[P4A] Naoto Shirogane - Gameplay Discussion "Ace Detective"

[YukiBlue]

Just hop on over to Europe. Game comes out here in a few days. Get hype for that 1 year delay!

[EPIC_POTATOCHIP]

Just hop on over to Europe. Game comes out here in a few days. Get hype for that 1 year delay!

Omg... Are you serious??? You guys are just now getting it? o.o

[YukiBlue]

Persona 4 Arena. Releasing on May 9th in the EU. Apparently a compatibility issue caused a 1 year delay. Couple that with it being region locked, and we had almost no way to get a hold of the game! Shoutouts to dissapointment!

[EPIC_POTATOCHIP]

Persona 4 Arena. Releasing on May 9th in the EU. Apparently a compatibility issue caused a 1 year delay. Couple that with it being region locked, and we had almost no way to get a hold of the game! Shoutouts to dissapointment!

Wow... Not only did the BB:CP trailer kill that hype of P4A.. But you guys could play untill a year later??? The game didn't even last long her. It died so fast. smh... I feel sorry for you.

[Doonpa]

Thinking about picking up Naoto... If anyone still plays this god forsaken game, would anyone mind teaching a young lad? lol

There are still a lot of people who play this game, ignore the stream monsters saying RIPRIPRIP. As for people playing Naoto, there are probably less than 10 active Naoto players on here, but everyone here who is active is pretty knowledgeable.

There is a lot of resources on this forum to help you learn how to play Naoto. Combo thread has practically everything you'll need in terms of her hit confirms and there is a link to a Naoto guide on the first page of this thread as well as info on the dustloop wiki. If you have questions, there are plenty of us that can answer them. Or, are you looking for someone to sit down with you and teach you stuff visually or something?

[Zeromus_X]

http://kurushii.tv/Dustloop/Articles/130513_ArcRevo_P4U_Brackets.png

Translated bracket for Arc Revo. Looks like Denpa is up against Teddie for the very first match, with Yu or Aigis right next door. God bless our savior.

[Doonpa]

Denpa lost to Souji at ArcRevo right now. Watching him fight Souji and not be able to do anything to him in neutral brought back bad memories of me vs Souji at NEC ;____________; His neutral was GODLIKE vs Domi and his hitconfirms were really on point. Its so sad to see so much hard work get shut down so easily.

[Zeromus_X]

Yeah that was pretty sad to watch. At least Denpa made it to top 4 and lost to arguably Naoto's worst matchup. That air to air jB jC OMB into SMP loop was hype as fuck.

[Doonpa]

So, in an attempt to not lose a chance to press some form of advantage midscreen, i've come up with these things. Since P4A is so setplay orientated, i've decided to put more focus into that area of Naoto's play. She's no Chie or Narukami, but it can't hurt to try to be them. We can't all be like +88 after sweep unfortunately x_____X

Any ground chain, Sweep, 236A(both hits)~D IAD jump normal= safe jump except against Teddie, Yosuke, and potentially Kanji.

Same setup as above except the ground chain preferably should not be started point blank into Sweep 236A~D into a meaty 2[C]. If spaced, this is a safe meaty against the majority of the cast. Will lose to most fast supers and stuff like Mitsuru DP, Myriad Arrows, Yosuke DP, etc.

These setups also work off of raw sweep as well, but most of the time you'll be going into 236A off of it anyway so w/e. The reason why the meaty 2[C] isnt completely invalidated by the safe jump is simply because the opponent can't delay their tech to avoid blocking it.

Completely off topic from the rest of my post, but I really can't stress enough how important it is to play neutral PERFECTLY. It's soooo hard to do, but so goddamn important it hurts. I feel like no matter how much tech I try making for this character, there's always going to be this giant hurdle of trying to be a god at neutral like Denpa with Naoto. No amount of cute mixups or retarded SMPs can really make up for being perfect at one's spacing and movement x______x

[Ichipoo]

Completely off topic from the rest of my post, but I really can't stress enough how important it is to play neutral PERFECTLY. It's soooo hard to do, but so goddamn important it hurts. I feel like no matter how much tech I try making for this character, there's always going to be this giant hurdle of trying to be a god at neutral like Denpa with Naoto. No amount of cute mixups or retarded SMPs can really make up for being perfect at one's spacing and movement x______x

This is what I've been working on these past few months, just my neutral. Not so much on offense because if your neutral is good, then opportunities for getting combos in will follow.

