SolxBaiken Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Everyone so quick to judge the sins of others while we ignore the fact Ragna has committed mass slaughter before .v.
zeth07 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Holy crap, I knew that Azrael did something to Rachel since I saw his translated arcade mode play-through but I didn't know that he might have acquired vampire powers while he was at it. That was just pure speculation on my part, nothing more. Like I mentioned, everyone except Ragna kept saying stuff like "how could a mere human be this powerful". So if something happened between him and Rachel, maybe there was some weird "power absorbing" thing, which could also explain the whole thing about him "eating" his opponents > thus explaining why he's so powerful. Again, just my own speculation.
psycofang2 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Everyone so quick to judge the sins of others while we ignore the fact Ragna has committed mass slaughter before .v. especially considering ragnas not trying to save the world but hes out for revenge. jin and a think a few others arentr quite innocent either. if you look at it subjectively the main character is evil as well. That was just pure speculation on my part, nothing more. Like I mentioned, everyone except Ragna kept saying stuff like "how could a mere human be this powerful". So if something happened between him and Rachel, maybe there was some weird "power absorbing" thing, which could also explain the whole thing about him "eating" his opponents > thus explaining why he's so powerful. Again, just my own speculation. i dunno i think the term "eat" the way he uses it seems more towards beating the opponent, killing them. there was another character (i forgot which show it was) that said "thank you for the food" before killing his opponents. this has been used in a few other shows as well. i think its just a thing he says in terms of "i want to taste/feel their power" but energy absorption might be a good possibility of why hes so crazy strong.
Moy_X7 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 I thought the whole "eating" thing was just a metaphor. Then again, that too is just speculation. Oh God, when's console CP?
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Everyone so quick to judge the sins of others while we ignore the fact Ragna has committed mass slaughter before .v. Well...this series has some serious Black & Grey morality going on, so even the heroes aren't afraid to dirty their hands if they have to. In any case, I can't really call Azreal evil because he doesn't see what he's doing as evil. As far as Azreal's concerned, he just wants to beat up strong people because it excites him. In fact, I can see him actively helping the protagonists just so he can fight the likes of Hazama(another one of the Six Heroes). In short, Azreal is neutral at best. He fights for himself and his own amusement and doesn't care who he runs over to do so. Good god I want an U. Ragna vs. U. Azreal match, his arcade ending still gives me goosebumps for how manly it is.
mAc Chaos Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 In any case, I can't really call Azreal evil because he doesn't see what he's doing as evil. Who would you say is evil then?
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Who would you say is evil then? Lemme rephrase that; He's not evil because he hasn't really done anything evil or had evil intentions, he just wants to beat people up. He neither serves the actual villains of the story, but at the same time opposes the protagonists. In short, Azreal is an antagonist, but not a villain.
Dawn of Musou Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Good god I want an U. Ragna vs. U. Azreal match, his arcade ending still gives me goosebumps for how manly it is. This matchup is just way too amazing. But I'm sure that if Azrael can trash Ragna, U Azrael can trash U Ragna. Unless Ragna goes Super Super Plot Armor Idea Engine x4.
psycofang2 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 only character i can say are evil are ragna, jin, hazama POSSIBLY relius, and Azrael to an oddbal extent. Ragna has killed alot of the nol and destroyed the branches causing casualties all for revenge. but at that time who was he really aiming for since he was only hunting down the prime field devices. who was he even blaming? hes pretty chaotic neutral but if you look at what he done as well hes evil with a good personality underneath his actions. jins just insane. Relius is the only one i havent actually seen do anything villian like, i mean alot of his story seems odd whether or not he forced his wofe and daughter to become machines or they volunteered is still a mystery. currently he serves the imperator so id say for now he seems pretty neutral. Azrael is chaotic neutral borderline evil but not villian material hes about as evil as say...akuma.
zeth07 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 In any case, I can't really call Azreal evil because he doesn't see what he's doing as evil. As far as Azreal's concerned, he just wants to beat up strong people because it excites him. In fact, I can see him actively helping the protagonists just so he can fight the likes of Hazama(another one of the Six Heroes). In short, Azreal is neutral at best. He fights for himself and his own amusement and doesn't care who he runs over to do so. There is nothing that points towards this being the case. As I mentioned, he has yet to do anything remotely considered good or anything even neutral since he's only went against "good" guys no "bad" guys. He's even being "controlled" by people above Kokonoe in Sector Seven, and going as far to go against her completely by whatever means necessary. He's no Hisoka. Who has at least helped the protags in some cases since it benefits his objective, but his general goal is exactly what you described. Just using this as a comparative example as to not drag it off-topic since it is a clear example of it. As it stands now, Azrael is an Antagonist through and through. To say otherwise just doesn't make sense to me.
