[CP] Tsubaki Changes and Discussion

[Errol]

i think it has usually given 2 during loketests.

[pktazn]

Yup, looking over the past loketest info it says that they usually received 2 charges from the command grab alone. So hopefully the guy didn't get 2 charges in the video because he RC'd it. :/

As for ground charging being worse, it's expected because they've given us other means to gain charge. I'm sure we all know that in the CS series, the only way to get charges (literally) was just our 5D, 2D, j.D. It'll be different in CP but I'm willing to hope it's for the better since, as Kiba said, we appear to have better overall pressure.

[Surf]

I thought some loktest notes said you can RC the command grab at the right time and get the 2 charges and get a combo in

[Kiba]

Regarding that this is what it says:

• Seems like the command throw is a series of Tsubaki slicing them up with the 6C blades. There's lots of places you can RC, but there might only be one place you can RC and still gain charges.
  

You're most likely right, as it's possible the player in the video may have RC'd at the wrong time (wrong time to gain 2 charges)

Edit: I was literally going to say 'Yea what PK said below' haha! I've still got it!

Edited November 17, 2012 by Kiba

[pktazn]

Looking at the past loketests the only time that was reported was the first one. I mean it might still be possible but people haven't found a way to capitalize off it yet for obvious reasons but going from the video, you have to really know when to RC it.

Edit:

AND KIBA BEAT ME TO IT CURSE YOUR EU FUTURENESS. that has nothing to do with it lol

[Errol]

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff we don't really know from the location tests. The new super, for example, or if they did anything with mugen.

[Errol]

another FYI, you only get like 40 frames for guard crushing someone.

In other words, there is almost zero time to charge. if you charge at all, you'll be giving up a 6c starter, so I don't know if we'll even charge at all.

[Surf]

I wonder if guard crushing from CT's alter proration like it does in the game already

[Errol]

I wonder if guard crushing from CT's alter proration like it does in the game already

Yes, it's the same. P1 is 80 I think, not sure how it compares.

[Kiba]

In other words, there is almost zero time to charge. if you charge at all, you'll be giving up a 6c starter, so I don't know if we'll even charge at all.

I suspected this would be the case, but I'm happy with this! Tsubaki is now sounding like the rush down character that she is supposed to be and I'm looking forward to this. I cannot stress how excited I am!

[Airk]

I suspected this would be the case, but I'm happy with this! Tsubaki is now sounding like the rush down character that she is supposed to be and I'm looking forward to this. I cannot stress how excited I am!

What exactly have we heard that leads us to believe we have better pressure? Other than "we have a command grab now"?

[Kiba]

What exactly have we heard that leads us to believe we have better pressure? Other than "we have a command grab now"?

Good question. Other than the command grab we have 5BB which is tighter (minor and not especially significant to pressure unless there have been other changes to her normals) but we also have a seemingly good ground projectile. We can use it as oki to force further pressure or bait DPs with it, just like how Makoto used to do it. The projectile can also be used in neutral in which the opponent would have to block or jump to avoid it, but both options give us the opportunity to run in and do whatever we want. We also have projectile > 236D which I suspect will be advantageous on block and cause enough blockstun for us to do whatever we want.

The pressure may not be great like other characters, but it certainly is an improvement.

[Daedron]

Our air moves are charge cancel-able giving us some neat tricks like Platinum with her Swallow Moon and staffless Litchi with 623D(air version)

j.C -> charge cancel -> another j.C for overhead or j.C -> charge cancel -> land -> 2B for empty jump in low, or go for the throw/command grab.

And the charge cancel is fast enough to be able to barrier and bait DP's as well if they didn't change anything about j.D in CP.

And our D moves seem to be + on block or at least even again, at least I hope 236D and 22D are + at the very least.

[Errol]

Well I hope 22D is + on block, but I don't need + on 236D. But I would like for everything else to be less disadvantageous on block, if not positive. I.e. maybe 214B/D and 22B, since 22a and 214a/c are gone.

