Errol Posted November 30, 2012 Posted November 30, 2012 Complete prorations. 5A / 300/100/ 75 5B / 520/100/ 84 5BB/ 400/100/ 80 5C / 640/100/ 89 5CC/ 620/100/ 87 2A / 300/100/ 75 2B / 400/ 90/ 80 2BB/ 480/ 90/ 80 2C / 660/ 90/ 87 2CC/ 680/100/ 87 6A / 620/ 80/ 89 6B / 480/ 90/ 92 6BB/ 560/ 90/ 92 6C /250*6/100/94 6CC/300*3/100/84 3C / 720/ 95/ 94 3CC/ 980/ 95/ 84 JA / 300/ 90/ 77 JB / 420/ 90/ 80 JBB/ 570/ 90/ 84 JC / 530/ 90/ 84 JCC/ 680/ 90/ 87 6 Throw /0,1400/100/60 4 Throw /0,1400/100/60 Air Throw/0,1400/100/60 CT /1000/ 80/100 ※Ignores character combo rate 236A/ 600/ 80/ 67 236B/ 700/ 80/ 72 236C/ 800/ 80/ 82 236D/1100/ 80/ 89 Tackle aura/280*7/ 80/ 99*7 214B/ 750/ 75/ 75 214D/1100/ 75/ 87 22B/ 600/100/ 84 22D/ 900/100/ 87 22B(Charged)/ 900/100/ 87 22D(Charged)/1200/100/ 94 623C/ 800/ 60/ 84 623D/550*3/ 70/ 82 J236A/ 800/100/ 89 A Proj/ 300/ 75/ 90 J236D/ 950/100/ 92 D Proj/ 450/ 75/100 J214A/ 500/ 90/ 67 J214B/ 650/ 90/ 72 J214C/ 800/ 90/ 82 J214D/1000/ 90/ 92 Followup ABC Dive/1000/xxx/ 82 Dive aura /240*9/ 90/ 99*9 46C/ 300/ 75/ 90 46D/ 450/ 75/100 Command throw / 0,0,80*12/ 90/100,80,64,80*11 ※960 guaranteed damage 236236C/300,700*3/100/ 92*4 ※Guaranteed 60,140*3 D0-236236D/300,2000/100/ 92*2 ※Guaranteed 60,600 D1-236236D/300,2250/100/ 92*2 ※Guaranteed 60,675 D2-236236D/300,2630/100/ 92*2 ※Guaranteed 60,789 D3-236236D/300,3150/100/ 92*2 ※Guaranteed 60,945 D4-236236D/300,900*5/100/ 92*6 ※Guaranteed 60,270*5 D5-236236D/300,690*9/100/ 92*10 ※Guaranteed 60,207*9 D0-236236D(OD)/300,620*4/100/ 92*5 ※Guaranteed 60,155*4 D1-236236D(OD)/300,750*4/100/ 92*5 ※Guaranteed 60,187*4 D2-236236D(OD)/300,590*7/100/ 92*8 ※Guaranteed 60,147*7 D3-236236D(OD)/300,720*7/100/ 92*8 ※Guaranteed 60,180*7 D4-236236D(OD)/300,680*10/100/ 92*11 ※Guaranteed 60,170*10 D5-236236D(OD)/300,810*10/100/ 92*11 ※Guaranteed 60,202*10 Also - Mugen provides a 110% proration bonus the first time any D special hits.
pktazn Posted November 30, 2012 Author Posted November 30, 2012 Many thanks for getting that info Errol; Updated it in the first post.
Surf Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 So it looks like 236D still otgs and makes them wallbounce off a 22D hit (allowing more possibilities than EX). Im guessing because their considered airborne after 22D. I saw a Tsubaki player try to wallbounce otg with 236D when they were on the ground sliding from regular 22B and the character continued to slide on the ground after the 236D. It was interesting, and nice to know she can still do it Remembered it was mentioned a couple months back but I do wonder if 6A matrix will still be viable. Looks like she has little to no time to 6A after 22B no matter if its at the beginning or end of a combo or if it's charged. 22D on the other hand, Im not too sure about that one, she might be able to. 1 charge for emergency tech oki seems ok. And you can go right into command grab to get your charge back +1 as well. Charges seem much easier to get this time around so I'd be willing to use some for 6A oki every once in awhile.
Errol Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 Yea, 22d > 236d clearly connected. but.. it might be proration based? twitters and blogs of kuresu and others def mention it as a sad point. The videos we see of it are all 5b >22d>236d. 5bb5cc route might not work. proration or time. since there seems to be some kind of time component in combos now...
