[P4A] Naoto Shirogane - Gameplay Discussion "Ace Detective"

[Darmonde]

Hi all, just started P4A recently. The pastebin doc is unfortunately not loading for me, I'll check back later on it.

I have a bunch of random questions, but I'll try to read through this thread and look at the matchup posts first. Honestly I have very little experience, so just playing will probably answer a bunch of things. One quick question though, I felt that Naoto's aoa was really bad, but it was mentioned just a few posts ago that it was one of the best in the game. Why is that? I'm mainly comparing to teddie and yukiko's, since those are the 2 characters I have the most experience with.

[Doonpa]

Hmm I see what happened now. I was typing up the mixup section today and I specified that you can only combo off the fuzzy guard against Narukami even though the fuzzy portion does work on the majority of the cast. I messed up there, and Ill correct it once I finish the rest of it and properly revise it. Thanks for the question, it helped catch that misleading statement lol.

The input is j.C, then input C+D quickly afterwards. Its main use is to make your j.Cs in general unrollable. The OS isn't as strong if you do it off the safe jump setup becomes if its done correctly, they can't roll it anyway. It's used to make sure that if you mistime your safe jump, your opponent won't be able to mash roll out of it. But against Elizabeth, you just just buffer 236B quickly when j.C is out. If you timed your j.C correctly, they won't be able to roll the safe jump and if she DPs the 236B will get you a nice Fatal CH.

And as for the pastebin doc (it should be working still), its still a very rough draft, ill have a completely revised version of it completed and posted as soon as im done writing the last section. Im sure a lot of stuff in there is poorly worded >_<.

Also Darmonde, Naoto's AOA has a start up of 24 frames which makes it tied for 2nd place in terms of start up speed. It has a relatively subtle animation as well as leaving Naoto in a short, standing counter hit state. What it lacks is a lot of armor to beat out DPs. Teddie's AOA is very slow but can cross up and has a good amount of armored frames, but is very easy to punish on block. Yukiko's is also very slow but happens to be one of the safer and more armored AOAs in the game. They have different uses than Naoto's AOA, which is more or less meant to just catch people crouching blocking instead of mashing.

[Darmonde]

The doc is working for me now, not sure what happened yesterday, thanks!

The AOAs do seem hard to rank since they vary in so many ways. Unfortunately at my level everyone is mashing, so I was trying to use it to blow through things, and it always seemed to get hit even though it was very far in the animations. Thanks for the explanation about its armor. It also seems to have a really short range, but I'll keep the details in mind.

Edit: this doc is amazing! Read the whole thing, thanks much for it. A couple questions/notes. If these are answered elsewhere feel free to just let me know where.

-236A+B you mention is only 1 frame faster startup than B version?? I never seem to be able to combo into the B version, but can easily combo into the AB. I guess most of that is because the A+B version has a huge starting hitbox? I was surprised you just glossed over this, it seemed like her only reliable special move ender midscreen. Maybe I'm giving it too much credit.

-I feel like I have a lot of problems with the range of her normals. 5A is good but its so short, you can't use it to punish almost any AoA or DP on block. I've just resorted to 5B 5C 2C for tiny damage and 2 skulls when I successfully block a dp or AoA, is there something else I can do meterless?

-5AAA can be cancelled into 214B (either with the motion or another A) on block which may help a tiny bit to keep you safe. Might be worth mentioning, but maybe not.

-If someone blocks a double fang and you get them to block 5 shots point blank then stance cancel right away, do you know the frames? It seems fairly safe, -5? I haven't gotten severely punished for this, but if this is a bad idea I don't want to get into the habit of doing it.

I'll read through this thread so maybe some of these will get answered then also. Thanks again to everyone for the wiki and to you for this doc. I was a little disappointed at first with the small number of Naoto threads, but there is really good info here.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Darmonde

[Doonpa]

Yes, its hard to rank AOAs because of their wide range of uses. In general though, i've heard the most complaints from top players about Naoto's, Narukami's, and Chie's AOA because of their speed and animations. At a higher level, your use of AOAs won't really be to beat out players mashing things like 5A/2A as they'll react to their moves being armored and they'll either jump cancel block or OMC then block. AOAs are still very good to beat out DPs at any level.

