[P4A] Naoto Shirogane - Gameplay Discussion "Ace Detective"

[ludwig van]

1) Oki/pressure. How the hell do I keep my opponent sweating? I can get knockdowns okay, but once they're down (especially midscreen) I feel like all they have to do is hold 7 to get out for free.

2) Mixups. Most of my melee hits come from sweeps, furious action, and random air-to-air j.C CHs, which don't convert into big damage very well it seems. I've experimented with shorthop, but I can't seem to make it worth using. I can't get hop A, B, or C to convert into a ground combo like I can off a regular jump.

1) If your opponent isn't respecting D trap pressure by either disarming it or 7-ing it, you need to throw in some C traps in your oki. If the opponent hits a button that's not a DP or tries to jump out the C trap will catch them, reason being that the C trap actually detonates faster than the D trap (this effect has uses outsides of oki too, such as punishing Yus who like to use lighting slide to get rid of traps. C trap will hit them if they try lighting slide.) Once they respect C trap you can use D trap for oki (IE D trap>roll).

2) Most of Naoto's best mixup is from her oki, but outside of it her options are somewhat limited. Some things you can do include sweep>236A~B for low>high>low in 1 string, though you'll want to switch b/t ~B and ~D to keep them guessing if they should keep blocking or not. And any time you end w/ 236A~D and they're still blocking you can go for a throw, or if you have the meter you can use 214AB for left/right mixups. You can also use 2[C] for frametraps, 5C>2[C]xN seems to catch a lot of people from my experience, and if you think they're going to roll through it you can grab them out of it. You can use stagger 4A (so it doesn't do the autocombo string)/5AA/2A and if they keep blocking you can throw them.

And full screen stagger shots are good too (though how good depends on the matchup), just keep changing when you decide to reload, if the opponent tries jumping-back out they'll often get hit during the unblockable time during the jump startup, and any time you connect the last shot you can put out 5D for more full screen pressure to either continue stagger shots or run up and do a close-up mixup.

And somewhat more gimmicky stuff would include after hitting an opponent up close, dropping your current combo for AoA, or any time you connect w/ 5C (or even if they block it) to IAD j.C crossup. And anytime you're up close and doing a block string try dropping a trap in the middle of it from time to time. If the opponent tries to hit you out of it too late it'll trade in your favor most of the time.

And shorthop has some uses (mostly in the Kanji matchup when paralyzed to avoid getting thrown) but it's landing recovery makes it hard to use moves during it for combo starters, unless you get CH j.C. Something to note though is it's landing recovery is special cancel-able so (theory fighting now since I can't try this out ATM) you could possibly combo into 236A and awakening super (the kick should work at least) if nothing else.

214C/D 2[C] 5C IAD j.A j.C 5C 236A~D -> Oki

For meterless off a trap you should do trap hits>5C>IAD j.A>j.C>land 5C>236B~D>dash 5C>IAD j.A>j.C>land 5C>236A~D>oki to maximize your damage, though it's harder to do on some characters (mostly Chie).

[Tong]

Oh..too bad 236~D 5C midscreen is pretty specific and hard to get right. Unless I'm doing something wrong :/

Btw, whenever you hit 5C far/midrange and are not sure of what to do, just IAD j.A j.B j.A.

Even though it gets blocked, the fuzzy setup will catch ALOT of people off guard. You can combo j.A into 5A 5C Sweep or 236B. Plus, you can mixup the IAD j.A j.B j.A itself by adding a fourth j.A or refraining 2 or 3 moves and go into a low mixup using 2A when landing. It's extremely hard to block, however the damage you get from it, is pretty low if you're midscreen.

Thanks for the tips btw, found them pretty useful.. specially the 214AB mixup and 214C gimmicky nature

[Ichipoo]

I personally only do 5C > 2[C] once in a blue moon because I have gotten super'd out of it before. Playing with shtkn's Mitsuru in our local meetups forces me to play more solid and take less risks. Although, after I train my opponent to throw break after 5AA > 66, I sometimes like to 5AA > 66 > 2[C] for a CH combo.

[Xtra_Zero]

Is there any merit to 2[C] for oki?

