[^C] Baiken [STRAT]

[deci]

So like with baiken why dont i see people do 6k 2hs, 6k, 2hs... 6k,2hs... i mean come on its advantage get creative.

assuming this is a real question and not an inside joke that i'm not in on..

6k has a fairly slow startup so it's hard (at least for me) to find safe ways to throw it out.

also because of the startup... after 2hs, if they stick out anything faster than 8 frames (iirc?) it will beat the next 6k.

the only ways i ever use this is for oki if i think they are going for wakeup throw. 6k, then if they block... go into 2hs to some ground string starting with 2k or 5p, or 5p for a tick throw.

and sometimes after a blocked ground string ending in tatami frc.

are there anyone other good uses for this?

[Hellmonkey]

it's pulsr fucking around, ignore it.. in fact..

[deci]

it's pulsr fucking around, ignore it..

in fact..

i figured as much...

anytime pulsr ends a sentence about guilty gear with a question mark is suspicious to me.

[cupui]

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3195

Is it that difficult to read?

Uh oh... Because the thread's name is 101 Baiken, isn't it.

I don't know that it's the basic for Baiken.

Sorry about that.

[Hellmonkey]

No problem, I'll change the thread title..

[milesokeefe]

Does a TK YZN FRC AD come out faster than an IAD? It looks like you don't have to spend time getting to AD height with it.

[rtl42]

yeah.

[Hellmonkey]

it also makes the opponent stop and lol at the waste of tension

[SHINIGAMI_mkl]

hey, is there any good block string for baiken to keep the pressure on? i cant seem to do that exept for groung combo>tatami FRC>run>continue pressure. after the tatami FRC sometime i back dash or wait to bait, IAD j.SPK or jPSD or jSH, but that doesn't seem to work all the time 'cause better players can air throw, anti air at the right time, i dont know what else to do.

[Hellmonkey]

Besides what you listed (other than iad j.P which can be ducked by most), and also adding iad j.S j.tatami which is punishable but not easily, her best options also include using Kabari or Suzuran to make up space, usually cancelling from a 5HS because it puts them in the most blockstun out of any of her moves which can cancel into either. Suzuran gets predictable and is fairly easy to react to and punish, so it should be used seldomly if at all. Kabari is great, but some characters (such as May with 3K, Sol with GV) can completely beat it by going under/over it, plus it can be IB-> backdashed and there isn't much Baiken can do about that. If you do get them to block the Kabari and they don't get their IB-> backdash you can go high (youzansen), low (2k), throw if you are in range or cancel into tetsuzansen which will bait almost any attack besides a really invincible move like a super or VV due to some strike invincibility on testsuzansen. If the tetsuzansen gets blocked you can FRC and continue pressure, if you don't it is extremely punishable. Other good options are 6King to bait a throw, and if blocked you can go back into Kabari or 5HS again, or just backdashing and doing Kabari again which baits tons of stuff and is relatively safe. In general Baiken's ability to continue pressure is weak, so more often than not her best option after a string is to keep her distance and poke with far kabari/mat/j.S/etc.

[Shinjin]

2k/5p -> 6K -> 2HS[jumpOr5p] / 5HS[kabari/tatami] /tatami is also options for what to do when you are up close. if you just wanted some "new shit" for your blockstrings :V Seldomly worth it though. 2K/5P 6K is nice though imo.

[Hellmonkey]

you could also 5P youzansen, 5P tickthrow, 5S youzansen, 6K tickthrow etc, I was just outlining the basic choices to break guard :o

[SHINIGAMI_mkl]

thx alot this'll help. I get the idea and it sounds great so I'll go try them out. thx again.

Kabari is great, but some characters (such as May with 3K, Sol with GV) can completely beat it by going under/over it

yeah i know and some even go through it like Anji's HS Fuujin.

[Agile]

hey, is there any good block string for baiken to keep the pressure on? i cant seem to do that exept for groung combo>tatami FRC>run>continue pressure.

after the tatami FRC sometime i back dash or wait to bait, IAD j.SPK or jPSD or jSH, but that doesn't seem to work all the time 'cause better players can air throw, anti air at the right time, i dont know what else to do.

I find that after and FRD'd tatami people *usually want to do something to either escape or punish. With the FRC you have a wide variety of options that include:

Close Tatami FRC : X

* stop, bait shoryu or other attack to punish

* tick throw (as soon as guard stun ends) (risky)

* 5P tick throw

* 2K 5S YZN (risky w/o RC)

* backjump j.K, if they jump and this hits j.D for KD or corner combo

* backjump j.K, if this wiffs or they don't jump, possibly backdash tatami (danger if they dash), or wait for miniumum height dash and pressure with your choice of SPK [50/50] D or land 2K > combo

* 2D TAT FRC + dash + 2K 5S 2D TAT FRC (if you continue this a few times you will likely get a combo pickup off of an eager opponent, surprisingly, this hits fairly good players)

* insanely hard: ground pressure > tatami FRC + YZN FRC + j.K. This j.K hits so low and fast that they will often eat it. To follow it up you can either just do j.D for KD, or if they're in the corner and have lots of tension j.D FRC + TAT > corner combo. While this is very hard and seems like a waste of tension, it's setups like these that if you have them in your aresenal, your opponent will guess more and you'll get a lot more 2K 5S 2D TAT pickups, as most people just block low on Baiken. I usually try these kinds of things to get that last 10% of my opponents health. This is fairly safe also, but slightly suspectible to the IB TAT + shoryu, but that's hard!

