Airk Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 But that is pretty lame though, I mean come on heh, would YOU want to be beaten by a Tager who simply threw you twice to win? I certainly wouldn't, I wouldn't say that's the same as getting combo barraged for a minute straight. But it's 100% possible for Tager to do JUST that. Though usually he kills you in ONE throw and a few other random hits beforehand. My example exists. Your "one minute combo barrage that you can't escape" doesn't. Again, I haven't complained about them, so why would I believe they're flawed too? You kinda just keep on making ungrounded tangents lol. They're not tangents. They're comparisons. Essentially, they are other game mechanics to which you could apply your argument, exactly, word for word, and have it be just as (in)valid. You seem mostly right I suppose. I was wrong you were right etc. etc. Well, sorry have made it such an unpleasant process.
mAc Chaos Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Getting guard broken means you're letting them get away with too much on offense. It means you need to start poking out sooner. Throws are way more obvious than instant overheads. Everything stops while two giant exclamation points show up. Edited August 16, 2012 by mAc Chaos
Shazam Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 So, I just don't like TRM because it feels clunky and overthought for a throw system. Teching throws is fine, but I think that punishing people for making the right guess is dumb. Although I did see your point that they shouldn't be guessing, but still, having to work a somewhat complex OS into your basic defense to me is a problem... It also doesn't translate very well for pad players, I for one never even attempted any OS until I switched to stick. This could be my own shortcoming but I'm sure some other pad players feel the same. Tick throws are really strong in BB but I'd rather just keep it simple and Persona does that perfectly IMO, still allows for tick throws but no TRM. On primers, well, I'm not sure how I would do it, but Tager having SO MANY of them is just dumb. Then characters like Hazama and Valkenhayn who need to have a strong defense get jewed over with only 4. I understand that Tager will have to inevitably block more than these guys by design but having 3 times the primers is practically a huge joke. As a low primer character you basically have to not use your barrier against someone like Noel who will absolutely go for those guard crushes especially after you green burst. Save it for when you need it. I think it's much better than Libra ever was but as it is it feels dated. On the plus side, usually when you see a guard crush happen in pro play, the first thing you do is look at his barrier meter and notice that it was almost full. It can lead to interesting situations but overall it feels like we haven't gotten any real upgrades to the primer system since CT > CS. I don't like how green bursts take half of your primers either.
mAc Chaos Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 But, you're not getting punished for making the right guess. You're making the wrong guess. :P
Chazmobile Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 So, I just don't like TRM because it feels clunky and overthought for a throw system. Teching throws is fine, but I think that punishing people for making the right guess is dumb. Tick throws are really strong in BB but I'd rather just keep it simple and Persona does that perfectly IMO, still allows for tick throws but no TRM. Like Mac said, you are getting punished for making the wrong guess, you 'guessed' they were going to throw you rather than react to the huge green exclamation mark and large hitstop and got punished for hitting throw in anticipation. TRM is a mix-up that adds an extra level of depth to the game and helps characters with otherwise weak mix-up to still have a chance to open you up. Tick throws are better in Persona due to the less obvious indicators. On primers, well, I'm not sure how I would do it, but Tager having SO MANY of them is just dumb. Then characters like Hazama and Valkenhayn who need to have a strong defense get jewed over with only 4. I understand that Tager will have to inevitably block more than these guys by design but having 3 times the primers is practically a huge joke. As a low primer character you basically have to not use your barrier against someone like Noel who will absolutely go for those guard crushes especially after you green burst. Save it for when you need it. I don't like how green bursts take half of your primers either. The whole point of characters like Valkenhayn having low primers and weak defense is that they have such an overwhelmingly strong offense that they need this weak defense to 'balance' them. Couple this with Hazama and Valkenhayn's great movement options and normals and there is less chance of them actually getting put into blockstun by the opponent, again the low guard primers making them easier to guard crush 'balances' this. On the other hand, poor old Tager, on top of having the largest hitbox in the game, has limited movement options and so ends up having to block a lot especially against zoners. As such, it makes sense that he has a lot of guard primers to compensate. Green bursts taking half your primers is a good thing I think, it forces you to think about whether or not you are going to use it early to regain momentum but have limited primers, or save it for later to stop the last combo from killing you. The fact that only green bursts take them also means that gold bursts can be used fairly risk-free to regain momentum and get some free damage.