That being said, I should probably work on defense some more.

[Zeromus_X]

Watch out comboing into 236A on Teddie. If you aren't close enough, the 236A won't combo because of Teddie's stupid hitbox. I've just started to do regular sweep oki or Autocombo safejumps on him.

I never thought about doing a meaty 2[C] after 236A~D, I'll have to start trying that out. On the subject of setups there are a few I've been working on recently:

Sweep > 214D: This isn't a great setup for gaining an advantage, but at the same time, it also has the least commitment. The trap will devour rolls which people are oft to do against Naoto's midscreen oki, and you can still attempt a midrange pressure game or charge a 2[C]. If you cross them up, you can push them back into the trap for continued pressure. It's also decent in the corner because you can charge a 2[C] and still be safe from most reversals, while catching them trying to up-back or press buttons.

(midscreen) 66 7jA+C, airdash jB: I've been using this after seeing Labrys players, among others, use it in videos. Any character can do this, but it works wonders with Naoto because of her speed. On their wakeup, dash, jump back, air turn, then airdash backwards over them. If you time it right, you'll make most of the DPs in the game go in the wrong direction, whiffing entirely and preventing a super-cancel. It will also CH any jump back airthrow attempts, again, if timed properly. Also doubles as a throw bait and quick cross up off of jump-cancellable moves in your blockstrings.

Re: Neutral, I also agree that it's the most important aspect of playing Naoto. I've been reading some stuff about Ky in GG, and this post got my attention: I really like the idea of a "Negative" play-style and think it applies to Naoto quite well. As soon as I stopped trying to challenge other characters' normals and started focusing more on movement, and not commiting to setting a bunch of traps at once, my success with Naoto started to increase. I recommend reading the whole thread even if you don't play Ky or GG since it offers some interesting tips about playing fighting games in general.

[Doonpa]

Last safe jump: Throw, Followup, short dash, IAD j.C. You'll hit the opponent with the tip of j.C so you'll be at a range where you'll probably have to go into 5B once you land and pressure from there. This safejumps everything except Yosuke's DP. You'll still activate Teddie's DP, but you won't get hit by it, and vs Kanji your persona takes the hit if you time it incorrectly but you'll be fine. If you do it right your j.C should whiff him if he DPs so you can punish him right away.

So basically, Naoto can maintain her pressure off any knockdown pretty safely at this point, which makes her a borderline setplay character, or at least closer to Chie's style of setplay which isn't as extreme as Narukami's and is more based on making your opponent block. If your opponent tries to be slick by delaying their tech or not teching at all, then that means you should start going for trap oki which is probably the best thing you can get midscreen. Late teching makes setting up traps safe if you've conditioned them enough. Only character i'd want to safe jump j.C more than do trap oki midscreen on would be Narukami because of the fear-less fuzzy guard which is way harder to deal with imo. I'm also going to be doing an analysis of my ft10 vs VR-Raiden where I'll point out somethings about the match that people should be aware of and its effectiveness. If I can figure out a way to record and put my voice over the video ill do that (dont have stream equipment unfortunately), otherwise you'll be dealing with a giant wall of text lol.

EDIT: Might as well spill the secret of how to throw off of C trap oki in the corner since there was a little debate on it on yesterdays stream. This is straight up Denpa tech that I saw him and worked out how he does it. If you delay setting the C trap slightly, you can throw the opponent before it hits. The delay makes it work because the C trap becomes visible immediately due to how close the opponent is to you despite being knocked down. By delaying it slightly, the trap will become active like 1-2 frames later which gives you just enough of a gap to get a throw in. This makes the corner oki a legit 3 way mixup with 2/3 parts of the mixup being entirely DP safe. Your opponent can DP you before you get the throw out, but the timing has to be perfect on the their part and theres a good chance you'll still block if you hold 4 and hit throw because this game is funny.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Diarmuid

[LunaKage]

Started playing Naoto. I really have fun with her, and she might even replace Chie as my main. I'm wondering what Naoto generally does in presdure situations, as well as which trap to use for oki after 236A~D. I've been using C since D is much slower and MI is basically the disrespect state. What are my mixup options after oki? What are my mixup options during pressure?

