[CP] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[Loli Bacon]

Been playing him. Tons of fun. Some things I noticed:

2C is da gawd against specific matchups. Against characters that want to stay grounded (v-13) 2C is a giant threat they have to keep an eye on. More mobile characters can get around this easily, but against those characters you're hopping around everywhere anyway. 623C is a godsend against Mu, since she'll be jumping full screen to toss out steins. 5C, 2C, 214A j.C etc... are gdlk against Tager, as they aren't counted as projectiles and lead into some nasty damage when they connect. All of this being said, I've tinkered with a few setups that worked wonders, but it's only day 3, so we'll see if they're overall legit. Here goes:

Blockstrings:

(Barrier Guarded) 2A 2B 5B 214A j.C 236A j.B (very hard to AA)

(Barrier Guarded) 2A 2B 5B 2C 214A j.C etc... (catches jumps)

(Regular Guard) 2A 2B 5B 3C 236D~D 6B (Reactable feint, but will catch poke attempts for delishus fatal. Needs regular guard or will be too far for 6B to punish 2A mash)

(Regular Guard) 2A 2B 5B 3C 236A j.BA etc... (Basic pressure reset)

(Regular Guard) 2A 2B 5B 3C 214A j.2B react - Forces return to neutral, but they have to respond or you get free pressure. React accordingly.

2A 2B 5B 3C 236D~A - Forces them to either retreat or to approach from the air, in which case lolol 6A. Use Sparingly.

xx 5B(3 hits) 6D - If you spam fabhop forward a lot, they'll eventually try to mash DP or 6A to knock you out of the air (hard to do) so tag them with a CH 6D to get level 3.

Corner Blockstring:

xxxx 5B 236D~D/6D - Standard Drill blockstring

xxxx 5B 3C 236A j.B j.236A j.BA stuff - Make them fear the land into throw. Which leads to......

xxxx 5B 3C 236A j.B land B+C - Dat Damage

xxxx 5B 3C 214A j.C/j.2B - React accordingly

xxxx 5B 3C 214A j.C 236A j.B - More pressure. Always nice

xxxx 5B 3C 236D~D 2A/2B/6A/623C - Feint to catch them fidgeting. Use this to get them to respect 236D~A/B in the corner and use 236D~A/B in the corner to get them to respect this. Fun stuff.

And of course, rely on his sticky hands to get those counter hits full screen from people trying to do stuff

Note: All of this is in addition to basic staggers (2A being 0 on block is really nice). Mix it up, yo.:v:

[Eternal Blaze]

What's a good combo after a throw in the corner? I get get ~3.5k midscreen but dunno what to do in the corner? >.>

[Random Naoto]

What's a good combo after a throw in the corner? I get get ~3.5k midscreen but dunno what to do in the corner? >.>

The BNB so far is throw, gekiren, 2b, 5a, 6a, j. B dj j. B, j. 2C, gosei.

[DerQ]

Snip.

I'm curious in some areas whether or not you have more to say, because if I take what you say at face value for granted, there's a whole lot that doesn't add up or make abstraction of other things.

-214A > j.C > j.236A > j.B is not that hard to AA. The gap isn't too large, but you can just press 6A or input a DP. You just have to know.

-3C > 236D~D > 6B is not a situation your opponent should press a button. 236D~D heavily reduces recovery of moves and makes them plus on block and people will catch on to that. Just keep that pressure going instead of going for a call out 6B when you are plus and they shouldn't be mashing a 2A there.

-214A > j.2B to return to neutral. Why not use 5D to return to neutral? It's minus 3 on level 1 and accomplishes that nicely. Unless you want to react and do something else???

-3C > 236D~A. There's 25~ frame gap here, they can just press a button.

-5B > 6D. It's not a guessing game, the opponent can react to the fabhop. So they won't throw out a reversal if they know they can react. If they do anticipate that moment a lot, you might try that, but you'll never get a counter hit here.

-5B > 236D~D/6D (Standard drill blockstring???) What do you mean standard drill blockstring?

-3C > 236A > j.B > j.236A. I'm curious how you got that. j.B can't be cancelled into j.236A on block

-236D~D shouldn't be made for them to respect 236D~A/B. 236D~A/B is simply an efficient way to stop pressuring the opponent.

Here's another one you can add to your blockstrings as well, try to swap 2B with 6A now and then. 2A > 6A is a 1 frame gap that catches jumping out. If blocked, 6A has more blockstun and can be jump cancelled. You can do every chain you'd normal do from 2B, but you can also do rising j.D. The drill remains active until you touch the ground on level 1. It lets you stay in, builds some drill, does some chip damage and is almost airtight.

