Is this game worth it?

[crispylinks77]

First off, I like Blazblue and will be getting Chrono Phantasm when it comes to consoles. What I want to know is, is this game really worth it?

In my opinion, this game is only popular because it has the Persona label on it. I watched the gameplay and it looks lacking. However, even though I don't like it, everyone and their mom seems to be praising this game. The dumbest thing is, even people who hate BlazBlue says this game is awesome... I don't get it.

Can someone explain to me why this game is so good and if I should buy it?

[SolxBaiken]

The worth of a fighting game is dependent solely on the user; just because the masses deem it worth of play doesn't mean it will immediately click with you. P4U is a weird game, it's like a amalgam of so many things, so it's really hard to solely relate it to one game. Me personally, I'm just passing time with it (like you said, everyone is playing it, and it'll be about a month till the 3 games I'm actually playing come out) and I have my share of annoyances with the title, but it's definitely entertaining. Find some way to sample the game before committing to a complete buy though.

I honestly COULD NOT tell you why people who typically hate this genre of fighter are into this game though (still trying to figure it out myself, lol) but maybe it will get the community as a whole into them.

[crispylinks77]

The worth of a fighting game is dependent solely on the user; just because the masses deem it worth of play doesn't mean it will immediately click with you. P4U is a weird game, it's like a amalgam of so many things, so it's really hard to solely relate it to one game. Me personally, I'm just passing time with it (like you said, everyone is playing it, and it'll be about a month till the 3 games I'm actually playing come out) and I have my share of annoyances with the title, but it's definitely entertaining. Find some way to sample the game before committing to a complete buy though.

I honestly COULD NOT tell you why people who typically hate this genre of fighter are into this game though (still trying to figure it out myself, lol) but maybe it will get the community as a whole into them.

Thanks, man. Glad I'm not the only one wondering about it. I'll probably just wait till a friend gets it first to try it out.

[Hammerguard]

I think it's mainly the character designs that were turning people away from Blazblue. P4A (for the most part) is a bunch of humans, it doesn't look nearly as weird as Blazblue does with all the crazy characters and overwhelming variety of playstyles. That and people say P4A is closer to GG than BB as well as faster gameplay. I haven't played it myself yet so I don't know.

I remember asking Dacidbro why he feels it's better than Blazblue (in stream chat) and he said that the mechanics themselves are an improvement.

[Hammerguard]

I myself would rather stick with Blazblue, I like the whole universe that Arcsys has created. I haven't played P4A but I don't think a story about a bunch of high school kids getting sucked into a TV is all the interesting. Also, BB is much more fleshed out at this point, reaching 20+ character now. I'm more hype for CP than I ever was for P4A.

I skipped out on Extended (bullshit release IMO) so that might have something to do with it.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Hammerguard

[Shazam]

On why people who usually don't like air dashers bought Persona:

It's a fast paced, new fighting game. They might have looked into the mechanics and thought they seemed cool.

They have probably played Persona 3 or 4, or like me, have played other SMT games. It's like a dream come true.

This would also mean they're already familiar with characters and have character love, making it even more appealing.

They've secretly known all along that their games are Japanese as well and even have air dashing in some of them.

As far as BlazBlue getting hate, I can see why.

The game is basically a meta-ironic Guilty Gear, I've heard the cast described as a wheel of cliches among other things, people generally don't like the characters. They tend to have just glanced at it without giving it a second chance though.

When CT first came out, it was unpolished and unfinished. It was also broken. This didn't stop it from being fun, but we were outshined by SF4 and shunned for ice car spam, and competitive gameplay being dominated by top tiers.

We're on the 3rd version of the same game. We also seem to get releases right around the time new Capcom fighters are coming out, strangely enough. Poor us.

Coming back to the characters... Many people think that the game just tries to be GG and fails miserably. Certain character designs, both gameplay and otherwise, are just god awful. To me it's part of the saltiness and fun, but some people really get into the negativity.

The mechanics are, simply put, outdated. Throw reject miss is a terrible system, primers need to be revamped or removed, gold burst is +4, etc.

"I liken BlazBlue to the first major studio release of a really popular garage rock band. Guilty Gear was edgy, cool, and unpolished, and everyone loved it. BlazBlue is that "band's" first major release, and it has all the bells and whistles of a fully polished release, but some of that raw magic got buffed out in the process. It feels a little soulless.