[Zeromus_X]

Under pressure, Naoto doesn't have the greatest options, but it depends on the situation. Counter Assault is the most reliable, but it uses 50 meter. Gold Burst is excellent for Naoto if it lands because it supplies her with precious meter to kill people. If you have no choice but to Green Burst, try to burst when you get near Awakening. Other than that, you just have to pay attention to your opponents pressure tendencies and choose when to smart mash, DP, or EX Aim to get out. In Awakening, Kick super is an option that opponents often forget about, and you can ToD people if if FCs.

On the offense, Naoto typically relies on safejump setups midscreen with her jC. Try practicing the timing after Sweep, Sweep > 236A~D, Throw followup, and 5AAA. Her jC safejumps almost every character's DP, but against Yosuke you should just do rising jA (triggers counter), jC (CHs) instead.

In the corner, ending combos with C trap oki is the way to go, since you can pretty much kill them if they get hit (214C hit > 5C > 214A~Cx5, Mudoon > 214D > sweep > 236A~B(1)~D, 5AA, 236B~D a bunch), or you can hold back to block DPs while letting the trap explode if they choose to block and still maintain advantage. Once they're conditioned to block, you can do trickier mixups like IAD jAA, empty jump 2A, throw, or AoA, or short hop jB > jD > landing 5AA link, or start throwing them before the trap explodes to mix it up like Diarmuid posted earlier. If your opponent is really low on life, you can use EX Trap for oki, which deals massive chip damage on block and gives you more time for a mixup.

Against Narukami, you can do a deep jC (blocked) into a rising jAAA fuzzy guard. Just avoid using trap oki against Teddie, as his DP beats it for free.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Zeromus_X

[LunaKage]

Yeah I figured out how to escape pressure pretty quick (I DO play Noel after all :3), and these setups are gonna be great, but they aren't gonna do much good if I can't open my opponent up. That's what I REALLY wanna know. How does Naoto pressure? And how does she mix up from said pressure? Can she even do that at all? Lol I'm at a loss.

[Zeromus_X]

As far as opening opponents up, Naoto is more of a frame trap and tick throw-based character. She has a great throw range and can mix up her 5A/2A strings into tick throws, frame traps with delay chains, or even attempt some crossups (5A > 7jump air turn airdash jB is one of my favorites) or throw baits (run up, jump, falling jC CH for massive damage). 2A, 5A, and 5AA are only -3, -2, and -1 respectively, and are all jump-cancellable, so you can stagger, tick throw, or crossup at any time with them.

Once people start blocking, you can attempt to reset your pressure with charged 2C, as it is +8, as long as you aren't obvious (close up 5A/2A into charged 2[C] can be scary if you space it so they can't throw you). 5B is good for tick throws sometimes since it moves forward, and you can delay chain into 5C to throw bait them. If you have them really conditioned, you can even attempt to reset pressure after 5B without cancelling, since it's only -5.

Oh yeah, and her AoA is the third fastest in the game, tied with Narukami, and very rewarding if you hit with it near the corner. It's just harder to hit higher-level players with unless you're sneaky, and punishable on block.

If your opponent is really low on life and you just need one hit to kill them, EX Aim can be a good crossup since nobody ever looks out for it. You can even do an IAD crossup, land, and EX Aim for a double crossup lol.

Other than that, you can check out Diarmuid's massive writeup he made a while back, it gives some trickier ideas for mixup (like airdash jA> airthrow cancel whiff, landing throw) as well as everything else you could possibly want to know about Naoto:

http://pastebin.com/Sy8yK63F

Actually thinking about it, Naoto is a lot like Noel, if she had a real gun and some traps lol.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Zeromus_X

[Ichipoo]

Naoto's playstyle is basically similar to Noel sans actual zoning tools and traps as they both have somewhat mediocre normals but scary frame traps and high damage potential, kind of surprised it took a while for this to sink in lol.