What's a good combo after a throw in the corner? I get get ~3.5k midscreen but dunno what to do in the corner? >.>

You can check combo thread page 2 for basic to advanced combos, I ought to move it to page 1 which I will do so after a slight cleanup. Quoted directly

-Throw wallstick > 5AB > 6A > 623C > 2B > 6A > j.B(3) > j.B(3) > j.236C (Gosei) [DM:4016/HG:17(-25)]

-Forward throw > 623C > 2B > 6A > 623C [DM:3381/HG:24]

-(level 3 drill basic combo) Forward throw > 623C > 2B > 2D >214A > j.6D > j.236B > j.236C [DM:4000+~]

Edited October 28, 2013 by DerQ

[TD]

despite there being a few flaws l think bacon is on to something.

of course, not pressure wise bc we all already see what he can do and we have a big ol' pressure guide. l mean in structuring what to do and what you should do next.

to elaborate, l like to think of his pressure in the form of phases. phase 1 would be ...5b 236a jb. get in, attempt to get a hit. if not, ...5b 3c 236dd dash in for phase 2. basically anytime he can be in point blank would count as a different phase.

the way bacon structured his own blockstrings has me thinking about whether it would help to have blockstrings setup like this. as someone who thrives on extended pressure, knowing what exactly beats what just looking at the structure could help everyone.

tl;dr: a tl;dr version of the pressure guide, or more ideas like this.

[DerQ]

I definitely see the value in this, I just hardly see how exactly to go about doing so. Reason for that is that I hardly see anyone using or according value to tools the same manner. One could think, make a frame trap with 236D~D and just see if they mash first. Another could say use 236A to go in right away and see if they allow you to do it and if not keep using it. That's cool and all, but who's right and who's wrong? None of them, it depends on you as a player, who you're playing, game format (Tournament vs. casuals).

Of course, with a lot more playing and experience, we can better map out blockstrings and their uses instead of having a big pile of freeform stuff. But as for phases, I'm a bit more clueless as to how to approach it. Not saying it's wrong, just wondering if it's not something more personal than factual.

[SwordsNStuff]

i'm defiantly going to try this character, how is he looking so far in terms of gameplay? what's his playstyle like?

[TD]

I definitely see the value in this, I just hardly see how exactly to go about doing so. Reason for that is that I hardly see anyone using or according value to tools the same manner. One could think, make a frame trap with 236D~D and just see if they mash first. Another could say use 236A to go in right away and see if they allow you to do it and if not keep using it. That's cool and all, but who's right and who's wrong? None of them, it depends on you as a player, who you're playing, game format (Tournament vs. casuals).

Of course, with a lot more playing and experience, we can better map out blockstrings and their uses instead of having a big pile of freeform stuff. But as for phases, I'm a bit more clueless as to how to approach it. Not saying it's wrong, just wondering if it's not something more personal than factual.

Nah the phase thing was just an example, not a guideline for others. For you first point, I understand and agree mostly, but let me clarify a little on what I meant. Let's say the player likes doing ...5b 236a jb to get in. In the structure it would tell him that this string can get him in point blank easily but loses to anti airs pretty easily. So if he wanted to do it constantly he could so long as he knew what he'd possibly lose to.

Eventually, the opponent figures this stuff out and anti airs or the player gets a hunch. One way of stuffing this would be to use 5b 2c, which simultaneously beats jumps and acts as a frame trap. It would cover the players first string like so. Then the foe may think its time to dp or whatever, and the player can get out using 224a jc.

So it wouldn't necessarily be a right or wrong thing, more of a "do this to beat this". Very much like your pressure guide which already has most of this info. There is just a lot to make sense of l guess you could say.

You're right though, perhaps everyone can keep reading it and overtime it will stick, that's how I learned rachel after all so it definitely works.

[DerQ]

i'm defiantly going to try this character, how is he looking so far in terms of gameplay? what's his playstyle like?

Converting into combos proves to be a challenge, runaway/zoning/spacing based, patience rewarding, good ways to make people block for a long period of time, lack of mixup as well as defensive options.

Snip...

Ok, I think I misread/misunderstood what you're saying. To paraphrase, you're saying "It's an important step or way of structuring and mapping out possibilities (Strengths and weaknesses)" and I read "We've raised a good point and something needs to be done about it". Don't worry, there's still stuff I'll test and have been more or less fiddling with in training that's to be added and discussed. For instance, I need to check which reversals can whiff against 2B, I also tried practicing reaction on random counter-hit j.C for optimal conversions. I'm just too busy enjoying the game to construct thoughts on the boards :3.