In my desperation to get damage off of 2AB, I made a SMP combo:

2AB 236A (OMC second hit, land) 2A 5B 2C Mudoon 214D 2B 236A *214D hits* 2[C] 5C 236Bx11 for 4.9k damage. Any optimizations you can think of? Optimally I'd replace the 2A with something that scales less and the second 236A for something that won't repeat prorate but I can't think of anything.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Xtra_Zero

[Tong]

Won't be able to find an optimal combo right now, but as a rule you should never OMC with Naoto!

Try putting 236AB or 214CD, and try using 236A~B Shots into Mudoon

[Xtra_Zero]

I'd use 236AB instead of 236A, but that's basically impossible to hitconfirm off of 2AB.

Also what about 2[C] for oki?

Edited December 8, 2012 by Xtra_Zero

[Tong]

Ah, 2[C] is pretty good if the opponent doesn't have means to punish you from far. It's a nice meaty.

And how so? 2AB 236AB work perfectly :o

Here, I found this combo:

2AB 236AB~D 5C 2C Mudoon dash delay 214C *C Hits* 214D 236A~B(1)~D *D Hits* 5C IAD j.B j.C 5C 236B x9

Damage:7639

Edited December 8, 2012 by Tong

[Xtra_Zero]

What I mean is that you don't have time to realize you hit the opponent, which means that's only good for a punish, not so good when just fishing for a hit or poking.

[ludwig van]

2[C] oki: haven't seen it used, on paper it seems like there's less creative uses for mixups as opposed to trap oki. Also I'll test this out later, but most of the cast could probably just DP out of it, b/c as opposed to other characters using their Persona's for oki (Yu, Chie), Naoto's stuck next to her Persona for the duration instead of being able to do high/low/block/whatever as the opponent takes the meaty. Plus since 99% of your knockdowns come from 236A~D you don't have enough to step back 2[C] to get enough space to avoid getting DP'd.

The best sweep>236A SMP I've found is sweep>236A~Bx5>Mudoon>214D>2A>2B>236A~D>2[C]>5C>SMPx6>236A~D for 5326 damage.

EDIT: Just found a better non-Teddie SMP off sweep: sweep>236A~Bx5>Mudoon>214C>214D>236A~D>2[C]>2B>5C>SMPx6>236A~D for 5622 damage.

Edited December 9, 2012 by ludwig van

[Random Naoto]

Ah, 2[C] is pretty good if the opponent doesn't have means to punish you from far. It's a nice meaty.

And how so? 2AB 236AB work perfectly :o

Here, I found this combo:

2AB 236AB~D 5C 2C Mudoon dash delay 214C *C Hits* 214D 236A~B(1)~D *D Hits* 5C IAD j.B j.C 5C 236B x9

Damage:7639

If you're spending 75 meter, 2ab 236ab mudoon 214d 2a 5aa 236a bx1 d 2b 5c 236b x a bunch Is TOD.

[Zeromus_X]

Dunno if any of you guys are still playing this game, but here's some ToD SMPs off of Hamaon. So if you like to use Hamaon, have 100 meter, and want to do more than a 1k BnB when people don't tech your Hamaon, well...

Hamaon (hits) > 5C > 214A~Cx5 > Mudoon > 214C > 214D > 236A~B(once)~D > 2[C] > (delay) 2B > 5C > 236B~DxN (death)

- Hamaon (hits) > 5C > 214A~Cx5 > Mudoon > 214D > 5AA > 236A~D > 2[C] > dash 2B > 5C > 236B~DxN (death)

[OutlawVinegar]

So, Naoto players. Help me out here. What exactly is the weakness of Naoto's SB Shooting Stance/'Ex Roll'? I already have tons of problems in this matchup regardless of who I'm playing and how good/bad the Naoto is, but so far my attempts to beat this move only work by luck. At this point, if I have Naoto cornered and she has 25 meter, they can get out for free/reverse the momentum without a fight. Nevermind blocking the damn thing on netplay even when I do see it coming. :/

[Ichipoo]

After a knockdown, try to do a meaty attack and Naoto will get CH'd since there's start up on the first 4 frames (or 3?). Moving back a bit so that they'll roll right in front of your face is something some smarter opponents have done on me as well.

Oh and SB Aim ver. Netplay is unavoidable anyway so don't bother.

[Zeromus_X]

Yeah, meaty attacks or backing up are the way to go, also it's totally free to meaty throws.

