push you far enough out that opponent cannot tforward tech w/o dealing with the trap. Now you can react to them reacting to megido and make an advantageous situation.

1: If they were mashing, they recover & CH trap which is untechable so we get SMP loop or IAD combos.

2: If they recover and block we can meet them air to air for jabs into grounded UB

3: If they are really respecting we can stagger an air throw w/ our second jump option.

4: We can always set more air traps if they want to continue to fly thru the air. But opponent only get their jump options restored when they IB your trap. So look for that.

Last thing, I want to setup airthrows w/ megido traps placed for tensionless pickups. 50% is really high meter in the first half of the match. Ideally we throw them into 214D... considering blowing a SB trap on the way up for the attempt. figured the D-trap would allow a 25% follow up and the C-trap could make my throw whiffs safe... work in progress guys. Will let errybody know what I come up w/

Edited August 20, 2012 by Kyle

[Random Naoto]

I actually mean the grab. He jumps up Hugh in the air and comes down and grab you.

I wouldn't rely on trying to anti-air it with anything that doesn't stay out for a really long time since it's pretty much a black hole. It eats almost everything and has a lot of active frames, and the damage is too high to roll the dice. That move is pretty much the reason why putting up C traps in the kanji match up should be near the top of the priority list when you get a knockdown or some space. A lot of Kanji players either just throw it out or hope they miss the trap and will run right into it.

If you're at mid screen or an otherwise dangerous range, jump D works really well to stuff the grab since it has a good hitbox and enough active frames to compensate for them doing it late.

I ran a longish set against a good Kanji player last night and I think this is actually one of the more difficult match ups for Naoto. He has one of the better options for hitting you out of traps or aim from full screen since it paralyzes you and hits more than once, he has good moves to take you out of the air if you try to lay high C traps or jump/backdash away, your options in the corner on wake-up are not good since he's more likely to grab which will beat counter-shot and grab you out of an AC evade, and a lot of his damage comes in combos that you can't burst from. It's also really dangerous to throw random double fangs to try and get your offense going; if they block the first hit and mash his counter electricity thing, it will hit you out clean and paralyze you.

Also, is it just me, or does it feel like that Naoto's 5A is one of the worst in the game? Maybe it's because I'm still trying to shake off my autopilot pressure but yeah, it feels like I've hit a plateau with Naoto as everybody is blocking everything I throw at them and none of my mixups are working.

It's pretty bad, and meaty timing in the this game isn't easy. If you're trying to set up the SMP, 5A is the most convenient way of getting it, but it's probably also the least likely to come up in a match. Jump C or IAD C into 5A is way more likely to get you your hit. Some of the more recent videos show ways of getting into the loop that don't involve starting with a 5A; and don't use crazy amounts of meter. Baiting out reversals from characters that have shoryu-esque moves is also an easy way of getting the loop going.

If you're playing footsies with 5C and 2C, it sounds like you're using the wrong moves. Both of those are pretty slow, easily blocked, and have way too much recovery. 5B/2B, jump C/IAD C, and her sweep are much better options. If the other guy just wants to block all day and try to rush you down, you have to play lame. Just lay your traps and harass them until they try to get in, move or try to attack them while they're dealing with the traps, and start up the game again. If you just try to slug it out with pretty much any other character in the game, you're going to get blown up. The only character you can really go after aggressively is Elizabeth.

[KreativeMente]

Oh for anyone curious, I found out through some training, you can actually just crouch Kanji's air grab. It only hits standing opponents

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[Ichipoo]

It's pretty bad, and meaty timing in the this game isn't easy. If you're trying to set up the SMP, 5A is the most convenient way of getting it, but it's probably also the least likely to come up in a match. Jump C or IAD C into 5A is way more likely to get you your hit. Some of the more recent videos show ways of getting into the loop that don't involve starting with a 5A; and don't use crazy amounts of meter. Baiting out reversals from characters that have shoryu-esque moves is also an easy way of getting the loop going.