Honestly I think that's why so many people still revere GG but just don't get on the BB bandwagon" - s0nicfan on P4A forum at GFAQs

This quote represents how GG players feel about BB. So we have a community divided, and with little to no interest in the game... well, there's nowhere to go. After being removed from the Evo mainstage, we got just over 80 people at the side tourney, which is not a lot.

So all that said, Persona is a fresh game with elements from both BB, and GG, with it's own unique ones as well. It seems to have learned from the mistakes of BlazBlue, outsold BlazBlue, and, in a way, with it's success it shined a new light onto it and will attract new players for sure. In Persona the dreaded Throw Reject Miss is gone, okizeme is really strong, and every character is viable. The removal of FD/barrier and making true air unblockable anti-airs has made it more aggressive than BB. I have to agree with Dacidbro and say the mechanics are a great improvement. This game is well worth it if you can find a copy, the online is booming and the netcode is really, really solid. Apparently people are even playing it offline in places

[AeternumSomnium]

I think you're right to assume it has popularity because of it's title. In fact I'm certain that it owes a large chunk of its immediate fame to the Persona title. HOWEVER, the game itself offers more than just a nostalgia trip. While I'll admit that I don't much care for Labrys or the story, (Especially when they cliffhang-ered it like fucking BB) the gameplay is pretty fun.

Being a Blazblue player for so long now, going to this game was a very strange and different experience. I like Blazblue, hell, I like the stupidly convoluted story and all the generic and bizarre characters. But going from BB to this game was, a bit of an eye-opener. I realized that I had been really getting my hand held for combos and attack executions--while also getting raped with stupid systems like the dreaded throw-reject system and the stupid primer nonsense.

I still love BB, and plan on Getting Chronophantasm when it comes out, but alas, I will have a new perspective on it. Hell with Persona I feel like I'm getting challenged a whole lot more--and not just by online players and tier systems either (Which is what BB became for me); the game itself offers me a refreshing and new experience.

Obviously there's a lot of opinion in there, but lets' be honest, the general consensus is the fighting in Persona is much more intense in terms of executions and timing--and because of that, I feel that it has a bit of a superiority to BB.

To each their own though.

[mAc Chaos]

What's wrong with TRM. I always liked the throw mind games it brought in.

[Airk]

What's wrong with TRM. I always liked the throw mind games it brought in.

I concur; TRM is one of the smartest throw systems I've seen this generation. It punishes people for guessing and rewards smart play. It blows my mind that after years of hearing people BITCHING about how much throws "suck" in BB because of the long tech window, they're now all mysteriously silent when P4 comes out using a very similar window but without all the things that made the BB throw system smart.

Guard primers? I can take them or leave them, but I generally feel that having some sort of guard break system makes games more interesting. I feel this is something that's a little lacking in Persona. That said, in games that move as rapidly as all these games do, turtling isn't really a big issue that needs a complicated system to solve. On the first hand though, I really like the level of strategy that primers add to BB's burst system - P4A had to add an entire new type of burst to even approach that level of depth.

[AeternumSomnium]

What's wrong with TRM. I always liked the throw mind games it brought in.

My personal qualm with the throw reject system in BB was that even when I predicted when I was going to be grabbed--it didn't always work!

Heh, "I see what you're doin"--or--"You're getting awfully close to me there buddy. . ."

*Proceeds to grab*

I see what he's doing and try to break out.

Nope.

That's what irritated me. I understand that this is mainly an online internet connection problem, it isn't the system's fault so much. But when I've fought people on Persona and been grabbed, almost EVERY time I can break out of it.

Hell, if persona starts that up more online than you'll hear me bitching about it too, but as of right now, I seem to be doing better with grabs.

I concur; TRM is one of the smartest throw systems I've seen this generation. It punishes people for guessing and rewards smart play. It blows my mind that after years of hearing people BITCHING about how much throws "suck" in BB because of the long tech window, they're now all mysteriously silent when P4 comes out using a very similar window but without all the things that made the BB throw system smart.

Smart Play?