As for 5A range, its honestly not too bad for a 5A. Its no mitsuru 5A, but its still strong. You should be able to punish most DPs with a dash up 5AA 5C 236B~Cx5 or dash 5B 5C 236B~D short dash 5C IAD j.A j.C 5C 236A or use 214A~Cx5 if they are too high for a knockdown. A better punish if you have meter or burst midscreen would be a 236B Fatal Counter, which is really easy vs Narukami and Mitsuru as their DPs will probably leave them relatively close to Naoto. If your opponent is near the corner you can do a nice 4-5k combo without spending meter on this. AOAs are kinda tricky to punish as they are Level 5 moves, which inflict ~18 frames of blockstun. So you trying to dash up 5A might not work or might be a really tight punish and generally not worth the effort. Stick to 5B 5C 2C if you are comfortable with it, its not a bad combo for Naoto.

The 5th B shot out of Snipe is considered to be a Level 3 move, so that means 14 frames of blockstun. According to the wiki, it takes 13 frames to cancel out of Snipe. This seems to be potentially a safe follow up to something like Double Fangs, but I'm not sure if this data accurately represents how negative it is (its definitely not plus). I feel like Naoto's 5th shot animation might play a part in delaying the time it takes to get to cancel out of Snipe stance, so this might be unsafe if your opponent instant blocks your shots or something. I'm not sure about how legit it is. If anything, if you want to simply be safe you could try A shots as its a level 5 move, so that means 18 frames of blockstun instead. Potentially safer, but might not be as great because it doesn't hit low for the whole high/low factor off Double Fangs.

[Random Naoto]

Meterless, most dps and aoas on block can be punished for 6.6k in the corner if you have 5 meter to start with. 236B, 2A, 2B, 5C, 2[C], 5B, 5C, immediate j. D, cancel into 214CD, jump B, 236AD, 214Dx6. There's also that hell mode meterless loop starter from a counter hit 5C midscreen.

If they're too far for 5A and midscreen, a counter hit 5C at sweep range will combo into a IAD C, which gives more damage possibilities. 5C iad C, mash A gives you autocombo burst gain, 30 meter, and 2.3k. I'll trade resources for a thousand or so damage any time.

Blocked gunshots are pretty unsafe, Narukami seems to be able to punish low shots with 5B, which is 9 frames, and mitsuru 5A (5 frames) is a really tight punish for a shots.

[Ichipoo]

Diarmuid, I just scanned your write up but I'm impressed with what I read, I even learned a few things myself. You don't mind if I copy and paste some things in the wiki do you? Of course I'll give you credit.

And does somebody here know any footage of the throw OS on safejump? I'm sort of a visual learner.

[mynus]

Awesome read Diarmuid! A lot of that info you wrote up is going into the wiki I'm sure. I've been away from this game since NEC but am back to training for Winterbrawl/EVO. Hopefully we can shine some much needed light and life back into this character & game.

[Doonpa]

http://pastebin.com/Sy8yK63F

Ok, so it's finally updated. I revised it (for the most part, I probably missed a lot of stuff again >_<) and rewrote some stuff. I added in a couple of sections of stuff towards the end such as mixups and other things. The section on normals, specials, burst, and defense are relatively unchanged.

@Ichipoo: Thanks a lot. You can use whatever you like out of the guide for the wiki, I don't mind. If you can reword anything to make what I'm trying to say clearer that would be great too lol.

@mynus: Thanks a lot dude. I saw your play at NEC and got a word with you about an SMP you did to my friend during the tourney. Might head to a TSB event since im from NJ and im friends with sti1ckbug. Hopefully we'll get a chance to play and talk about Naoto stuff. Come down to a Rokrew Tourney at the break if you can and get some games in.

I'd just like to put out there that I hope this guide inspires people to pick her up and play her, or at least motivate those who have been playing her to try to explore her more. With that said, I'd like to hear what you guys do when you do get a chance to mix up your opponent. You see guys like SKD do some sick stuff involves crossups utilizing OMB and silly setups, so I was always curious to see if anyone has found any obscure tricks we haven't seen. I included two tricks in that guide that work off that concept ever since LK showed me something like SKD's setups but using Mitsuru.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Diarmuid

[Darmonde]

Thanks, Diarmuid and RandomNaoto for answering beginner Qs, especially since I'm so behind. Re-reading the updated doc now.

[Rikir]

Wow Diarmuid that looks like a great read, I cant wait to take a look when I have a chance.

