STenSatsu Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 His grabs have a 60 p2 on the second hit though. Not sure off the top of my head if we can cancel after first hit with something to avoid that though.
Kurushii Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) Added Drive notes about the Spiral Gauge under the Drive section. Filled in the overview at the top. Also finished his gatling table http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Amane_Frame_Data_(BBCP)#Revolver_Action_Table His grabs have a 60 p2 on the second hit though. Not sure off the top of my head if we can cancel after first hit with something to avoid that though. Look at the frame data, he has no cancel for the catch portion of the throw. Edited April 13, 2013 by Kurushii
Kurushii Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 [*]Hariken (236D)- A level 3 drill will hit low. Is this proven in videos? The mook has it listed as "All" for all the levels.
FatalCounter Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 Is this proven in videos? The mook has it listed as "All" for all the levels. It actually hit low, a Japanese guy was saying that here! Great work Kurushii, thx for the info!
STenSatsu Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 Added Drive notes about the Spiral Gauge under the Drive section. Filled in the overview at the top. Also finished his gatling table http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Amane_Frame_Data_(BBCP)#Revolver_Action_Table Look at the frame data, he has no cancel for the catch portion of the throw. Ah I see. Looked weird to me in the cancel box but wasn't sure exactly what that meant. So many S starters. Seems crazy lol. Looks like his best regular starter is 5c. Should be great for catching jumpers. Does look like the key to good damage is getting as many C normals in as possible with maybe a ground 236c and then ending with 623c. Pretty obvious from videos though.
Kurushii Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 It actually hit low, a Japanese guy was saying that here! Great work Kurushii, thx for the info! You welcome, but unless I see evidence of it i'm leaving it as All. You guys made mistakes guessing Highs/Lows already with the character. The mook and the Jp Wiki make no mention of it as a Low at lv3.
DerQ Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 You welcome, but unless I see evidence of it i'm leaving it as All. You guys made mistakes guessing Highs/Lows already with the character. The mook and the Jp Wiki make no mention of it as a Low at lv3. There's absolutely no evidence of it being low to be honest. It was brought VERY early on that it hits low, but I've never seen it that way + it would lead to silly unblockables: -Block level 3 drill -Eat all it's chip -Amane hits you with j.A because he has 2-3 seconds where you are forced to block -Eat a lvl3 drill combo. We'd see so much more people attempting it IMO
Kurushii Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 Yeah, sadly j.A is ass in range. If j.B was a overhead it would open up some actual good mixup options for him at his normal range.
DerQ Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 Yeah, sadly j.A is ass in range. If j.B was a overhead it would open up some actual good mixup options for him at his normal range. None of his mixups are high/low, it's all left/right/grab/TRM. That or you're allowed to be too fabulous for mixups and just chip the guy
Kurushii Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 TRM? From the videos i've watched I haven't seen one do a TRM setup. Have a video of an example?
DerQ Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 Sonya-Chan does just that all of this set. Just switching your grab timing. I mean it, just count how many times he will try and grab the guy. But just grab isn't really a scary mixup (mostly since anyone can do said setup) Thus why you can fuck up people using Barrier/Grab OS whenever you're in range that way Oh and another part of your "mixup" involves building your drill. If the opponent is content w/ blocking, you can punish him for it. Slip by a 6D, use j.D to extend your pressure, use extra frame advantage when drill level is higher, etc.
C0R Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 It actually hit low, a Japanese guy was saying that here! Great work Kurushii, thx for the info! A japanese guy told me Arakune was going to be top tier...
Kurushii Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 Sonya-Chan does just that all of this set. Just switching your grab timing. I mean it, just count how many times he will try and grab the guy. But just grab isn't really a scary mixup (mostly since anyone can do said setup) Thus why you can fuck up people using Barrier/Grab OS whenever you're in range that way Oh and another part of your "mixup" involves building your drill. If the opponent is content w/ blocking, you can punish him for it. Slip by a 6D, use j.D to extend your pressure, use extra frame advantage when drill level is higher, etc. Sonya-chan I saw nothing good. The Noel player respected his pressure too much. He was doing unsafe 236A into ground throw. That's fucking (22-32)+3L of recovery depending on the version of hop. Doing a empty hop to ground move is a horrible gimmick. She could of stuffed him hard. The other times he was doing throw attempts off of distortions, nothing new or amazing for the meter cost. Better for Amane to save his meter for defensive options since he needs CA and 632146C to get out of sticky situations. Seen better off Relius and other characters with DD tools that hold legit blockstun. The only nice damage output was this which was the Noel's player fault for not rolling forward or back. I saw one video of a player waking up into iad to get out of drill oki. Which wouldn't surprise me it works always since players could jump to avoid Relius 214B doll oki (I would need to calculate the values of his knockdowns later) Now that j.B > j.236A > j.2B setup. j.B is 16F blockstun, j.236A has a 7F delay till you can do a move, so you have 9F to do a input before blockstun is gone. With barrier you are only adding +1 to blockstun so it'll be +10. j.2B is a 16F startup meaning the opponent has 7F (or 6F after barrier) to punish you before j.2B even hits. Meaning pretty much every dp in the game, and almost all the anti-air normals will beat it out because they usually have head invul from frame 5 and on. That trick will be very character specific. A normal into 6D? I see people doing normals special canceled into 236D~A/B/C, but all of those are unsafe and really look space dependent. Nothing of Amane's has enough blockstun that I see to hold somebody for it unless im overlooking something in the frame data. Look at blockstun/frameadv values compared to the 40+ startups on his 6D and 236D~A/B/C. The only move with enough frame adv to go into a 6D is 236D~A/B/C. Don't count on any D normal (which are his best overall frame adv normals) to go into 6D, as none of them do in the gatling table. Not to mention all the D normals can't special cancel unless on hit so no fancy 5D > Hop > Crossup shit on block. If only he had normals with more than 20+ frame adv. He could do something like Normal > special canceling into the drill stance then canceling it to go into something else. Drill stance is 7F till following input then 13F recovery to cancel it, so 20F total. Maybe his Unlimited form has some... It's nothing but gimmicks people are getting off from the opponents inexperience. It's another CSE Relius character... #RIPNewCharacters
Errol Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 A japanese guy told me Arakune was going to be top tier... Bullshit, that guy was probably chinese or korean.