[Random Naoto]

It depends on your character as to what will beat it outright, but that's like saying "what do I do to beat a shoryu (I guess in this case an r action) when I want to go ham after a knockdown". To some extent it's an option you have to respect; if they have the meter, they might do it. You can go in and take your chances or play safe and give up meaty pressure for the chance to bait it:

[OutlawVinegar]

Alright, thanks for that. I'm not sure how well I'll be able to adjust, but skimming the frame data and knowing the invul isn't immediate hopefully will help, as well as figuring out how to bait it. I kind of feel like being near the corner at all with Naoto is a losing proposition with this knowledge, though. 75 meter potentially leading to a total reversal/SMP? Why bother doing anything anywhere except midscreen with her?

How is this a bad character again? I only can say this because I'm not playing Narukami, I guess.

[Ichipoo]

How is this a bad character again? I only can say this because I'm not playing Narukami, I guess.

-Normals are mediocre compared to Mitsuru, Yu, Aigis, Chie, etc. so it's pretty easy to get "randomed" out even by technically weaker players, forcing us to be the better player.

-Dead in like 2 or 3 good combos so you can't make any serious mistakes, which is pretty easy to make since again, Naoto can get "randomed" out.

-No real mixup aside from the super risky 236A~B that any opponent can DP out.

-VERY reliant on traps, so characters who can disrespect it for free such as Yosuke or Labrys will make it harder for you.

-Probably has the worst "overall" matchups in the game. While she has an advantage over Kanji and maybe Chie and Labrys on neutral, all it takes is one mistake (a common one being missing the Aim shots) and we're holding on to dear life as opposed to those characters where they can make numerous mistakes but have a chance to turn it around.

Generally, playing as Naoto forces you to learn the game and other characters more in general since you have to respect so many of their options and know numerous appropriate responses to them and it's pretty hefty IMO.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Ichipoo

[OutlawVinegar]

Hah, I appreciate the response, though I've been following P4U since the initial arcades, so I was kind of being facetious.

-Imo, Yosuke and Labrys can't disrespect traps as freely as you think; by themselves, sure, they can j.C and j.B them easily, but doing so usually either leaves them open for bullets or takes some time, during which Naoto can set up 5D, more traps, or just go in for pressure or a punish.

-Her health is low, but it isn't the lowest, and besides that it's only 300-500 lower than Yosuke, Yukiko, etc. I feel like everyone who is below 9k is a harder character to play well simply because an Awakened opponent is really capable of running the damage back with one good Fatal.

-'No mixup' is nonsense, really. She has several ways of frame-trapping, a special overhead, decent lows, a quick crossup for 25 meter (not as good as Akihiko of course, but still), and options with meter like Double Fangs > OMC into double overheads, etc. It might seem 'weak' to you, but it's at least average above-average when you consider the mixup options available across the cast (Yukiko, Liz, and Mitsuru have worse mixup, Kanji, Lab/Slab, and Teddie (based on what items are out) have worse pressure).

While the meter use is considered wasteful by most Naoto players on Dustloop as they'd prefer to save it for SMP, it feels like people don't actually respect the damage and options she has without it.

Though I disagree with some of your opinions on the character, I'm splitting hairs here. I recognize she's a weaker character than the current top, and I wasn't trying to say otherwise. If anything, the fact that Narukami's 214s eat traps for free was what I was getting at in my last post. I know she's got it rough, I just seem to get outplayed by Naoto players a lot, so the differences in character strength don't feel pronounced.

[Doonpa]

You make some pretty good point OutLawVinegar, but theres a lot to this character that people don't know about really. NEC really showed me that people don't know too much about her and what to do against her, as most of the cast has pretty strong answers to most of her things. If there is one thing everyone should walk away knowing, its when to burst a SMP loop and to hold their burst for that moment. I'd just like to make a couple points on what you said:

-Yosuke kills Naoto in neutral. Kunais, Glide, Run, j.D, j.C, Ex Tentarafoo, and dash 5A (among other things that im probably forgetting) are so strong in this matchup. A lot of these options beat out both traps and shots by either avoiding them completely or just outspeeding Naoto entirely. This isn't a match where Naoto can safely sit back and setup. Labrys on the other hand really only has j.B and the chain grapple, which are very manageable for Naoto compared to what she generally has to deal with. Labrys's red axe is what makes the matchup scary, but that goes for all her matchups lol.