Further Tatami FRC : X

* kabari > tetsuzansen FRC > pressure

* 2D TAT FRC + dash ... (same as above)

* my favorite (note there is a safe distance that makes this LH shoryus, but can still be punished with a super or jump): ground pressure > tatami FRC > 5D.

If done correctly this can be very safe and is confusing to opponent. At this point the guard bar is slightly cranked so it's risk vs reward with 250 dmg dust, use sparingly

* ground pressure > tatami FRC > tatami: this is very safe and htis them with CH quite often, if they're in the corner is massive dmg time

Max Range Tatami FRC : X

Most of these I consider a waste of tension, but I really want to build the guard bar and maintain pressure at this range you can go:

* ground pressure > tatami FRC > 2S > kabari : [insert close/further pressure strats]

Stupid "Triple Jump" Setup (not really applicable to FRC TAT but cool nonetheless)

* for oki pressure against non-shoryu chars (still vulnerable to BD but nothing is pefect!): meaty j.K dj.K YZN FRC j.K D [FRC pickup]. This one is farily difficult to time but most people will not expect that third and forth overhead attack and will eat at least the last j.D.

Ah, that's it for now. I really want to get active in these forums, as I've been playing about a year pretty intensely, but don't frequent here often.

Let me know what you think. Disclaimer: i'm not advocating all of these, but as I said they are useful and different tools with Baiken to have. It's just about changing things up and showing your opponent you have many tools to use.

-Agile

[Hellmonkey]

Keep in mind that the block stun from a ground tatami mat is not very long, and when instant blocked they can escape extremely quickly, even after an FRC. Often times the only move with enough range and quick enough to catch them before they get away with a jump or backdash (and still get a combo) is a running immediate 2D. Instant air dashing at them can almost always be punished by air throw, or almost any 6P/anti-air attack. Suzuran can work to make up space for a throw or to bait an attack, but chances are they will jump/backdash out and depending on how quick they react they could still get a punish for your suzuran. Kabari is great, but again, it can be escaped before it hits, and by that point they are usually far enough away they can IB the Kabari and escape via 1f jump or backdash. If I choose to end a blocked ground string with tatami and choose to FRC for pressure, I will almost always either do running 2D, running throw, or depending on the character a 6K throw bait as that is her most guaranteed mixup. Instead of gatling into tatami from a blocked string, it is usually much more beneficial to end your strings in 5HS into Kabari. It is possible to have people block a Kabari after other moves, like 2S that Agile mentioned, but the chances of them escaping are high, as it's not hard. A blocked ground tatami FRC basically just burns 25% tension and gives Baiken a disadvantage in the string, pushing them further back for no guard bar build up unless you get the immediate mixup off of it. 5HS->Kabari gives her many more options if they're close in after a 5HS, and you don't have to burn the FRC for it. None of her options are 100% guaranteed without tension, and those with tension aren't extremely strong. If you can manage it, ending strings with a low j.K mixup is often very strong, and if you have an opponent that doesn't block dusts all the time you should definitely throw it in from time to time, but the option you will probably use most is to back off after a blocked string by jump cancelling a 5S or 2D. This is assuming that you already failed to get in or didn't choose to do her closer options (tickingthrowing, youzansen or jumpcancelling into youzansen, etc.)

[Agile]

I agree with Hellmonkey on the notion that you don't have much time to do things after FRC'd tatami, and most things should either be dashing 2D or start with dashing 2K if you want more pressure. One key point to remember is the mind game after the FRC. You don't have much time, but even if they instant block, a quick 2D or running 2K will CH any normal attack. One character specific caution point about 5HS > Kabari. Testament can punish this badly with IB Warrent. This is very bad for BA, so if you see this happen to you, you'll know you can bait warrent and punish hard. New Safe Idea: when opponent is in corner, you can TAT FRC back airdash TAT. If done correctly, this should be 100% safe to do and get our best opener against an eager opponent, CH Air TAT.