And Luka, if only you didn't sell your PS3, I'd be glad to show you some Naoto stuff.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Ichipoo

[LunaKage]

I actually bought a new PS3 yesterday lol. Though I'm only on wifi, and it's the worst internet imaginable that's not dial-up lol.

Also, I'm Luka now? That's the third FFX name I've been called, after Lulu and Yuna.

Oh, and EX aim is the greatest move I could ever ask for.

[ludwig van]

scary frame traps

Uh, define 'scary' as far as Naoto is concerned, pls?

And Luna, know that EX Aim doesn't have invuln until (iirc) frame 6, and opponents familiar w/ the MU will be keeping an eye out for it, especially when Naoto's in the corner and will try to blow you up for it. (It's still a solid move though.)

Edited June 7, 2013 by ludwig van

[LunaKage]

Uh, define 'scary' as far as Naoto is concerned, pls?

If they get hit with anything in the corner, they get SMPed. Which is terrifying.

[ludwig van]

If they get hit with anything in the corner, they get SMPed. Which is terrifying.

That sounds nice, but since you're new to Naoto let me explain for you: SMPing, while an important tool to know as a Naoto player, is overrated. Reasons for this are that P4 is a high damage game in general (not every SMP starter will kill or even do more damage than any other high damaging characters' average BnB using 50 meter), bursts exists, and a lot of the ways to get SMP are going to cost you meter. The second you start doing more to the combo after using Mudoon, the opponent will burst and you'll have to start from square one meter-wise. A lot of recent Denpa (probably the best Naoto in the world) footage has him going for fate counter over SMP, so lately it seems the better way to win matches w/ Naoto is to focus on Fate the first round, then going for whatever kills the 2nd round (IK/SMP).

And no, I'm not saying "don't use SMP", but I am saying don't rely on it too much.

[Zeromus_X]

Yeah, the threat of SMP is scary, but as long as the opponent plays the matchup correctly and holds their burst for the right moment, they can keep even or stay ahead of Naoto in resources because of how meter-dependent she is. I mean, Naoto's frame traps are decent, but not like Mitsuru's "you guessed wrong on this throw, here's half your life meterless" level of threatening.

[LunaKage]

Honestly I prefer IAD combos over SMP, they are maximum hype for me. @w@

FC into triple IAD loop just because I feel like it lol, probably not anywhere close to optimal, even for meterless though.

[Doonpa]

Mixups:

Anything jump cancelable on block into:

IAD j.AxN: You can get up to 5 j.A usually or so and a lot of people crouch block this too early and get hit.

IAD j.Ax2-3 canceled into air throw into land throw/low/AOA/Throw bait: This is a common tactic that teddie players use with their own J.A since it has so many hits to it. Just another option Naoto has if the opponent is use to blocking your mash j.A stuff.

Airdash over j.C or j.A j.B: Simple cross up. Certain spacing makes it so that you can combo off j.A j.B pretty easy.

IAD j.AAB land into whatever on landing: Same mixup from the j.AA whiff airthrow trick except you use j.B right before you land to get some addition blockstun so you don't get tagged by 5A/2A mashing.

Corner knockdown using 236A~D on an airborne opponent lets you set a meaty C trap and mix the opponent off that. If you delay setting the trap you can throw the opponent before the trap hits them and reset the situation again.

Midscreen after a sweep into 236A~D knockdown, you can run up, set a D trap, then evasive action through them for a simple crossup. A really common set up and requires your opponent to respect REALLY hard. Thats the day 1 mixup. Better to go for a meaty and get some safe pressure instead. In your general pressure you always can airdash off a jump cancelable normal and cross up them with with j.C or something. Simple staggers into AOA works well if you are tricky. Blocked traps usually give you enough time to do empty jump low/jump in mix up as well. Overall Naoto's mixup is relatively simple but aren't as scary/safe as say Chie or Narukami. Naoto hits people by outplaying them in neutral and being really really annoying by moving around a lot, forcing crossups with traps in neutral, and taking advantage of them running into/blocking any traps you set.

[LunaKage]

My main problem with the IAD pressure is that my opponents always react to that with an anti-air. Is there some trick or timing to make it more air tight? Or does it just straight up fail against certain characters?