Shazam Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 That's all pretty agreeable to be honest. I think Tager should only have 8 or 9 primers though, it's almost impossible to actually go for a guard crush against Tager who can just block and block. The worst thing about Tager is that he's too easy to lame out by, well, the exact characters I mentioned, and more. This is more about bad character design than TRM or Primers. He can still pull the wins but it's and more or less through raw yomi. Doesn't help when your opponent gets 1 hit on you and then runs away the whole match. It's so easy to lose just because you picked Tager. Onto gold bursts, they are pretty insane. I guess how good they are is something else to make you reconsider using your bursts, but the fact that they can only be punished if they somehow whiff is bad design. I think the only character who can read and punish gold burst is Hakumen with his drive or even getting lucky and cutting one. Another problem with bursts is no burst meter or regain. They definitely want you to -think- before you burst instead of doing it at the start of the match like GG. I'm hoping we get end up with a burst meter in the new BB personally.
Rhiya Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 Throws are way more obvious than instant overheads. Everything stops while two giant exclamation points show up. The startup of a throw is way less obvious than the startup of a jump. Yet, the throw is easier to react to? What you think is "reactable" about throws are the cues that make you think someone will throw, like walking forward a bit, your opponent's impatience, etc. The throw itself is seven frames; you can't see it. The throw break window, with the exclamation points, is 13f. Unless you're saying you can see 7f throws then react in the 13 frames, you're not making a good case. Both the 7f startup and 13f break window are well under what's reactable (the strictest definition I've seen for reactable is 15f or slower, and it falls below that).
Shazam Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 I was just thinking, if theres a 20 frame break window then why am I rarely teching throws? The startup to throws isn't really much of a visual cue so yeah, it's much more about reading patterns and watching your foe. While TRM is indeed another form of mixup, it just makes more sense to throw break when both players go for throw. It's a mindgame and it's great for conditioning, but if characters have such weak mixup that they have to rely on TRM to get an opening then maybe they should have better mixup options. I only really see Jin as someone who would 'need' it because of how strong his throw game is and lack of solid mixup otherwise.
STenSatsu Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 First off, I like Blazblue and will be getting Chrono Phantasm when it comes to consoles. What I want to know is, is this game really worth it? In my opinion, this game is only popular because it has the Persona label on it. I watched the gameplay and it looks lacking. However, even though I don't like it, everyone and their mom seems to be praising this game. The dumbest thing is, even people who hate BlazBlue says this game is awesome... I don't get it. Can someone explain to me why this game is so good and if I should buy it? In case you are actually reading the thread I'll try to respond. The game is not JUST the Persona label. It is a fine stand alone fighting game. The name may certainly be helping its popularity, but if that's what it takes to get people to try a good airdasher then so be it imo. People who dislike Blazblue are picking P4A up for a few reasons. They may be more into the characters from playing persona games. P4A gets rid of a lot of innovations many people disliked about BB such as the teching system, throw system, and guard primers. P4 also makes it easier to punish people for bad use of jumps thanks to no barrier and jumping having more frames where you can't block. The gameplay speed of P4 is also a good bit faster than BB thanks to hitstop and movement speed. P4 is a great entry game as well due to things like a basic auto-combo and 2 button reversals. They let people unfamiliar with airdasher fundamentals get used to them easier and focus more on decision making rather than execution. Personally, I think BB has more depth to it, but P4A is a solid fighter that has all we've come to expect from ASW along with some nice innovations (looking at you 'hold a button to tech') and a system that makes it great for players new to fighters/airdashers. It has decent balance, good netplay, a good amount of gameplay depth, and a mass amount of single player options.
Fluck Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 It's definitely possible to tech throws on reaction, but you need to have decent eyes to see the throw startup. That's all.
Vulcan422 Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Can someone explain to me why this game is so good and if I should buy it? -Very user-friendly controls and system mechanics -Gameplay is faster and smoother than BlazBlue Extend -Newer and more interesting than BlazBlue Extend -Better than BlazBlue Extend -Fuck BlazBlue Extend BUY IT BUY IT BUY IT BUY IT BUY IT Seriously, though, the game is new, easy to get into, and it feels different from other ASW fighters. To quote someone else, it's like if KOF, GG, and BB had a threesome and this was the baby.
Circuitous Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 So hey let's stop bickering like children about BlazBlue system mechanics in a thread ostensibly created to justify the purchase of Persona 4 Arena, yeah?
Lord Pwnge18 Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 I'm just gonna throw this out there... "Hey, is P4A worth buying?" "I think so, but others may disagree. Regardless of what we think, you can always just return the game if you didn't enjoy it." /thread
Recommended Posts