[Shinjin]

this should of course not be used on characters with catch-moves/parry/anything, cause its pretty much a freebie for them since it is easy to react to because one can only specialcancel after 5HS and if your opponent actually knows shit and has a catch move, they will use this against you! So 5Hs -> Kabari vs ex. Testament is a big nono, unless your opponent sucks or if you want to burn 50% tension for a warrent-bait, but its seldomly worth it with warrent having an frc and all. Faust can IB and run under it. PO can like FB-Judgegauntlet it I think... anyways, its not a safe option to do it from 5HS vs alot of characters. But go for the bullshit if it works for you I guess... Point is, if they know shit, they should be able to see the kabari coming a mile away and punish it accordingly. About Tatami-frc, like Hellmonkey said, there is not actually to much to capitalize. A quick dash-2D or just 2D directly after the frc can work as a frametrap if they try to jump without fd or spamm some random move. After they have started fearing the frametrap, you can get away with bullshit like the things Agile wrote down. On a not really related note, have you guys noticed that doing 5P 2K-okizeme owns reversal-backdashes? And if you hitconfirm the 2K (which hits, unless they are like PO or whatever) you can with ease go in to 5S jump -> combo. Just a quick pointer if some of you guys have problem with backdash-reversals and wants a option-select- kind of okizeme. (you all probably know of the basic mixups etc. so I wont bother writing about that). Start playing things safe, frametraps, tickthrow, and when you have set up your "fear", go for the baits and bullshitzz. But when you play like at an arcade, you seldomly play long enough to establish the "fear" so you have to get a feel on your opponent. But we all play agains the same people almost everytime so you just have to keep doing the fear/safe-cycle all the time. (long time no baiken-related post, lol)

[Agile]

‹— Claiming this avatar 1st! I have one specific technical input question I would like to ask you guys. It's regarding Baiken's j.D > FRC > a.Dash > Tatami from minimum height. For this sequence to be solid, I think one needs to input the dash to essentially be "buffered" after the FRC and into the board, but I'm unsure. Unfortunately, I've learned incorreclty how to execute this sequence and now it's muscle memory (the non-working version, or the not-as-reliable one). In relearning this, I'm curious how other Baiken players get this consistently with regards to their FRC dash. I assume this is the ideal input string for this sequence (assuming pickup from of 2K 5S): 8-6-D-FRC-6-236K Meaning that after you jump, but before you hit the dust button, hit forward (6) then dust, then after the FRC you only have to tap forward one more time to activate that 1st frame dash. What I'm doing is this, and it's not working very well: 8-D-FRC-6-6-236K (I realize you could use 9 or 7 for the initial jumping dust, I just find hitting the minimum height j.D easiest with 8) One of the problems I identify in training mode with this sequence is my reluctance to press two forward inputs before going into the board motion. How do other players input this? Do you buffer the first forward of the air dash before the FRC, or just FRC then press forward forward. It seems that you have to wait longer than you should to input the forward motion after the FRC for it to count. Getting this motion is key to maximizing damage with Baiken, and scoring corner knockdown. This is hurting my game and I really want to better myself, starting here. Any advice?

[Kyle]

I think the input is: 2D, 8D, 6, 6+FRC, 236K... 8 or 9 whatever. I could be wrong... but Air Dash buffering was key to Slash May combo's... Baiken combo... and I-no combo.

[rtl42]

j.D FRC 2366K don't do the directional inputs too quickly because then you will be inputting during the hitstop of j.D and for some reason (definition of hitstop?) the inputs won't register. edit to below: oh, thanks for clarifying that!

[Hellmonkey]

Like rtl said, the input is 236(5)6K I don't think that it's that your inputs don't register, but that if you input it too early the 236 won't last long enough to count after your air dash. The timing is different if your j.D whiffs, is blocked, or connects, so make sure you are practicing it with it connecting as it is a bit later than if it is blocked or whiffed. Other than that my only advice is to make it as fluid a motion as possible, it's not terribly quick just make sure you get the timing down and consistent.

[Agile]

Thanks guys, this really helped a lot!

[Hellmonkey]

There is a combo thread, you know. There is also a combo section in the guide which clearly shows how she can combo off of it.. Without tension you can only follow it up with j.P or a perfectly timed j.K, if they are close enough. You may have to super jump or delay your tatami slightly after a 2D to connect the j.P. It changes depending on what you go into the tatami with and the other character's weight and hitbox. After an FRC midscreen without more tension to blow you generally just want to j.SD or j.SPSD to get the knockdown. If you have tension, do j.SD or j.D FRC ad tatami loop, or if they are still too far from the corner you can iad j.S j.D after the low air tatami.

[Linuka]

Yeah, I was in for a rude awakening when I learned that JP after Tatami wouldn't work against everybody, (as I mainly only played again Slayer, Ky and Po (lawl). Then I go up against Jam, or another Baiken, and I'm like "WTF! THEY FLOAT!!!" So yeah, you gotta learn who all that will work again, as saving 25% tension when you can, since you don't have to FRC the mat all the time definately makes things easier (of course, sometimes you're so far away when the mat hits, you gotta FRC no matter what). Or you can do what I do and just FRC mat after mat after mat, that's the pro way to do things!!

[Hellmonkey]

j.P actually is fairly easy to connect with a superjump on Jam, due to her hitbox extending abnormally far underneath her (but not to the side, so only when relavitely close). Against Baiken I don't think it works at all, but it might be possible with a perfectly delayed mat after 2D, like you have to against Dizzy, May, and I think Bridget.