-Having 8k health means a couple crucial things for Naoto. What it means is that ideally Naoto will die vs Aigis (two mixups into double megido combo) and Mitsuru (Basic 4k combo in the corner into D Bufula oki into 50/50 into another 4k) in two touches without ever having the chance of getting to Awakening. All characters have to deal with this, but most would survive those situations and live to see themselves in awakening. So yeah, its generally easier to kill naoto before she even gets the meter to kill you.

-I agree with you that "no mixup" is nonsense. She has like the 3rd best AOA in the game, cross up setups using traps, fuzzy guard, resets into airthrow, pretty good delayed AD into high or low setups if the opponent respects or if you make them block 5D~D, as well as some other tricky stuff using RCs or AD Ex trap tricks. She's no chie, narukami, aigis or akihiko, but considering that she is suppose to be a zoner/trap character, she has pretty good options to open people up. But lets all acknowledge something, people shouldn't be using Double Fangs to open someone up unless you space it so that only the second hit hits lol.

As for meter usage, Naoto players shouldn't be scared of using their meter to open people up or keep themselves safe. If you can't hit them, how are you going to SMP them? And if you are going to SMP them, they should always have their burst ready, no reason to not hold your burst. I know at NEC i made top 16 without really SMPing people too often. I mainly used meter to keep myself safe if they blocked my AOA or to use EX roll among other things like silencing. People getting hit by traps means naoto gets an easy 3.2k or almost 4k if you do the harder meterless combo off traps. But yeah, Naoto is strong, its just a lot of the cast has ways to not let her play her game.

[Ichipoo]

I suppose the "no real mixup" comment was inaccrate, it's just that when pressuring, I rarely go for the AoA and 236A or any other set up that leaves the tiniest gap in my blockstring, simply because the players in my region for some unknown reason recognize the gaps no matter how I try to mix it up which results in me getting hit out of it before, which forced me to go for airtight, yet one-dimensional blockstrings ending in sweep or airdashing away to leave a trap and return to neutral.

[Doonpa]

http://pastebin.com/brFQTWE2

So I kinda wrote a overall Naoto guide that goes over her moves and what not. Mind you, i wrote most of this stuff at like 3am so my grammar is probably terrible throughout most of this. It's still incomplete because i'd like to talk about mix ups/other stuff and i'm not very happy with the overall format of it anyway. It's also a very long read, so yeah :\. I don't go over combos because it's pretty pointless as the combo thread here is enough. Any suggestions, comments, and corrections welcome. If everyone likes this, i'd like to post this as a separate thread once I reorganize it and reread it. Adding all the info from this into the wiki would be nice but I think the wiki is better off not getting cluttered by massive walls of text.

All of this is mainly based off of things I read/experienced during my time playing as Naoto. I'd like to try to cite any info that I have gotten from others, so if you feel that i wrote something in here that I may have blatantly taken from someone's post here or else where, let me know so I can give you credit (I know i cited Mynus and Omni in there at some point lol.)

[JayKay54]

As an aspiring Naoto player, I find Diarmuid's guide extremely informative, detailed, and very thorough. Definitely recommend everyone takes a look. Even though his username is taken from a third rate servant.

[Zeromus_X]

Great stuff Diarmuid. Only a couple things I want to ask about, what other characters does the jA fuzzy guard work on besides Yu? I always thought he was the only one it worked on, it would be great if it worked on other chars too.

Also, what is the input for the throw OS after a safejump? Do you just input throw before actually landing? Would be great for chars like Elizabeth that just want to dice roll DP/quick escape/2B every single wakeup.

[ludwig van]

Good stuff Diarmuid! I'll throw that link on the first post.

BTW, check your PMs sir. :X

As for everyone else, expect a Naoto version of this soon.

EDIT: Also, new JP P4U footage is kind of rare now (especially for Naoto), but would there any interest if I started updating the video thread again?

Edited January 15, 2013 by ludwig van

[Zeromus_X]

Updating the video thread would certainly be appreciated, even if JP Naoto footage is pretty scarce nowadays. And frankly, most of them only win a few games, look like they're hot shit, and then lose to some random Chie/Aigis/Yu player anway. Still, you never know when there'll be a good video of a matchup you don't see too often.