TPPR10 Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 -The Power of Order stuff. Just a small argument, but Jubei pretty much stated that Power of Order is neither good nor evil. I would actually call Power of Order as Power of Balance: If either powers of good or powers of evil grows to be way stronger than the other, the Power of Order is ment to balance those odds. Like, let's us argue that N.O.L. is actually good. Jin would probally still be destined to bring it down if it grew too powerful because that's how Power of Order works.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 Well, don't forget how vicious and bloodthirsty he is when dealing with opponents. Pretty much all you have to do is look at him wrong and he'll kill you. That was mostly because of Yukikanesa too. Without it, he's pretty mellow, just cold and distant, and bit more of a sociopath
kylehyde Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 I would argue that Jin and Hakumen are two completely different characters. So what ever good Hakumen does should not be counted as good for Jin. Most of the shit Jin does irritates Hakumen. I really haven't seen much character development from Jin at all. I don't know what's going to happen in CP, but in the first two games he hardly changed. He was still crazy and didn't hesitate to kill anyone who got in his way. In my opinion he only cares about Tsubaki, Ragna, and Makoto. I can't think of anyone else he gives two craps about. Ragna on the other hand has shown that he has a soft spot for Noel, Taokaka, Rachel, Jubei, Nu (sort of), and at the very least he seems neutral to Kokonoe after she fixed his arm. Plus, I wouldn't say he hates Jin all that much anymore.
NovaFortuna Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 (edited) rThis came to my attention recently, but how many of you guys think the story has kind of built Jin more up as the hero than Ragna? I mean Ragna more or less stays the same from CT till now, but Jin goes from fighting mostly for himself and not giving a shit about the world to fighting for the world and the people he cares about. It's just something I caught on. WARNING - LONG ASS POST AHEAD: It's mostly an in universe thing and nothing else. Ragna suffers from bad reputation but he has a ton of heroic and downright awesome moments that show him in a better light than his brother. Jin on the other hand is well known and respected by other soldiers but what players see is a selfish bastard who only cares for his own desires, at least until CS rolled along but only got a bit better as shown in CP. If you think about it most of Jin's achievements turned out to be fakes or empty, while his crowning one the Ikaruga war, was just a setup by the NOL. While Ragna's achievements may seem minimal, they are at least meaningful. I also think their development as characters work in a different way. I can see Ragna not needing to shape up much more now because life already put a toll on him and made him the person he is right now. Jin on the other hand seems to have been pushed to the rock bottom of human misery by mind screws, manipulation and etc. And now must play his role, but unlike Ragna who has the mindset for it, he has to get his, given that the Hakumen paradox didn't occur and he is a different individual that has to grow on his own and not rely and a scripted event to fix him up. I really haven't seen much character development from Jin at all. I don't know what's going to happen in CP, but in the first two games he hardly changed. He was still crazy and didn't hesitate to kill anyone who got in his way. In my opinion he only cares about Tsubaki, Ragna, and Makoto. I can't think of anyone else he gives two craps about. IMO, that' because Jin is a poorly handled character. The concept he has as rival, false hero and psycho is pretty good, but the way it has been pulled in the games is (in my opinion) badly done. The development and growth is there, or at least the plan to make it is there, but the way it has been shown it's rushed at moments and wasted in others. Doesn't help his rivalry with Ragna is actually pretty meaningless aside some criptic prophecies, Ragna sees him as a nuisance, their encounter are always near the climax where Jin is overshadowed by bigger threats, their difference in power is too big and other events pretty much take way any chance of actually dwelling on their relationship. And all of this really hurts given that for two games Jin's character revolved around Ragna. Edited April 5, 2013 by NovaFortuna
harmless kitten Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 What was Ragna's? Mostly has to do with Noel, the Murakumo Units, and Terumi. I think Ragna was on the fence about Noel before CS's plot really started up. She looks just like Saya, and that's a big warning flag for being a Murakumo Unit, but the Azure Grimoire has no reaction to her and she's not crazy so he can't be sure. She still really unsettles him, and well--Ragna doesn't warm up to people easily. So he tells her to gtfo without giving her any explanations. I truly think that if Ragna hadn't really met Noel beforehand, he would've just killed Mu in the Cauldron instead of trying to reverse her tempering. Lambda-Nu's sacrifice probably also had an effect on softening his heart to Murakumo Units. When he speaks to Nu in CT, he refuses to even acknowledge her as human. He says he's here to destroy her--not kill, because killing is for people. Judging by Nu's comments about the times they met previously, he really flipped out on her unfinished bodies too. Basically, before CS Ragna thinks that all Murakumo Units should be destroyed. By the end of it, he doesn't hold on so strongly to this viewpoint. Like I said, it's mostly minor. Jin's character development is much more obvious. I think that he also becomes a little calmer by CP, but that probably had to do with giving Terumi a well-deserved beating. I know I would be much calmer after that! @TPPR10: The power of order is meant to counter anomalies like Ragna, not things out of balance like the NOL.