Ehhhh......I wouldn't go that far. Sure you can throw in a....throw...to give some good mix-ups if you're wailing on someone or they're getting uncomfortably close to you. But I mean, let's not forget that some of the time, people throw out of reflex - not so much out of strategy. It can be smart play, but I wouldn't say it's always smart play.

And how do you mean bitching about the long tech window? I have multiple ideas right now and not quite sure what you're getting at.

Guard primers? I can take them or leave them, but I generally feel that having some sort of guard break system makes games more interesting. I feel this is something that's a little lacking in Persona. That said, in games that move as rapidly as all these games do, turtling isn't really a big issue that needs a complicated system to solve. On the first hand though, I really like the level of strategy that primers add to BB's burst system - P4A had to add an entire new type of burst to even approach that level of depth.

Depth?

Hmm, we're approaching opinionated waters now. I would generally agree that the primer system did have some intricacy to it that when ideally approached, was pretty solid. But practically, no. Especially with how some characters attack loops and miscellaneous stuff knocked down primers like dominoes. Persona's is certainly less intricate I guess, but I would place more money in the "Synthesized and better" field personally.

[Rhiya]

P4A is better than BB just because the base mechanics are better.

Hard knockdowns actually exist, air unblockables actually exist (that you can't just barrier out of), you can't block for x frames after jumping, etc.

My personal qualm with the throw reject system in BB was that even when I predicted when I was going to be grabbed--it didn't always work!

BB's throw system was only good if you actually understood and used OS tech.

Every time you tell someone to use OS tech in America, though, they just go "lol I can react to green throws so I don't need to" even though they're about as fast as Rachel's instant overheads, which are called "instant" for a reason

[Airk]

My personal qualm with the throw reject system in BB was that even when I predicted when I was going to be grabbed--it didn't always work!

Heh, "I see what you're doin"--or--"You're getting awfully close to me there buddy. . ."

*Proceeds to grab*

I see what he's doing and try to break out.

Nope.

You were anticipating. You HAVE to break throws on reaction.

That's what irritated me. I understand that this is mainly an online internet connection problem, it isn't the system's fault so much. But when I've fought people on Persona and been grabbed, almost EVERY time I can break out of it.

Maybe the window is even longer.

Hell, if persona starts that up more online than you'll hear me bitching about it too, but as of right now, I seem to be doing better with grabs.

Heh. Why don't you just take the head start and run with it?

Smart Play?

Ehhhh......I wouldn't go that far. Sure you can throw in a....throw...to give some good mix-ups if you're wailing on someone or they're getting uncomfortably close to you. But I mean, let's not forget that some of the time, people throw out of reflex - not so much out of strategy. It can be smart play, but I wouldn't say it's always smart play.

See, this is because you don't understand the system apparently at all. It's like Dusk said - you need to understand and use the Option Select; It generally beats throws until you start doing TRM setups. Many of which will lose to a jab or some other defensive choice because they involve delaying your throw slightly to trigger a TRM on someone who is using the option select.

And how do you mean bitching about the long tech window? I have multiple ideas right now and not quite sure what you're getting at.

There was a TON of "Oh, BB throws SUCK! Throws in GG were TWO FRAMES!" back in the day. Eventually people started figuring things out and quieted down on that.

Depth?

Yes. As in "you may not want to green burst twice in the same round even if you can." And also "Some characters are more dangerous to your primers than others". Depth. Variety. Options. Leads to people considering other options, rather than just "Save both your bursts for the last round and use them both to break out of combos". It's a bit too early to say how the P4A burst system is shaking out, but right now, I'm seeing a whole lot of defensive bursts and not much of the other kinds in what I've watched so far.

I would generally agree that the primer system did have some intricacy to it that when ideally approached, was pretty solid. But practically, no. Especially with how some characters attack loops and miscellaneous stuff knocked down primers like dominoes.

So the system is bad because some characters are better at exploiting it that others? Really? That's your issue with guard primers? Do you also have issues with throws because some characters have larger throw ranges than others? Do you have issues with invulnerable reversals because some characters don't have one without meter?

Persona's is certainly less intricate I guess, but I would place more money in the "Synthesized and better" field personally.

Now I just don't know what you're trying to say. "Synthesized and better"?