mAc Chaos Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 This matchup is just way too amazing. But I'm sure that if Azrael can trash Ragna, U Azrael can trash U Ragna. Unless Ragna goes Super Super Plot Armor Idea Engine x4. That's not how it worked for Hakumen VS Ragna.
Master Of Chaos Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 .....Have you not seen the Nightmare Fuel known as Makoto's bad ending, nor Relius's interactions with Carl? There's more I can list, but I think the first alone firmly places Relius as evil.
Hecatom Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Everyone so quick to judge the sins of others while we ignore the fact Ragna has committed mass slaughter before .v. Wasn't that retconned?
zeth07 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Azrael is chaotic neutral borderline evil but not villian material hes about as evil as say...akuma. If we're going that route, he's neutral evil.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 There is nothing that points towards this being the case. As I mentioned, he has yet to do anything remotely considered good or anything even neutral since he's only went against "good" guys no "bad" guys. He's even being "controlled" by people above Kokonoe in Sector Seven, and going as far to go against her completely by whatever means necessary. He's no Hisoka. Who has at least helped the protags in some cases since it benefits his objective, but his general goal is exactly what you described. Just using this as a comparative example as to not drag it off-topic since it is a clear example of it. As it stands now, Azrael is an Antagonist through and through. To say otherwise just doesn't make sense to me. I know, that's why I said. He's an antagonist, but not a villain. I only said he's neutral because he doesn't really have any evil intentions. He hasn't done anything good, that is true, but he hasn't done anything evil either. If simply opposing the protagonists made someone evil, then Tager, Hakumen, Rachel, & Litchi are also evil by this logic because they have opposed Ragna in the past too.
zeth07 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 I know, that's why I said. He's an antagonist, but not a villain. I only said he's neutral because he doesn't really have any evil intentions. He hasn't done anything good, that is true, but he hasn't done anything evil either. If simply opposing the protagonists made someone evil, then Tager, Hakumen, Rachel, & Litchi are also evil by this logic because they have opposed Ragna in the past too. He's killed countless people...... People have some really messed up views of Good and Evil apparently lol.
bakahyl Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Well...this series has some serious Black & Grey morality going on, so even the heroes aren't afraid to dirty their hands if they have to. In any case, I can't really call Azreal evil because he doesn't see what he's doing as evil. As far as Azreal's concerned, he just wants to beat up strong people because it excites him. In fact, I can see him actively helping the protagonists just so he can fight the likes of Hazama(another one of the Six Heroes). In short, Azreal is neutral at best. He fights for himself and his own amusement and doesn't care who he runs over to do so. Good god I want an U. Ragna vs. U. Azreal match, his arcade ending still gives me goosebumps for how manly it is. In the Dungeons and Dragons allignment system, it would still make Azreal neutral (although slightly more leaning towards "chaotic neutral", despite having a little "order" characteristics because he is somewhat following sector 7's orders)
mAc Chaos Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Those alignments never make sense half the time anyway. And I was under the impression most of us were talking about just plain evil, not D&D evil. Also even if you were to use it, he'd be neutral evil since he'd still be hurting others, etc. The neutral would fall on the law/chaos axis rather than good/evil.
Dawn of Musou Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 That's not how it worked for Hakumen VS Ragna. Lol true. We don't know how much Azrael was holding himself back with Enchant Dragonuv though. In his arcade, he said "Enchant Dragonuv - Level 2." There could be Level 3 or 4, and if there is, there's no way Ragna's going to win without the plot helping him.
bakahyl Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Those alignments never make sense half the time anyway. And I was under the impression most of us were talking about just plain evil, not D&D evil. Also even if you were to use it, he'd be neutral evil since he'd still be hurting others, etc. The neutral would fall on the law/chaos axis rather than good/evil. Mercenaries and thieves can fall under neutral, despite killing and robbing people. Neutral in D&D stands for self interest/greed etc. and they can work for either good or evil.