DerQ Posted April 13, 2013 Posted April 13, 2013 Amane probably doesn't have mixup/pressure that's out of this world and will blow everyone's mind. I'd probably agree to that, but even if the frame data suggests your opponent can press buttons and beat you... isn't the idea when going for mixup is that you think your opponent is respecting your pressure? Amane has a few knockdown situations (Gosei, Gekiren, I think his distortion on lvl1 as well) where he can come in w/ 236B > j.B or j.2B in the corner to beat rolls and that'll put him exactly at this grab range. Gimmicky certainly and in no way you are forced to respect anything he attempts afterwards, but you're still at the range where you have the choice to make something happen. If you take a look at the frame data like you said, there's a huge gap where a reversal/anti-air can come out if you're going for those crossups shenanigans. Why not just frame trap the guy then? Or fabhop away j.5C, you'll get a CH that'll lead to an emergency tech or a bluebeat 6D. (I know Tager could have just sledged here, but certain characters don't have said option) Actually, this emergency tech thingy I think applies to throw. When you said it was Noel's fault for not rolling, did you mean after the throw or after j.2B? Because this throw setup was shown in the few available combo video ressources available. Unless those who highlighted it and those who use it in matches and those who get hit by it are all unaware that you can roll, it's actually a setup. Of course, could be all wrong, but from what I've seen so far, it's been used for a while and unless your character has a ressource that beats it for free, you have to take it. Other setups will force players to eat it bluebeat or tech right into it. Normal into 6D I'd agree is gimmicky seeing how slow the startup is and seeing how you can just jump out of it easily. But the reason why I still see it as an option every now and then is that when you're pressuring from a distance, I don't see any incentive for the player to try and reversal your attacks. You gain nothing from mashing out of something like 3C > 214B > j.C or when your opponent does stuff like pushing you far enough for 2B > 5B > 2C to connect. Amane doesn't gain anything offensive from these since it's all mid attacks. I say that if you see someone respect this part of your pressure after a few times, you might just surprise them. Though yes the frame data is no incentive to even use these. Also, when I heard you mention seeing players jump and iAD out of ground drill, I've only seen it happen on standing 5D enders. The cool thing about this is that 5D > Emtpty stance cancel (no followup) > Gekiren would be timed perfectly to catch you jumping at that range making this sort of a standing oki setup. I was also thinking (before frame data was available) that it could act as a fuzzy reset to force 5C to hit and start pressure from there. But the frame data doesn't suggest such a thing, but this video led me to think so. Though then again, a lot of what I'll say comes from just watching + theory crafting and a lot of the frame data doesn't seem to back up all I say but the available footage "suggests" stuff. Damnit... when's CP
STenSatsu Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 Most of his 'mixup' is more likely to be throw or 6b/j.2b basically. Or frame traps to make them respect you and then going into a 6d or 236d off a blockstring. If he had good mixup options I doubt he'd be considered bottom tier even at a cursory glance now that people are finding actual damage. It seems much more of his gameplan is finding ways to slip in 6d in order to get to level 3 and then you don't have to care if your opponent can block. I suppose you could use a normal>fab hop against people mashing 2a or like Haku's 3c though.
Kurushii Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 Yea, looking at the hop it makes me think of Tao's 214D in options. Just he lacks the mixup options Tao gets from a move like that.
TD Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 Fabhop itself is a mixup. 236a to get back in, high profile some attacks, and he can still block(?) some dp's and the like. 214b to block those really nasty dp's like inferno divider. And the reward from a knockdown, especially from a c normal is really strong, with 6d, 2c, fabhop, etc. of course requiring a good read. I'd agree he lacks traditional mixup so it's going to be a lot different playing him, unless you played liz or someone without any mixup at all. The mixups he does have, though gimmicky are very good and safe on hit. So he's really going to test the players yomi and creativity.
DerQ Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 Definitely more pressure oriented than mixup heavy, that's for sure. But then again, when you're this fabulous, you don't need mixups! Just give em the D :mrbiscuits:
DerQ Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Some info in the main post were flat out wrong/old so I cleaned up some of it without going overboard so that it's at least up to date. I'd probably go more into details, but I'm slightly a bit reluctant to do so before we truly have the game.
Eternal Blaze Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 o___O I havent followed any CP stuff for a while, what exactly was wrong in the OP?
DerQ Posted May 22, 2013 Posted May 22, 2013 Some move descriptions didn't fit what could be observed by reading the frame data or even watching matches. 6B was described to be an overhead (it looks like one and we believed that for a while) and some other stuff such as Hariken drill level 3 hitting low was also wrong. Overall, it did a good job at explaining what move did what so it's not like I changed everything.
NumeroGaijin Posted May 23, 2013 Posted May 23, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHCJ7F8FsCw Combo very early in the video looks very good. I guess he has some pretty viable corner carry
DerQ Posted May 24, 2013 Posted May 24, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHCJ7F8FsCw Combo very early in the video looks very good. I guess he has some pretty viable corner carry If I may add, the short distance on his corner carry routes is well complimented by the ability to corner carry even backwards if you desire. From anywhere on hitting airborne opponents you should be able to bring them into the corner.
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