Just throwing this out there, if you guys ever want, I wouldnt mind translating all the combos in the wiki/combo thread into a visual format for players to see (since its a lot easier for newer players to learn if they see the combo) when im done my exams. Theres a couple of videos that already showcase some BnBs and SMP loops, but I thought it would be a good idea to compile them all into one or two videos.

If someone else was already thinking of doing the same thing I dont mind rounding up footage or helping out :P.

If youre curious how I work, heres my Tron Combo Guide as an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJpEc9wU-W8&list=UU-FSiPF0Xw9abuMtndiQ7bw&index=6

Of course ill credit any and all contributors to the threads.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Rikir

[DerQ]

We've had a little tourney recently and I really want to step up and learned from my losses. I've felt that my approach or way of thinking about how to use Naoto lacks a certain finesse or is simply incomplete. I tend to lose the neutral game too much and end up wondering why. When I watch good Naoto footage, I often see players respecting traps and being very careful in their approach. But this doesn't mean that setting up traps = being good and this is the part I'm having problems with right now. How do I bring a player to either allow me to place traps or to be forced to respect the traps.

I'll use my first loss as an exemple. I'm fighting Labrys and whenever I end up placing one or 2 traps (One C at regular jump height and one D or C on the ground close to each other), I get blown up by a j.B approach. This happens a whole lot if I lay 2 traps too quickly and I get CH'ed out of the second one, but I also cannot feel in anyway that the traps protect me or will beat j.B in the matchup. My main issue with this is that I also do not feel comfortable using normals or AA options to beat such an approach considering the hitbox on her normals. Where I'm going with this is that in such scenarios, should I just contempt myself with dodging or place myself in a way that does not open up the opponent but allows me to maintain the neutral game going? W/e the option, I never always get a good amount of satisfaction/reward for taking these choices. (Get CH'd for mistimed AA, try to gun shot but miss my shots and get CH'd out of Aim stance, run away/dodge for no rewards in the hope of having them fuck up) To go into further details, the Labrys player was using a lot of superjump dashes and I struggle a lot against this because I forget to use B gunshots as AA in such scenarios. I don't feel like I'm talking only about Labrys and this player though, I just want to be more confident in the scenario where a player will approach impatiently/relentlessly and does not allow me to place traps. Right now, I feel like I can't do much about it and it sucks because if I did, they'd be scared or more patient and I could start playing the trap game that I want.

The other loss I had was against Chie. As soon as I lost control of the neutral game, I just ended up melting entirely under pressure. I'm content with blocking, but I think I'm not looking enough for a proper way out or her stronger ways to open you that can be reacted to (grabs, AoA, reset pressure into 5D). I assume I should just content with myself looking for AoA + grab attempts? I also assume one of my best bets could be to grind the matchup to get used to reacting to such things. The thing is that I will not play Chie/this player at persona on a regular basis. On another note, during our match I found myself to use Counter assault a lot more than I used to and it proved to be efficient. But I was still evaluating while playing what I could do instead with this spent meter. Any thoughts or feelings in regards of spending meter against Chie that way?

So that's it. I'm a bit at a loss on these aspects which cause me defeats and I really want to start learning from defeats from now on. If you have thoughts to share on this (especially the Labrys segement), I'd be much grateful.

[PI_naotos]

She broken..................gawds dayum........... IS atlus going to make a patch for this?

[Random Naoto]

She broken..................gawds dayum........... IS atlus going to make a patch for this?

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[ZomB]

She broken..................gawds dayum........... IS atlus going to make a patch for this?

i know right???

she's so good T_T

it's like she has decent tools and really high damage output

too bad she's still not top 5

Edited February 2, 2013 by ZomB

[ludwig van]

@Derq:

Labrys:

1. j.B - options against it include a proper DP (don't get crossed up), j.D (smack her out of it from a range), B/C shots (depending on the angle of the Labrys), sometimes j.C (can be tricky, j.D is generally better)
   
2. Traps - whenever you're jumping and laying down traps, just lay down 1 per jump. Lots of characters in general can get you if you try to lay down more than 1.
   
3. Labrys general - zone her, DP her chain arm, the second you knock her away w/ 5AAA, j.D, the 5th shot, 2C, ect you have the advantage. Use these times to lay out traps, if she goes to disarm them, shoot her.
   