NovaFortuna Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) Yes Ragna has commited mass murder too (dunno if it was retconned, but anyways) the difference is we don't really have his motivations clear. Is easy to assume its revenge, but it's not like we have heard a clear explanation from him for his actions and even if it is, he at the very least was pushed to that path. It doesn't excuse the action itself at all, but it's a lot better reason than killing people because you want to "have fun". Besides, Ragna has shown to fight for those he cares about, risk his life for friends or allies and just let live when he isn't picked on for a fight (which the entire cast does) and he is opposing to the biggest monster in the story. Doesn't make him a straight hero, but it does push him to the good side. Edited April 4, 2013 by NovaFortuna
kylehyde Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Ragna has killed alot of the nol and destroyed the branches causing casualties all for revenge. but at that time who was he really aiming for since he was only hunting down the prime field devices. who was he even blaming? hes pretty chaotic neutral but if you look at what he done as well hes evil with a good personality underneath his actions. Really? Ragna is by far, the nicest guy in the entire cast. He's pretty much misunderstood by everyone. And besides, he killed NOL soldiers, people who get paid to lay down their lives. Not to mention their like the evil empire in the game. It's not like he went to some village and started killing innocent civilians.
SolxBaiken Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Well...this series has some serious Black & Grey morality going on, so even the heroes aren't afraid to dirty their hands if they have to. What!? I don't see it like that at all D: It's not a "shades of grey" kind of thing because Ragna doesn't kill the people because he has to, rather because he can, he shows no regard for human life simple due to their association. Ragna is a terrorist, but the negative connotations of his actions are merely glossed over and never brought up because we're led to believe that the NOL has the most straight forward screening process in the world: "Do you have a hidden agenda and/or a complete twat?" "Yes? Welcome to the NOL!" I mean, the general consensus for ruling parties (especially among the younger demographic) is the people hate you, but this is just on a whole different level. I would love to see an NOL officer join the cast; one that's just an ordinary man/woman, because I'd like a less skewed view of their side of things. But this type of character study probably won't fly in the normal tropes of Japanese storytelling. Wasn't that retconned? Even if it was, I'll never forget .v. And on the subject of Azrael; there's no doubt he's an antagonist, that's for sure, but I don't see him as a "villain" more than just a straight up rival [and a much better one] to Ragna. And honestly I'd have it no other way, I'd hate for them to convolute his role any further than what's been established [although it probably will ; -; ] also to everyone crying over Rachel apparently getting smacked around or whatever by Azrael, come on, she deserves it, because Rachel is the biggest twat in the world. But that might just be me since I don't find the idea of being a belittling, pompous, bitch sexual exciting or emotionally engaging. Really? Ragna is by far, the nicest guy in the entire cast. He's pretty much misunderstood by everyone. And besides, he killed NOL soldiers, people who get paid to lay down their lives. Not to mention their like the evil empire in the game. It's not like he went to some village and started killing innocent civilians. That's terrible logic .v.
psycofang2 Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) Really? Ragna is by far, the nicest guy in the entire cast. He's pretty much misunderstood by everyone. And besides, he killed NOL soldiers, people who get paid to lay down their lives. Not to mention their like the evil empire in the game. It's not like he went to some village and started killing innocent civilians. hense why i used the word SUBJECTIVE in my earlier posts. it doesnt matter if they are paid to do so, how you look at it depends on how its precieved. to some them laying down their lives to protect the civilization they have after a horrible war is noble and heroic where as some wack jpb with an Azure and a revenge plot comes in guns blazing killing them all. its subjective x N. also considering most of the NOLs forces are military trained teenagers i really dont think alot of them are as oppressive and evil like the very tiny top few. Edited April 4, 2013 by psycofang2
DragonLordZ Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 And on the subject of Azrael; there's no doubt he's an antagonist, that's for sure, but I don't see him as a "villain" more than just a straight up rival [and a much better one] to Ragna. And honestly I'd have it no other way, I'd hate for them to convolute his role any further than what's been established [although it probably will ; -; ] also to everyone crying over Rachel apparently getting smacked around or whatever by Azrael, come on, she deserves it, because Rachel is the biggest twat in the world. But that might just be me since I don't find the idea of being a belittling, pompous, bitch sexual exciting or emotionally engaging. . If Rachel's gonna be getting smacked down I hope Platinum does too, someone needs to beat some sense into that Luna bitch
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