Dusk:

What are the hard knockdowns in P4A? Sweeps definitely aren't "hard" by any definition of the term that I know.

[Rhiya]

You can't tech roll = HKD, pretty much

Sure, you can delay your tech, but it's delayed by a set amount of frames if you don't immediately tech, instead the "tech whenever you want" nonsense BB has. Not teching is also punishable without much change to okizeme plans, unlike BB, where you need to go out of your way to punish tech rolls/not teching a lot of the time, or delay tech wrecks your oki

[AeternumSomnium]

Heh. Why don't you just take the head start and run with it?

OOooooo sassy

So the system is bad because some characters are better at exploiting it that others? Really? That's your issue with guard primers? Do you also have issues with throws because some characters have larger throw ranges than others? Do you have issues with invulnerable reversals because some characters don't have one without meter?

When I play a fighting game, and I have to be on the defensive with someone, it damn well pisses me off when I'm fighting and their just like, "Hey lol, I'm going to break down your defense like it's nothing - oh btw you have less guard primers than others - or - "Oh don't forget, I have more primers than you and your attacks just don't cut it like mine do! Have fun breaking down my defense, oh wait--I'll be breaking yours!!!" So they can exploit it, alright. Still a pile of shit that some can more than others, it's one thing to have a powerful offense, but defense is pretty damn well important wouldn't you agree?

People usually counter this with, "Well, get better."

To get better you need to practice and fight right? So what fun is it when an opponent breaks your defense like it's nothing? Or on that note, when you're trying to 'get better' and your opponent clearly has more experience than you and you NEED to be much more defensive? You just took all those hits and primer deteriorations like it was nothing huh? You just lol'd and said, "Well, this is fair. . ."

Yeah nah I doubt that.

Don't you stand there and try to make it sound like everyone was equal and the inequalities were justified with, "It gives it depth!" No, it's a flawed system imo--and not just a little bit. It could be made better, (more duration on your primers and their stability, more equal "Exploiting" for characters instead of a select few) Seeings as I'm not the only one spouting this nonsense, I feel that there is at least some grounds to what I am saying.

I've already addressed throws lol. And as for that last part, didn't bitch about it, so no.

[zyphur]

I think you're right to assume it has popularity because of it's title. In fact I'm certain that it owes a large chunk of its immediate fame to the Persona title. HOWEVER, the game itself offers more than just a nostalgia trip. While I'll admit that I don't much care for Labrys or the story, (Especially when they cliffhang-ered it like fucking BB) the gameplay is pretty fun.

Being a Blazblue player for so long now, going to this game was a very strange and different experience. I like Blazblue, hell, I like the stupidly convoluted story and all the generic and bizarre characters. But going from BB to this game was, a bit of an eye-opener. I realized that I had been really getting my hand held for combos and attack executions--while also getting raped with stupid systems like the dreaded throw-reject system and the stupid primer nonsense.

I still love BB, and plan on Getting Chronophantasm when it comes out, but alas, I will have a new perspective on it. Hell with Persona I feel like I'm getting challenged a whole lot more--and not just by online players and tier systems either (Which is what BB became for me); the game itself offers me a refreshing and new experience.

Obviously there's a lot of opinion in there, but lets' be honest, the general consensus is the fighting in Persona is much more intense in terms of executions and timing--and because of that, I feel that it has a bit of a superiority to BB.

To each their own though.

Are you crazy? You claim persona 4 has HARDER execution than blazblue? You must have played Arakune or some other piss easy character. That or your combos consisted of 3 hits. Makoto had really hard combos, noels bounce combos were hard, hazama, I mean really, be more fanboi right now. P4a is a great game don't get me wrong. but to PRETEND for even a second that the dumbed down version of gg, and the easiest combo system they've ever had is harder than BB than your a joke. I can do 7k with akihiko blind folded. I can learn any combo in p4a with in an hour easy. Go play some guilty gear and go learn how hard a real combo is.

[AeternumSomnium]

Are you crazy? You claim persona 4 has HARDER execution than blazblue? You must have played Arakune or some other piss easy character. That or your combos consisted of 3 hits. Makoto had really hard combos, noels bounce combos were hard, hazama, I mean really, be more fanboi right now. P4a is a great game don't get me wrong. but to PRETEND for even a second that the dumbed down version of gg, and the easiest combo system they've ever had is harder than BB than your a joke. I can do 7k with akihiko blind folded. I can learn any combo in p4a with in an hour easy. Go play some guilty gear and go learn how hard a real combo is.