4. Relentless opponents general - if they're airdashing at you you can airthrow, j.D, or j.B if you don't want to risk your Persona. In general try being mobile, laying down traps as you go, and frustrate your opponent. Naoto actually moves around pretty fast compared to a good chunk of the cast. Use it to your advantage, just be careful to not get anti-air'd.
   

Chie:

1. Pressure - IB 5A pressure. If they like throwing/AoAing you got to work on reacting and/or anticipating them. If he does a pressure string and you block all of it but they decided to go w/ 5D~D to try to continue it you can 2C it on reaction. Also, 214AB can be a life saver if getting out of the corner is difficult, just don't use it too much or your opponent will try spacing it to keep you in the corner.
   
2. Counter Assaulting Chie: Not a bad idea, especially considering Naoto's low health, though obviously spending it on a SMP combo is preferable. IMO, if you get the chance to play this Chie player in casuals you might want to consider not CAing him just to work on your defense more.
   
3. For more - Diarmiud posted up a pretty good write-up not too long ago. Check it out if you haven't already.
   

Edited February 2, 2013 by ludwig van

[Ohno]

Denpaaaaa!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JfsIPFnR2Y

And they didn't even use/need the SMP loops

And sorry if this is the wrong thread to post videos, but the video thread looked pretty dead...

[Zeromus_X]

One thing I really liked from those matches was the way Denpa covered setting a trap with falling or airdash jA. It stopped the Chie players from just mindlessly pushing buttons to beat out a trap set almost every time. Denpa is truly our savior, and it's awesome to see new footage of him play, but those Chie and Yu players were pretty herpaderp imo. I want to see how Denpa handles the Chie, Yu, and especially Teddie matchups against higher level players.

[Tempered]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElfaAdO7b4k so can I get comments on this?

[Zeromus_X]

That's really awesome! Shlabry's DP is annoying as hell, good to see that we can just not give a fuck with the right timing, time to grind that. I wonder if it also works on Labrys's DP.

[Sharakonta]

Timing would be different but most likely. Labrys' dp is way to slow

Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2

[Rikir]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKjH5aX3ZuM

Video I made basically covering close to everything that can be done with Naoto's 5D. Most of you guys will probably know at least 70% of the tech in this video, but I hope you like it anyway.

P.S I had some major post-production issues with this video which resulted in missing clips. Try to look past that if you can.

[Ichipoo]

Would it be asking you too much to redo the video by filling in the missing parts with clips? Other than that good work, definitely going to start using 5D more, particularly those 2AB > 5D set ups.

Also looks like I have my work cut out for me with the wiki as it looks like 5D warrants its own section on the wiki. I just need to stop being lazy.

EDIT: I'm dumb, didn't check the description to see that you included the missing clips, my question still stands though as it would be more convenient for viewers in general.

[Random Naoto]

A few friends and I (one of whom is a strong aigis player, the other who I'm just going to put on blast and assume is coming is a strong Akihiko player) are going to record a P4U related podcast this weekend mostly for fun, but also to try and get people talking about the game a little bit more and discuss the US tournaments from the last month or so.

If any of you have comments, questions, shout outs, or funny shit to say, PM it to me and we'll read/attempt to answer/laugh about it. It would definitely help us out.

[Rikir]

Would it be asking you too much to redo the video by filling in the missing parts with clips? Other than that good work, definitely going to start using 5D more, particularly those 2AB > 5D set ups.

Also looks like I have my work cut out for me with the wiki as it looks like 5D warrants its own section on the wiki. I just need to stop being lazy.

EDIT: I'm dumb, didn't check the description to see that you included the missing clips, my question still stands though as it would be more convenient for viewers in general.

Believe me; ive tried everything in my power to include as many clips as possible, but my computer simply REFUSES to include all the clips despite me reprocessing the video at least several dozen times (I spent an entire day doing this and it wouldnt work). I even closed every process on my computer that wasnt relevant to the program I was using. Clips ended going missing anyway :\. My guess is that all the captions I made was causing problems with the video or something. I've always had this problem but its never been this bad.

I dont know what else to do, I either gotta upgrade my computer or get a new program. I hate seeing it presented this way too >_>.

[Ichipoo]

http://youtu.be/Ba5pKwdK9Kw

More footage from our god. Sure he made some weird decisions/mistakes near the end that made me cringe a bit, but that first round was beautiful.