If you're playing footsies with 5C and 2C, it sounds like you're using the wrong moves. Both of those are pretty slow, easily blocked, and have way too much recovery. 5B/2B, jump C/IAD C, and her sweep are much better options. If the other guy just wants to block all day and try to rush you down, you have to play lame. Just lay your traps and harass them until they try to get in, move or try to attack them while they're dealing with the traps, and start up the game again. If you just try to slug it out with pretty much any other character in the game, you're going to get blown up. The only character you can really go after aggressively is Elizabeth.

I'm starting to realize that now. The only people who get hit with 5B, 5C, 2C footsies are those who can't block at midrange, sure it works sometimes, but I can't rely on it all the time. Looks like I'm still getting used to playing lame, however, I can't help but feel scared when zoning Kanji out, it's like he knows exactly when to air dive me with the grab once I go into Aim. I guess it's just a matter of barricading myself with C traps at more appropriate locations.

Oh for anyone curious, I found out through some training, you can actually just crouch Kanji's air grab. It only hits standing opponents

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Yeah we realized this for a while now, you can even AA 2B it into a 3k combo.

[xntrikcat]

What's the startup on our r-action? Maybe it's just me screwing up the input, but I don't have much success doing it on wakeup.

[Ichipoo]

A neat-o oki setup I've been doing is combo into 2A+B or 236A~D. Super jump, airdash (just above opponent head), 214D. They recover as the trap lands and by the time you recover from trap, you've crossed their y-axis & it's a crossup. If they did a BD-action, you trap will punish it for a full IAD combo.

Here's two follow-ups for the dreadful situation when your opponent is too high up to KD in the corner.

- C, SuperJump.A, j.B, J.C, J.D, OMB, 2[C], 2B, C, 236A~D

- C, 8j.A, j.B, j.C, 214C.

This should push you far enough out that opponent cannot tforward tech w/o dealing with the trap. Now you can react to them reacting to megido and make an advantageous situation.

1: If they were mashing, they recover & CH trap which is untechable so we get SMP loop or IAD combos.

2: If they recover and block we can meet them air to air for jabs into grounded UB

3: If they are really respecting we can stagger an air throw w/ our second jump option.

4: We can always set more air traps if they want to continue to fly thru the air. But opponent only get their jump options restored when they IB your trap. So look for that.

Last thing, I want to setup airthrows w/ megido traps placed for tensionless pickups. 50% is really high meter in the first half of the match. Ideally we throw them into 214D... considering blowing a SB trap on the way up for the attempt. figured the D-trap would allow a 25% follow up and the C-trap could make my throw whiffs safe... work in progress guys. Will let errybody know what I come up w/

As for the first set up, maybe it's because my execution is ass but I find that the opponent can tech before my superjump comes out. A video demonstration would be nice, as well as your other setups as I'm a visual learner.

Also after playing at another offline session, I'm starting to have an even more better understanding how Naoto is played. As mentioned before, you need to be really mobile and set traps at various places and heights to keep them guessing. Another thing to keep in mind is to be able to recognize opportunities for you to go in, such as when they block a trap or 5D~D, you can't always hope to come out on top in a neutral situation when both of you are slinging random normals at each other which I admit, I found myself doing at times, especially when I had the life lead. Also, knowing when to use Naoto's F-Action is important as well. Sure, it's risky but if you learn your opponent's habits then it's okay to abuse it. For example, the best Mitsuru in our city was simply poking me with staggered 5As which forced me to respect it. Had I simply had more courage, run up and F-Action'd Mitsuru in her face, I could've reversed the momentum to my favor and softened up her offense as it'll discourage her to try anything gimmicky like that again.

/2cents

[Gemakai]

Are there any follow ups to Naoto's Air Grab? It seems to do a fair bit of damage, but I was wondering if it's possible to follow up with it.

Also, what're some of the better meterless follows up her ground grab in the corner? At the moment all I do is CD-C follow up > 5C > 236B~CCCCC

[OmniSScythe]

Are there any follow ups to Naoto's Air Grab? It seems to do a fair bit of damage, but I was wondering if it's possible to follow up with it.

Also, what're some of the better meterless follows up her ground grab in the corner? At the moment all I do is CD-C follow up > 5C > 236B~CCCCC

You have to either spend 50 meter on a OMC or toss them on a trap to combo off air throw, damage you can get off it ranges from 4-10k.