Okay, I admit there is some fanboi-ism in there and for that I apologize. For the record, Hazama was the first character I learned. His 9th challenge took me about 4 and a half hours to do--I will be the first to admit that he was bloody well hard to learn. I've never played Makoto and I HATE noel so I can't speak for them. The point I was trying to make was for me personally, I'm having a hard time getting the timing down. I've read more than once of people complaining about the timing and executions feeling strange and off (see my thread) so that's where that came from. Before you continue your assault, please be aware, I do know the how difficult BB is lol.

[Circuitous]

P4 execution is closer to GG than BB, I'd say. If you think P4 is the easiest combo system they've ever done then Akihiko must be really, really braindead.

BlazBlue combos are complicated but they're also really lenient with regards to input and time. P4 and GG have stricter timing all around (Fatal combos in P4 being an exception).

Of course it also varies from character to character. Kanji's combos are actually pretty difficult, while Potemkin's are really, really easy. Millia's combos are hard while Akihiko's just aren't. BlazBlue has easy combos and hard combos as well, but its overall design made combos easier than they would've been in a different game.

[Bibiquadium]

The amount of fanboyism in this thread is outmatching, it's not a matter of game worth but more which one do you enjoy the most. I personally can't stand P4A for the life of me but I won't go bash every game out there's saying BB is the best game in the world and the mechanics are superior to everything else. So yeah, play whatever you like and put that game's worth mindset aside.

[Circuitous]

Some people just wanna argue. Some legitimately wanna be convinced. Ya never know.

[AeternumSomnium]

Keeping the fanboisim to a low is something I'll have to work on

Also--I love your avatar circuitous, although I don't share your hate of Chie

[Airk]

When I play a fighting game, and I have to be on the defensive with someone, it damn well pisses me off when I'm fighting and their just like, "Hey lol, I'm going to break down your defense like it's nothing - oh btw you have less guard primers than others - or - "Oh don't forget, I have more primers than you and your attacks just don't cut it like mine do! Have fun breaking down my defense, oh wait--I'll be breaking yours!!!" So they can exploit it, alright. Still a pile of shit that some can more than others, it's one thing to have a powerful offense, but defense is pretty damn well important wouldn't you agree?

Yes, but not in the way you want me to agree. Do you feel this way when Tager command throws you for 50% of your health? Why are you letting them do that? It's much easier for him to do that than it is for anyone to break your guard. Primers don't just magically disappear. And even if you're down to one you still have options. I also find it sortof hilarious that someone playing Valk, with his "Hey look, this move is an overhead, plus on block AND breaks a primer, oh and did we mention it's an awesome starter?" 6C is complaining about this. Do you also complain that you don't have a DP?

To get better you need to practice and fight right? So what fun is it when an opponent breaks your defense like it's nothing? Or on that note, when you're trying to 'get better' and your opponent clearly has more experience than you and you NEED to be much more defensive? You just took all those hits and primer deteriorations like it was nothing huh? You just lol'd and said, "Well, this is fair. . ."

I sense great salt in you. Seriously. I don't think either of us should be pretending this is some sort of objective evaluation of the system.

Don't you stand there and try to make it sound like everyone was equal and the inequalities were justified with, "It gives it depth!" No, it's a flawed system imo--and not just a little bit. It could be made better, (more duration on your primers and their stability, more equal "Exploiting" for characters instead of a select few) Seeings as I'm not the only one spouting this nonsense, I feel that there is at least some grounds to what I am saying.