Surf Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 It could possibly be proration based. Btw is the Mugen 110% bonus the same she received in EX. Or did Mugen just ignore the scaling in the combo along with D moves doing more damage
Errol Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 Mugen in CSEX boosts prorations of all D moves by 2-3%, and boosts damage of all D moves by about 100. It additionally has a 110% proration bonus on the special dive effect of the 3D series. Mugen in CP just gives a 110% proration bonus the first time you hit with a D move. that is all.
Surf Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 Maybe nerfing Mugen to compensate for being able to get charges easier. But that change, is still really good. Other than 3D loops, we dont really repeat many D moves within Mugen
Errol Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) Yeah, mugen on paper looks weaker, but I dunno how it'll end up. The other diff is that D moves are just higher damage in CP, so being able to use more of them is kinda sorta relatively stronger? Except not really, because even if you don't mugen, you still have access to crush trigger, and at times you have access to blade super (blade super does hella damage. e.g. fully charged 22d> blade super -> 1200 -> 3256 -> you can combo afterwards. Kinda houtenjinish but with long startup.. worse p2). And you can 214b> max charge 22d so really shouldn't you be able to stick this into a lot of combos? I think.. But I guess fundamentally the gameplay looks like you do chargeless combos in midscreen (which can reach about 2700), and spend the charge elsewhere. neutral,corner combos, dp mash(lol so much dmg). mugens still got that nice 'combo anywhere' thing. Edited December 2, 2012 by Errol
Airk Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 Yeah, mugen on paper looks weaker, but I dunno how it'll end up. The other diff is that D moves are just higher damage in CP, so being able to use more of them is kinda sorta relatively stronger? Except not really, because even if you don't mugen, you still have access to crush trigger, and at times you have access to blade super (blade super does hella damage. e.g. fully charged 22d> blade super -> 1200 -> 3256 -> you can combo afterwards. Kinda houtenjinish but with long startup.. worse p2). And you can 214b> max charge 22d so really shouldn't you be able to stick this into a lot of combos? I think.. But I guess fundamentally the gameplay looks like you do chargeless combos in midscreen (which can reach about 2700), and spend the charge elsewhere. neutral,corner combos, dp mash(lol so much dmg). mugens still got that nice 'combo anywhere' thing. Mugen looks... kinda break-even-ish, because you get the bonus proration earlier in the combo (even doing a 3D loop, you'll get your bonus proration from 623D rather from the aura later on) and as you say, moves do a little more damage. OTOH, the do prorate slightly worse, OTTH, some starters (Raw 5CC for example) are a little stronger now, but then, some are weaker. Mostly looks like a big wash to me, and may well end up being used less simply because other options are better. Good job, Arcsys. Anyway, I didn't see the proration values for the blade super in the list? I'm hyped for D moves being strong in neutral again. It really looks like 236D is at least even on block. And yes, holy hell, so many DPs from Tsubaki players this time out.
Errol Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 Blade super is 8 X 450, P1 60, P2 96. (per hit)
Airk Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) Blade super is 8 X 450, P1 60, P2 96. (per hit) That's not a SUPER terrible P2; it works out to like a 72. Which is pretty low, but not a total game ender. Edit: Also, did I hear the announcers calling it the "Banana super" in the Spinoza vs Mutou fight? x.x On unrelated notes: Does anyone else think that 6A might actually be FASTER? Seems like it's getting a LOT more use and hitting a lot more often than it used to? I wonder if j.CC > j.D > j.C > hitconfirm to j.214D would be a viable corner gimmick. :P Edited December 2, 2012 by Airk
Kiba Posted December 2, 2012 Posted December 2, 2012 Does anyone else think that 6A might actually be FASTER? Seems like it's getting a LOT more use and hitting a lot more often than it used to? It seems the same to me. On a side note, I've been going through the CP combo thread several times and it's kinda just hit me how the SMP system has affected some of Tsubaki's combos. For example, if you use 6A > 5CC > 6BB > 214B, you can't end the combo the ground special ender and you'd have to go for the air ender. Well, you can use the ground ender if you want but expect the opponent to tech immediately once you use 214B again. So it's either about cutting the overall damage and getting better positioning, oki and the charge cancel 22B, or getting more damage with the air ender. Midscreen the air ender combos are alright, but in the corner, ideally you'd want to use the normal ender because of the benefits.
pktazn Posted December 2, 2012 Author Posted December 2, 2012 Yeah, I've thought 6A looked faster since Day 1 even though others have said it looks mostly the same but the only way to really know if it is or if something else happened to it is when the frame data is released sadly. It could also just look faster because of how they sped up the battles in general but it's still the same ol' 6A haha.