For ground throw just doing CD~C > 5C > 236B > 5C > 236A > 214C/D is good enough.

[Gemakai]

You have to either spend 50 meter on a OMC or toss them on a trap to combo off air throw, damage you can get off it ranges from 4-10k.

For ground throw just doing CD~C > 5C > 236B > 5C > 236A > 214C/D is good enough.

Thanks for the input. I'll try these out tonight.

[Kivorav]

I don't know if there's a discussion about this, but I'm curious about this question: What is the tournament format stance towards Naoto's SMP combo? I know that online fighters are mad salty about it, it's a given, but what about the thoughts for TOs and players that are consistantly playing in tournaments. I am basing this question off of what happened at Evo 2012 with Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3. For those who don't know, there is an infinite possibility based on one of the game systems similarly like how the SMP combo works, but the infinite is situational. They decided to leave it be and not ban it, and then when one player did the infinite on the big screen, the crowd went hype. Whether or not it will be patched out is unknown to me at least.

So, in summary, shall the tournament scene pose a ban or some kind of limit to the SMP combo, or will it be left be to see if it's truely broken or something like that?

[MikeySupreme]

So if you guys are still having trouble getting around teddies super even with super jump dash, just drop a 214 d and you should be suspended more than long enough to get out of the shenanigan.

This works with just about every other character, so like Yosuke can moonsault and other people can do whatever.

I think this is the best way to deal with it, unless someone has a way of punishing it?

[OmniSScythe]

I don't know if there's a discussion about this, but I'm curious about this question: What is the tournament format stance towards Naoto's SMP combo? I know that online fighters are mad salty about it, it's a given, but what about the thoughts for TOs and players that are consistantly playing in tournaments. I am basing this question off of what happened at Evo 2012 with Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3. For those who don't know, there is an infinite possibility based on one of the game systems similarly like how the SMP combo works, but the infinite is situational. They decided to leave it be and not ban it, and then when one player did the infinite on the big screen, the crowd went hype. Whether or not it will be patched out is unknown to me at least.

So, in summary, shall the tournament scene pose a ban or some kind of limit to the SMP combo, or will it be left be to see if it's truely broken or something like that?

The thing with SMP is:

1) It's not an infinite, it's just a loop that last till hitstun decay reaches a certain limit.

2) It's universal, rather or not a character's version is useful or not is irrelevant.

3) There's means of avoiding it such as saving your burst for such a moment.

4) The average SMP combo only ranges around 5-7k damage and share the same damage range as most good characters spending the same around of meter and/or burst for a combo.

5) It does not effect gameplay whatsoever.

[Gemakai]

I don't see a reason to ban the SMP Loop as like Omni stated, all the characters have something like it, but it might not be worth it in comparison to other combos and unlike marvel, you can escape combos with the burst.

If ArkSys sees it to be a huge problem, they'll patch it out. Til then, it's fair game to use.

[Rikir]

So has anyone figured out Naoto's frame data yet? Its not really necessary, but I like a frame of reference.

[Ichipoo]

So has anyone figured out Naoto's frame data yet? Its not really necessary, but I like a frame of reference.

Only official frame data of her 5A, 2A and AoA has been released IIRC. However, if you have recording equipment and if you have the time, you can have the Training Dummy record a move you wish to know the frame data of while you're Recording the Dummy's actions with the number of frames being displayed. Then when you're done recording on your capture device, you can check the move(s) you've recorded frame by frame and it should give you a good idea of its start up, recovery, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efwc3ylZUMo

[derra]

So if you guys are still having trouble getting around teddies super even with super jump dash, just drop a 214 d and you should be suspended more than long enough to get out of the shenanigan.

This works with just about every other character, so like Yosuke can moonsault and other people can do whatever.

I think this is the best way to deal with it, unless someone has a way of punishing it?

If you are desperate you can C+D it. He's invincible so you can't actually shoot him, but the shield will absorb the hit.

He comes from behind faster than from the front, so I wait a moment and super jump. He'll roll under you if he came from the back; if he comes from ahead I just dash forward.