No, sorry, actually, I AM going to say that the game is balanced with primers in mind. You have yet to provide any reasoning behind why it is flawed beyond "It sucks when I get guard broken" even though getting guard broken requires you to either burst (in which case you are experiencing a consequence for getting out of that combo) or to block a primer breaking move -4- times in relatively short order, AND to forget to use barrier to prevent it. How often do guard breaks happen in high level play? Not very often, and usually when they do, they are clearly the result of a mistake on the defender's part. Far more often, you see someone losing because of the actions they took to avoid being guard broken. Guard breaks do require you to play in an intelligent fashion to avoid them, such that you work to avoid situations in which you might have to block primer breaking moves. You might have to spend some meter on a counter assault. You might have to risk a backdash where you might not otherwise. This is, IMHO, superior to "I can defend forever as long as I can block overheads and tech throws." Are guard primers necessarily the -best- way to implement that? No, but they're an interesting system that adds some depth and strategy to the game by adding consequences to actions.

Ugh. Sorry. I keep derailing P4 threads with this crap. =/ In my defense, this WAS pretty much set up as a comparison thread, and I'm sucker for systems discussion.

[AeternumSomnium]

Yes, but not in the way you want me to agree. Do you feel this way when Tager command throws you for 50% of your health? Why are you letting them do that? It's much easier for him to do that than it is for anyone to break your guard. Primers don't just magically disappear. And even if you're down to one you still have options. I also find it sortof hilarious that someone playing Valk, with his "Hey look, this move is an overhead, plus on block AND breaks a primer, oh and did we mention it's an awesome starter?" 6C is complaining about this. Do you also complain that you don't have a DP?

I won't argue that, Valk's 6C is ridiculously powerful.

I sense great salt in you. Seriously. I don't think either of us should be pretending this is some sort of objective evaluation of the system.

No, sorry, actually, I AM going to say that the game is balanced with primers in mind. You have yet to provide any reasoning behind why it is flawed beyond "It sucks when I get guard broken" even though getting guard broken requires you to either burst (in which case you are experiencing a consequence for getting out of that combo) or to block a primer breaking move -4- times in relatively short order, AND to forget to use barrier to prevent it. How often do guard breaks happen in high level play? Not very often, and usually when they do, they are clearly the result of a mistake on the defender's part. Far more often, you see someone losing because of the actions they took to avoid being guard broken. Guard breaks do require you to play in an intelligent fashion to avoid them, such that you work to avoid situations in which you might have to block primer breaking moves. You might have to spend some meter on a counter assault. You might have to risk a backdash where you might not otherwise. This is, IMHO, superior to "I can defend forever as long as I can block overheads and tech throws." Are guard primers necessarily the -best- way to implement that? No, but they're an interesting system that adds some depth and strategy to the game by adding consequences to actions.

I didn't say it wasn't interesting, I said it was flawed. Not that I expected it to be perfect, after all I've yet to see any system that is perfect at all. Let's not forget though, if you're fighting someone who has truly mastered their attack-barrage technique, there is no "Well I'll just use this or this to save myself," I've seen battles online where poor bastards just get attacked and attacked and attacked until either their guard breaks or they try to escape and get SEVERELY punished. Those are the situations where the guard primer--and guard breaking system are flawed in my opinion, if you can't find an opening than you're screwed. THAT's my reasoning.

Look, I won't try to pretend I'm some high level player. I'm nothin special, but it sucks that for the higher percentage of players, they just bite it when they can't get out of an attack chain.

[Airk]

I didn't say it wasn't interesting, I said it was flawed. Not that I expected it to be perfect, after all I've yet to see any system that is perfect at all. Let's not forget though, if you're fighting someone who has truly mastered their attack-barrage technique, there is no "Well I'll just use this or this to save myself," I've seen battles online where poor bastards just get attacked and attacked and attacked until either their guard breaks or they try to escape and get SEVERELY punished.

But that's really just lack of knowledge and skill. How is this different from "they just get attacked and attacked until an overhead hits them"?

Those are the situations where the guard primer--and guard breaking system are flawed in my opinion, if you can't find an opening than you're screwed. THAT's my reasoning.

There are SO MANY situations in fighting games where "if you can't X, you're screwed" that I don't really feel that an argument at such a high level of generality has any merit. If you can give specific examples of specific ways the guard primer system is flawed, then I'm entirely willing to listen, but "I saw some dude online get blown up because he couldn't figure out how to get out of an attack string that contained 6 primer breaking moves." is just an argument on the scale of "I saw Tager kill some dude in TWO THROWS! How is that fair!?!"

Look, I won't try to pretend I'm some high level player. I'm nothin special, but it sucks that for the higher percentage of players, they just bite it when they can't get out of an attack chain.