Also gonna suck not having j.236c. and j.214C RC combos may be gone, I don't know.

cuz 236x was crazy good in CS2, but it's obnoxious for the other person and gets us called braindead. I don't really feel that I need it

I still want to see what the command throw is really like. In CP, we can even get a bit more damage off a chargeless throw than we already can. 2 charges probably isn't worth it in the corner. Except for the whole 'untechable' thing.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Errol

[pktazn]

cuz 236x was crazy good in CS2, but it's obnoxious for the other person and gets us called braindead. I don't really feel that I need it

I still want to see what the command throw is really like. In CP, we can even get a bit more damage off a chargeless throw than we already can. 2 charges probably isn't worth it in the corner. Except for the whole 'untechable' thing.

This is just a personal thought but 236X was a legitimate way to approach in CS2 (without being too overpowering since we had to space it correctly) and if the other person simply calls us being braindead for using it, that just means they weren't willing to try and figure out how to deal with it imo.

I think the 2 charges would be good anywhere since charging in neutral has been nerfed. Getting any kind of charge, somehow, would be advantageous I think. Of course, my statement completely depends on how the command throw is and how her overall gameplan has changed.

[Kiba]

Our air moves are charge cancel-able giving us some neat tricks like Platinum with her Swallow Moon and staffless Litchi with 623D(air version)

j.C -> charge cancel -> another j.C for overhead or j.C -> charge cancel -> land -> 2B for empty jump in low, or go for the throw/command grab.

And the charge cancel is fast enough to be able to barrier and bait DP's as well if they didn't change anything about j.D in CP.

Oh yea I forgot about this thanks for the reminder. I suspect it'll get used a helluva lot if it proves to be really good, but remember since we have landing recovery after air charging, we'd have to RC to followup, or unless we are really fast following up with 5A. j.CC being charge cancellabe is useful too!

And our D moves seem to be + on block or at least even again, at least I hope 236D and 22D are + at the very least.

Well I hope 22D is + on block, but I don't need + on 236D. But I would like for everything else to be less disadvantageous on block, if not positive. I.e. maybe 214B/D and 22B, since 22a and 214a/c are gone.

If 236D was + I can see the many benefits with that, but is there much usefulness in 22D being advantageous? Loss of unblocable + charges being more difficult to obtain, I can understand if 22D was + on block.

Edit: Hmm I wonder what the P1 of her projectile is...

Edited November 18, 2012 by Kiba

[Airk]

Well I hope 22D is + on block, but I don't need + on 236D. But I would like for everything else to be less disadvantageous on block, if not positive. I.e. maybe 214B/D and 22B, since 22a and 214a/c are gone.

Also gonna suck not having j.236c. and j.214C RC combos may be gone, I don't know.

So mostly, we don't really know?

Though I actually really like 5BB being tighter, because it makes me sad when I try to use it to hitconfirm and someone DPs me after 5B. And with the reduced hitstop in CP, hitconfirm tools are going to be more important.

cuz 236x was crazy good in CS2, but it's obnoxious for the other person and gets us called braindead. I don't really feel that I need it

I wish they'd stop doing such absurd sweeping changes. Fine. People were pissed off by the frame advantage. Make it unsafe. But there was no reason to also nerf the starting proration to hell. Hopefully that gets rolled back or something.

I still want to see what the command throw is really like. In CP, we can even get a bit more damage off a chargeless throw than we already can. 2 charges probably isn't worth it in the corner. Except for the whole 'untechable' thing.

Yeah. More detail is necessary.

I don't think our projectile is going to be anywhere near as good as Comet Canon was for Oki, because Comet canon would hit 4 times, which essentially meant much longer blockstun, whereas our projectile seems like just a single normal hit, which is nice-ish, but nothing special. (how often do you see Jin using Ice Swords for Oki?). Curious to see how this one pans out in neutral, moreso than as 'pressure'.

Edit: Plus on block 22D is super useful for one major reason: D-cancels. It means that you can make any 236 or 214 ground move safe and continue pressure afterwards. That's pretty huge. Of course, it does depend on those moves being worth using overall, and the non-D 214 series was pretty close to useless in EX except as combo filler.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Airk

[Errol]

I'm also gonna assume that CH 22D is going to rape in CP. It's useful to have a yet another pressure extender move, that can come after pretty much anything, and punishes mashing hard..

like 6b>22d. I used to use 6b>22x a lot in CS2, because a CH 22x was pretty awesome then. (I still don't know why they nerfed it so much. I still use 22a in neutral sometimes, but other chars have similar moves that pay how 22x used to.)