Surf Posted December 3, 2012 Posted December 3, 2012 6A seems a tiny bit faster to me. Not by a lot. Probably 2-3 frames at most, if there is a difference. Its weird a lot of people were complaining about how 5B feels now, but imo it looks like its been changed to be somewhat in between CS and CSE 5B. Not CS fast but not CSE slow. Recovery seems really quick now, which is always good. Now if only it went to easy to be able to low profile it...
Errol Posted December 3, 2012 Posted December 3, 2012 5b is 9 frames in CS. 10 frames in CS2. Just the recovery that sucks. although 5b 10 frames compared with ragna 8 frames does suck. Since you can jump clean out of 6a I don't know if it really is faster...
Airk Posted December 3, 2012 Posted December 3, 2012 (edited) 5b is 9 frames in CS. 10 frames in CS2. Yes, but the active and recovery frames increased as well - it went from 9/3/13 to 10/5/17 - that's a seven frame swing, which is why people were able to see if it. If it just went from 9 to 10 startup, I doubt anyone would have noticed until the frame data came out. (Edit: Oh, and I think you meant Extend, not CS2) Maybe it's 9/5/13 now. That'd be awesome. Just the recovery that sucks. although 5b 10 frames compared with ragna 8 frames does suck. To be "fair" Ragna's 5B doesn't reach it's full extension until frame 13 or 14, so depending on spacing, blah blah stuff. I'm pretty sure this is why he has basically the fastest "spacing" 5B in the game. (By which I mean "excluding stuff like Tao's 5B which has no range.") Since you can jump clean out of 6a I don't know if it really is faster... Have we really seen many examples of this? I just tested in Extend, and while it's not possible to jump out by just holding up if you do 5BB > 6A, practically any delay at all makes jumpout possible. (indeed, my first recording test didn't gatling quite tight enough and I was able to upback out.) And you can always, as far as I can tell, jump out of 2B>6A because of the reduced blockstun. I think we may be making too much of this 'someone was able to jump out of it once' thing, unless there's some info somewhere indicating that you should just be upbacking? Edited December 3, 2012 by Airk
Errol Posted December 5, 2012 Posted December 5, 2012 now that I look at it, the command throw motion is a convenient one. HCB. HCF would be annoying, RDP would be a little annoying too. Cool.
Airk Posted December 5, 2012 Posted December 5, 2012 now that I look at it, the command throw motion is a convenient one. HCB. HCF would be annoying, RDP would be a little annoying too. Cool. Definitely. Half circle back is convenient for this. And the 'thinning' of her other moves allows it to not have button overlap with a QCB.
Errol Posted December 5, 2012 Posted December 5, 2012 Definitely. Half circle back is convenient for this. And the 'thinning' of her other moves allows it to not have button overlap with a QCB. Oh really. I didn't notice this part. Sweet. Some other info. Charge cancels during OD recover quicker. JC>Charge cancel>JC should combo during OD. 5C charge canceled is plus. Airk you probably know the charge cancel numbers better than I do, but this probably means 5b, 5bb, and definitely 5cc are plus too? but 2b and 2bb probably aren't.
FatalCounter Posted December 5, 2012 Posted December 5, 2012 Where can I find the Charge cancel numbers in Extend? Thanks.
BatousaiJ Posted December 5, 2012 Posted December 5, 2012 Quicker charge cancel in OD should open up the gate for some new combos and some very interesting frame traps/pressure strings. Given our OD gives us basically everything good that Tsu has to offer, it's going to be quite the challenge to balancing out when we should be using it defensively and when we should save it for an offensive chance to turn the tides. I see myself using it more offensively and playing like I have no bursts but that too will vary greatly depending on match up situations.
Adam0812 Posted December 5, 2012 Posted December 5, 2012 Oh really. I didn't notice this part. Sweet. Some other info. Charge cancels during OD recover quicker. JC>Charge cancel>JC should combo during OD. 5C charge canceled is plus.. Oooo, sounds flashy
TheGreatReptar Posted December 5, 2012 Posted December 5, 2012 Where can I find the Charge cancel numbers in Extend? Thanks. Charge canceling takes 18 frames to complete, so level 4 moves are 0 on block after charge canceling, level 3 moves -2, level 2 -5, level 1 -7 and level 0 moves -9. 5CC is her only level 4 CCable moves, and 5C, 5B and 5BB are her only level 3 CCable moves. It's not really worth CCing her other moves.
Daedron Posted December 5, 2012 Posted December 5, 2012 >Kuresu does Blade super while cornered by Ragna >Ragna activates Carnage scissors on the super flash >Carnage Scissors whiffs and Ragna gets hit and dies. Thoughts? Blade super only vulnerable near the end of it's start-up frames maybe? :V
abadlime Posted December 5, 2012 Posted December 5, 2012 I would assume so since people have seen her been hit out of it and i have only seen whiffs when she's floats away or around that time.
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