Wild Candy Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 Mostly has to do with Noel, the Murakumo Units, and Terumi. I think Ragna was on the fence about Noel before CS's plot really started up. She looks just like Saya, and that's a big warning flag for being a Murakumo Unit, but the Azure Grimoire has no reaction to her and she's not crazy so he can't be sure. She still really unsettles him, and well--Ragna doesn't warm up to people easily. So he tells her to gtfo without giving her any explanations. I truly think that if Ragna hadn't really met Noel beforehand, he would've just killed Mu in the Cauldron instead of trying to reverse her tempering. Lambda-Nu's sacrifice probably also had an effect on softening his heart to Murakumo Units. When he speaks to Nu in CT, he refuses to even acknowledge her as human. He says he's here to destroy her--not kill, because killing is for people. Judging by Nu's comments about the times they met previously, he really flipped out on her unfinished bodies too. Basically, before CS Ragna thinks that all Murakumo Units should be destroyed. By the end of it, he doesn't hold on so strongly to this viewpoint. Like I said, it's mostly minor. Jin's character development is much more obvious. I think that he also becomes a little calmer by CP, but that probably had to do with giving Terumi a well-deserved beating. I know I would be much calmer after that! @TPPR10: The power of order is meant to counter anomalies like Ragna, not things out of balance like the NOL. The fact that Noel and Nu saved Ragna's life probably helped how he felt about Murakumo's. But hey, I would be really shaken to if I met a stranger who looked just like my sister whom I thought was dead. That, and deep down, Ragna is a very kind person, he didn't really become a cold bad ass until Terumi ruined his life. It's even implied that he holds back against Jin so he doesn't kill his brother.
mAc Chaos Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 Something about Relius I wanted to bring up. In that alternate Makoto timeline, the way Relius talks, it's as if his knowledge carries on between time loops or something. Does anyone know what's going on with that? He says things like "this knowledge will be useful for the next iteration."
Volt Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 Something about Relius I wanted to bring up. In that alternate Makoto timeline, the way Relius talks, it's as if his knowledge carries on between time loops or something. Does anyone know what's going on with that? He says things like "this knowledge will be useful for the next iteration." I guess he is like an observer. Because only Rachel or Hazama said stuff about other timeloops and etc. It's probably because he was flung into the boundary or something like that.
mAc Chaos Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 Also Hazama nearly shits himself when Makoto mentions Noel in that timeline as if it would ruin everything. But why would that be when Hazama went so far out of his way to have Noel become Mu in the timeline she was actually around.
00Bubbles00 Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 Turning Noel into Mu (a puppet) was perhaps Hazama's way of nullifying her interference. It was working until Ragna works his charm. I'm surprised Hazama didn't observe that possibility. Or maybe he did observe it and it just didn't get written into the story yet since Hazama is waiting for the final troll ending to reveal his plan. >.>
mAc Chaos Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 I thought he needed Noel all along so he wouldn't just be a ghost. And also so he could have her kill Amaterasu.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 He needed Noel so he could destroy Amaterasu while she's Mu, as well as take control of Takemagahara. Ragna foiled plan A, but at that point Hazama didn't need Noel anymore because plan B worked out.