[Loli Bacon]

DerQ, you're right. There was a lot I wasn't saying. This is pretty much the same thing you said in your pressure guide when you said to "add noise". None of it is solid and lots of it loses to other options or are easily reacted to. The point of those strings really isn't to say "this can't be beaten. Do this." It's more or less a pressure/options branching tree like TD said. Some clarifications:

236A j.B j.236A should have been 236A j.B land tk.236A j.B. More to come when I'm out of class.

The thing is we want them to hit buttons, because when the do we can land hits since we don't have high/lows. The 236D~A/B makes them want to hit buttons or we get level 3 drill, whereas 236D~D will punish them attempting to react to Hariken Drill. It isn't that you should just use 236D~A/B on a whim, but use it if you see they're patient to add free blockstun. They start jumping it? Do 236D~D > 6A anti-air. This is what I meant by 236D~D forces them to respect 236D~A/B and 236D~A/B makes them to respect(fear) 236D~D. We want them to attempt to react to things that are reactable, but differ slightly. Like H-Kohaku 236A and BE236A. Stuff is good.

EDIT: What I'm saying is that assuming your opponent will play optimally or won't mash buttons is what gets players killed. Overestimating your opponent to do the optimal option in any given situation will blow you up, as you'll be prepared for working around their optimal options. Having various setups like xxx 236D~D > 6B is not only safe in that even if it's blocked you are still safe, but it will blow up mashing. Even professional players mash when they most definitely shouldn't, so knowing what will make them fidget, what's reactable, and what's safe will be key to winning with Amane. I'd be more willing to reset to neutral than to over stay my welcome against trigger-happy players. Some of those blockstrings allow that which allows the Amane player to react to the opponent (hilarious when they DP), or forces the opponent to respond. If you have setups, albeit slow, that forces the opponent to respond or suffer serious consequences, by all means do it. Platinum's Swallow Moon is a good example of this because Swallow Moon resets pressure but is super easy to beat. Jin's 6B does this also. Nu j.214D~D feints? Same thing. Just because it CAN be mashed out of doesn't mean it still isn't an option, so long as you have ANOTHER option that will beat the mash if they react too slow or guess incorrectly.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Loli Bacon

[SUPARSTARX]

How do I combo into Amane's astral?

[Loli Bacon]

Anything, really. Any hit from 6C(1) 222D, 5D > 222D, 2C > 222D etc...

[DerQ]

And now for a pretty big mess up on my part, I omitted the hariken break/feint recovery up until today after noticing ragna could mash 5B after 3C > 236D~D and counter Amane on anything he'd attempt to do that is not blocking or 2A. The impression that it made stuff plus on block was completely wrong. 3C > 236D~D would leave you at -2 while 5B/2C/5C/6A would leave you at -4. I was fiddling with it earlier and got different conclusions from it. If you attack ASAP after the feint, an opponent can mash out just a poke that reaches and most likely Counter hit you. From a good distance (2C or max range 3C), you can hariken feint and simply delay the following attack and you'd whiff punish any mash attempt or reversals.

I'm also wondering if I'm not doing it too slow, but that means that 236D~D > 6B fatal attempt only works on lows > grabs. Tested against ragna's 5B and he got a counter hit everytime against 6B. This frame data overlook would explain that.

The other interesting and sad aspect is that if I would whiff punish a normal, I wouldn't get counter hit. I'm really wondering if I'm just doing something wrong on my end

@Loli bacon, when you said 236D~D > 6B caught mashing, did you get similar results or did you only manage testing it against low attacks?

Snip... (I did read the edit as well)

Yeah I did miss a lot of the context that goes into that list and conditioning or seizing player for their tendencies to mash and how they do it as well as how you oughta respond to it makes perfect sense. Though, I seriously doubt an opponent would act as if 236D~D grants respect for 236D~A simply because if you react to 236D, one followup is 13 frames and the other is 40. In a case like the Nu faints you brought up, I can't react as easily to whether or not a 17 frames high attack is coming or a 20+12 empty into a low. The gap and visual cues are a lot closer to each other compared to 236D~D and 236D~A/B. The possible followups are still quite far from each other for the first visual cue (236D) to entice a decision based on reaction to what follows (~D or ~A/B). Jin 6B's counterpart happens really close to that 25 frames startup, Nu jump 214D are 16 frames from each other. Amane 236D~D and 236D~A/B are 27 frames from each other, that's purple grab startup to put it into perspective.

How do I combo into Amane's astral?