Just... what attack chains do you feel generate these circumstances? Almost every primer breaking move in the game is either negative on block or has substantial startup. No character is capable of putting together anything that resembles a tight attack string that breaks more than maybe 2 primers without significant expenditure of resources - usually in the form of rapid cancels.

Also, I submit that if these players can't figure out how to get out of these attack chains, they're going to eventually get hit by an overhead anyway. If they take so long to figure out how to get out of that string, they are already doomed, because they're incapable of turning the match around and are clearly outclassed. Learning how to avoid guard breaks is a skill in the game, the same way learning to block overheads and how to tech throws is a skill. So far, your only argument against this system has been "well, it's hard and not much fun for a newbie to get hit by!". It's hard to avoid Tager's frame traps. It's hard to block Hazama's 6A overhead. It's hard to react to Tsubaki's unblockable. It's hard to react to Bang's bumper mixups. And none of those things are fun to get hit by. Do you believe that all of those are flawed systems as well?

Your argument here seems to be primarily emotional, which isn't a good way to evaluate game systems.

[Kuuhaku]

Every time you tell someone to use OS tech in America, though, they just go "lol I can react to green throws so I don't need to" even though they're about as fast as Rachel's instant overheads, which are called "instant" for a reason

Nope. Not even close. Rachel j.A is 12 frames. Throw is 20 (they have 7f start up). And even though people say that, a ton of people still guess. Even JP players get thrown easily if someone uses throw in an awkward situation. And TRM is very strong once you condition someone to act a certain way towards your mix ups.

When under stress, people panic and don't think clearly, or they read too much into the situation and get caught off guard. If all it took was basic reaction time to always avoid throws, then no one would ever get hit by something as slow as 28f Rachel 4B.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Bohemian Polka

[AeternumSomnium]

But that's really just lack of knowledge and skill. How is this different from "they just get attacked and attacked until an overhead hits them"?

There are SO MANY situations in fighting games where "if you can't X, you're screwed" that I don't really feel that an argument at such a high level of generality has any merit. If you can give specific examples of specific ways the guard primer system is flawed, then I'm entirely willing to listen, but "I saw some dude online get blown up because he couldn't figure out how to get out of an attack string that contained 6 primer breaking moves." is just an argument on the scale of "I saw Tager kill some dude in TWO THROWS! How is that fair!?!"

But that is pretty lame though, I mean come on heh, would YOU want to be beaten by a Tager who simply threw you twice to win? I certainly wouldn't, I wouldn't say that's the same as getting combo barraged for a minute straight.

Just... what attack chains do you feel generate these circumstances? Almost every primer breaking move in the game is either negative on block or has substantial startup. No character is capable of putting together anything that resembles a tight attack string that breaks more than maybe 2 primers without significant expenditure of resources - usually in the form of rapid cancels.

Also, I submit that if these players can't figure out how to get out of these attack chains, they're going to eventually get hit by an overhead anyway. If they take so long to figure out how to get out of that string, they are already doomed, because they're incapable of turning the match around and are clearly outclassed. Learning how to avoid guard breaks is a skill in the game, the same way learning to block overheads and how to tech throws is a skill. So far, your only argument against this system has been "well, it's hard and not much fun for a newbie to get hit by!". It's hard to avoid Tager's frame traps. It's hard to block Hazama's 6A overhead. It's hard to react to Tsubaki's unblockable. It's hard to react to Bang's bumper mixups. And none of those things are fun to get hit by. Do you believe that all of those are flawed systems as well?

Again, I haven't complained about them, so why would I believe they're flawed too? You kinda just keep on making ungrounded tangents lol.

But I can concede here, I mean hell I don't know anywhere near as much of the technical stuff as half of the people here, you seem to have me topped. It just seemed that Noels (Solid ones), Ragnas, Jins, and Bangs even break my guards all day erryday. I've already admitted that's lack of skill mainly though, I mean hell my PSR only ever made it to almost 356, (Although Persona did stop that train. . .) I don't know, maybe the usual match-ups are just Gods and I'm unfortunate. Salty? Yeah probs. You seem mostly right I suppose. I was wrong you were right etc. etc.