TPPR10 Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 I think it might be a time paradox event. Remember, Mu died in WoF timeline, meaning Noel wouldn't exist. Hazama might had some other plans during that timeline what didn't involve Noel (or maybe he was trying to create Mu again, who knows). The fact that Makoto knows existence of Noel might create some sort of paradox what would cause stuff go down.
raziel12 Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 (edited) perdictions that might have happen well i hope that it wont happen all we know is noel and ragna are the keys to opening the door to amatrasu *ragna dies causing awaking of amatarasu * noel opens the door *izayoi kills rachel causing her soul to follow ragna's * unknown wat happens between ragna and rachel here (hopefully he meets bloodedge or find out some truth to know wat to do i know wishfull thinking lol) *saya and hazama confronts amatarasu *amane will do some kind of dance calling bak ragna and rachel souls *ragna will fight saya and noel will fight hazama (hopefull nu will come to her sense and join the fight) *rachel will takes care of takamagahara *ragna is losing to saya cause of the saya dimensional interference *rachel takes control or destroyes takamagahara * ragna smile and use his blazblue to fight saya but i doubt this will happen but who knows this game story got soo many twist who know wat the hell might happen lol ok let me stop damn the game need to hurry up and come out Edited April 6, 2013 by raziel12
kylehyde Posted April 6, 2013 Posted April 6, 2013 perdictions that might have happen well i hope that it wont happen all we know is noel and ragna are the keys to opening the door to amatrasu *ragna dies causing awaking of amatarasu * noel opens the door *izayoi kills rachel causing her soul to follow ragna's * unknown wat happens between ragna and rachel here (hopefully he meets bloodedge or find out some truth to know wat to do i know wishfull thinking lol) *saya and hazama confronts amatarasu *amane will do some kind of dance calling bak ragna and rachel souls *ragna will fight saya and noel will fight hazama (hopefull nu will come to her sense and join the fight) *rachel will takes care of takamagahara *ragna is losing to saya cause of the saya dimensional interference *rachel takes control or destroyes takamagahara * ragna smile and use his blazblue to fight saya I would be happy with all of this.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 7, 2013 Posted April 7, 2013 Interesting theory that was brought to my attention, but do you guys think the story is leading to successors of the Six Heroes? If so, who do you think will be the ones to succeed them? Obviously three of them are going to be Ragna, Jin, and Noel but who else do you think are worthy successors?
Nizzy Posted April 7, 2013 Posted April 7, 2013 Interesting theory that was brought to my attention, but do you guys think the story is leading to successors of the Six Heroes? If so, who do you think will be the ones to succeed them? Obviously three of them are going to be Ragna, Jin, and Noel but who else do you think are worthy successors? Maybe Bang? Can't think of anyone else who would fit well enough.
NovaFortuna Posted April 7, 2013 Posted April 7, 2013 Tsubaki is likely with all her justice and stuff. Bang too given he is the most classically heroic attitude of the cast.
Dawn of Musou Posted April 7, 2013 Posted April 7, 2013 Makoto being a successor to the Six Heroes would be pretty awesome. For some reason I can imagine Amane being a successor too since he apparently doesn't age.
kylehyde Posted April 7, 2013 Posted April 7, 2013 Interesting theory that was brought to my attention, but do you guys think the story is leading to successors of the Six Heroes? If so, who do you think will be the ones to succeed them? Obviously three of them are going to be Ragna, Jin, and Noel but who else do you think are worthy successors? If there really was such a thing, Toakaka would definitely be one. She has to be Jubei's successor.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 7, 2013 Posted April 7, 2013 I like to see a theme going given who has the biggest connections: Jubei trained Ragna Hakumen "trained" Jin Hazama used Noel/Mu Kokonoe has Nine's magic prowess. Luna/Sena have Trinity assisting them If there's any interaction among them, I can see Valkenhayn giving Makoto some advice.
Starlight777 Posted April 7, 2013 Posted April 7, 2013 They could do something like have Trinity's spirit pass on and have Luna/Sena act in her place.
kylehyde Posted April 8, 2013 Posted April 8, 2013 It's weird but I can't see Sena or Luna taking up the mantel of "Hero".
Chaoschao222 Posted April 8, 2013 Posted April 8, 2013 It's weird but I can't see Sena or Luna taking up the mantel of "Hero". Can you see Terumi taking up that mantel?
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