Plus 22b vs 22d is somewhat ambiguous to most people I think. I find if I do some 6bb>22c's (slight charge) on people, and then instead do a 6bb>22d, it usually works.

Granted 22d won't be unblockable in CP so that last bit doesn't matter. But those are the lines I'm thinking along when I think about 22d being + on block. Besides it letting you turn 236x/214x into pressure extenders too.

I also want to see, is the new super perhaps really good for oki? or just a ranged punish? what is it going to be good for?

I'm looking forward to having an actually good super...hopefully.

[pktazn]

Now that I think about it, the new super is pretty much her only new move we've heard the least about. Maybe if we're lucky it could be similar to Mitsuru's Mabufudyne? Though looking at how it was in trailer I doubt that's the case unless it's changed from then.

Also, though it's probably counter-intuitive, if you were to RC it I wonder if the blades would still all launch.

Hopefully we'll see all of these in action next week~ though I'll be gone for about four days thanks to Thanksgiving hahahaha...

EDIT: Looking at the last two loketests info the blade super was consistent in that it took a long time for it to start though apparently it's really easy to use. I'm really hoping ArcSys changed it lol.

For those interested this is from the first loketest:

• New super calls upon 8 blades to home in on opponent, but is not guaranteed to come out. If all 8 blades hit it is slightly less than 1600 damage. If all blades are blocked it gives long hitstun as they hit one after one other.
  
  
  From the second:
  
  • Blades super: Time from setting up the blades to shooting them is so long that it doesn't feel like you'd be able to stick it in any combos.
    
  • Blade super easy to use.
    
  • Blade super doesn't have invincibility. The blades take so long to start firing, that you should have plenty of time to guarantee something like (Hazama's super), to counter it.
    
  • D Blade super doesn't exist, and the special effect comes from 236D'ing through a projectile.
    

Edited November 18, 2012 by pktazn

[Errol]

Yeah, I wouldn't be crazy about a super you can only use for pressure if you also have another 50 heat. It's not P4U where you can get heat from bursts or from going low on life so.. I'd still use it though

Reports have been that it is too slow to stick in combos, and it doesn't have invulnerability, and slow startup/projectiles aren't guaranteed to come out, so it hasn't proved to be great. But there's gotta be something good about it. Or maybe it'll be buffed before the 21st.

[Kiba]

Regarding 22D being advantageous, thanks Airk and Errol for the explanations.

I'm also pretty intrigued in the blade super and lol PK, but it's all good!

Edited November 18, 2012 by Kiba

[Surf]

I actually think 214D will be a much better move. As we saw from loktest notes she can actually combo into 214D on crouching from 5CC whereas she was never able to before in the other iterations. So I'm guessing 214D has much faster startup time. Another note also said that it feels even on block. So odds are it has less recovery as well. Right now its 22 f startup and -7 on block

It could also be possible either 5B or 5BB are better now because the tightness in the string now. Maybe 5B has less recovery again.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Surf

[Errol]

CSEX: 2d , 96f -> 3 charges

CP: 2d appears to be like 5 charges in 5 seconds. 300f. constant recovery rate

[Errol]

Air hit of 6c downs the opponent... You can charge in the air while rising, and then connect with JC afterwards! Awesome! Wonder how much charge this can get?

5CC>623C>J236D>J214D>6C>JD>JC>5C2CC>JC>JCC>J214A > 4136

BBCC>BBD (max charge 22D)>dash>6C>JD>JC>5C2CC>aerial

Edited November 21, 2012 by Errol

[pktazn]

That from Spinoza? I think was able to understand one of his combos lol

5CC > 623C > j236D j214D > 6C > jD > jC > 5C2CC > jC > jCC > j.214A (4136)

EDIT: YAY I GOT IT RIGHT xD

Also livestream for CP. No Tsubaki but hey maybe we'll get lucky! http://www.ustream.tv/channel/game-carnival

It's Ragna arcade mode atm.

Edited November 21, 2012 by pktazn