An interesting thing to note. 5D is not special cancellable meaning you can choose to input astral if you just pressure with 5D and it'll option select what comes next. If it's blocked nothing comes out and you chip an opponent below 25% health, if 5D catches, astral comes out and you win.

[Loli Bacon]

snip

I've had odd issues with CHs in this game. I've had times where I would 6A Jin 6B and not get a CH, or I'd punish a whiffed AA attempt with 214A j.C and not get a CH. With 236D~D 6B, that's used as a low/grab beater. 5B from Ragna, as well as Mu/Jin 5C will just counter hit you if you do anything from it because it's so slow. But that's when you use 214A j.C etc...

The confusion might also come from my terminology. This might help:

Mashing: 2A/5A. The fast move to quickly connect an attack. 236D~D 6B beats that.

Poking: anything slower than 5A such as 5B/5C.

Mashing is faster, so the rapid button presses are required. Mashing 2A/5A if I do 214A j.C instead of 6B setup isn't nearly as punishable as using 5B. 5B wouldn't be considered mashing (generally) because the risk of mashing a slower move means you're at higher risk of being counterhit by a stagger or something the player didn't expect, thus it's a poke.

Does that help?

[Random Naoto]

I messed around with some more frame data today, and all three levels of j. D are +6 on block, the only caveat being that at level 3, you have to either delay it out of a zettou or do it later in a jump, since it has less active frames than levels 1 and 2. In any case, you want to hit them so that the landing cancels the animation rather than running out of active frames, since you won't get your frame advantage.

j. 6D done as low as possible is -3 at level 1, even at level 2, and +3 at level 3 when you hit the ground again.

Also posted some level 3 combos in the combo thread.

[DerQ]

Confirms some expectations, I was wondering something else, but I just went into training mode to test and that was how you'd actually get Fatal counter and that'd be only close range and the opponent doing a slightly delayed 2A or mashing it twice.

[TD]

Ugh. Whoever's STUPID idea it was to make gekiren possible only with 623 needs to get punched. This damn move is needlessly difficult to link. Thinking about forgetting he has the move honestly unless it gets patched.

Rant over, that felt good... Seriously though. Shit's hard.

[Justice7541]

Learn to execution bro. I'd prefer a slightly stricter 623 input over 3c 236c constantly becoming a dp like it does with Hazama.

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[Eternal Blaze]

I'm not a fan of the stricter 623 input either, its honestly driving me away from playing Amane. So far there's not much I dont like about this game but I DEFINITELY hate this nonsense.

[sparkaura]

Ugh. Whoever's STUPID idea it was to make gekiren possible only with 623 needs to get punched. This damn move is needlessly difficult to link. Thinking about forgetting he has the move honestly unless it gets patched.

Rant over, that felt good... Seriously though. Shit's hard.

Its very annoying, when I try to do the motion on the fly in combos 90% of the time I fail. I have to think about where my fingers are to get the motion out correctly which is bad practice in general.

[TD]

agreed. l originally thought it wouldn't be much of a problem, but oh how wrong l was. it really is like you have to feel your fingers press the right buttons.

l could understand him having difficult hitconfirms, wonky combos, and unrelenting defense should he screw up, but having a single move be this silly to whip out on a whim... honestly, it's surprising. never dealt with something like this in bb before.

hopefully arc hears our whining and does something about it

[Justice7541]

Are you guys really finding it that difficult? Granted it is a bit awkward to have to remember to do the motion cleanly but I haven't found it to be that bad. I am on a pad I guess and those are probably easier for dps.

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[Mitsu-chan]

about 623 imputs, just hold 3, it may take some time to get used to it, but that solves the problem.

[Mitsu-chan]

now, about amane, 5b 3c 236a blockstirngs are pretty cool, it trades withs 5a and anti airs beat it, but you can j.214a to get away and get a j.c counterhit. if they respect it, you can go for j.b j.2c j.d land 5b to reset preasure, or j.b j.2c j.236a j.2c crossup (looks hard to react, have tested it with a friend and said it was bullshit, so i guess its something decent). add some j.2b here and there so its not always the same.

at neutral i think staying at 5b/j.b mid/max range is the best, most run-type dashs go under 5c and if you go for 2c and they iad you are done for.

also, sometimes i trade when i do a 5b or j.b, so i guess they have extended hurtboxes.

[sparkaura]

Are you guys really finding it that difficult? Granted it is a bit awkward to have to remember to do the motion cleanly but I haven't found it to be that bad. I am on a pad I guess and those are probably easier for dps.

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Im also on the pad also. Stopping my fingers at 3 is hard because one slight nudge in the wrong direction and raibu comes out and I get murdered loll. I just need to practice more I guess, gotta break the habit.