[CP] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[DerQ]

So Amane can Kara 5D into grab. That's pretty neat, but the range increase seems so small. I don't know how useful that'll prove to be, but not a bad habit to do just piano 5D > grab if your intent is grabbing in the first place.

Other than that, I've been fiddling with the more optimized combo routes that end in 6C > 236A > j.C > j.6C > 236C. I was trying to find a way to get optimized damage off Gosei RC > 2C, but same attack combo would make them drop out, forcing you to settle for little damage and a bad knockdown. Instead of going for Gosei ender, I figured I'd just go for j.D and remembered that this could be something worth experimenting with. Builds drill (half a meter), lets you do a bit more damage and you get a new tech scenario. They can:

-Air tech neutral, tech trap into 5B air hit. GDLK starter

-Air tech in some direction, hard to catch. Not assuming this is reliable

-Late tech until they recognize the knockdown. This gives you two possible choices. Either a mid screen j.2B that covers a roll. If they late tech for a long time, you can 5B > 6D.

None of this is tested and it's presumably not gonna be stable. I'll experiment w/ it a bit.

[Lord Pwnge18]

Alright, so I started messing around with Amane because this combo video is godlike. This character looks fun as hell.

So far this character feels super weird, and the spacing on all of his C moves is like it's gotta be picture perfect. I'll keep screwing around in the lab tryin to get a better feel for his tools, but I'd love to spar with you guys sometime.

[Dazardz]

I was also in the lab with Amane today, because I wanna learn the guy. I was just messing around with combos, and I found a setup after throw. I have no idea if it is practical or not, so I wanted to post it here. May have already been found.

Throw > 236D~D > 5C (1) > 6C (6C(2)) > 236D~A. DMG: 2040.

This can also be changed a little for a bit more damage.

Throw > 236D~D > 5C (1) > 6C (6C(2)) > 236D~D > 2B > 6A > j.B > j.B (this is hard to get) > 236C. DMG: (I forgot lol)

Then you can also do some basic things like:

Throw > 236D~D > 5C > 623C. DMG: Around 2600, I don't remember that. It's about 100 more damage than the usual Throw > 623C.

Throw > 236D~D > 5C > 6C (6C(2)) >236C.

Getting the 5C after 236D~D is super hard, but actually pretty easy once you get used to it. I was testing this on Azrael at the time. Your also going to have to hit the opponent with 5C as early as you can to land 2 hits of 6C, against some characters. Only one hit of 6C will hit the opponent if they are a small character like Carl (because I really only tested this on Az and Carl).

Aside from that, I'm going to learn more Amane because it's fun drilling people to death in 20 seconds once you hit level 3.

Edit:

I'll get a video up sooner or later.

Another edit:

You can 2 hits from 5C on Tager making it easier to hit him with 6C :D This combo might not even be practical though.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Dazardz

[Keranata]

I was also in the lab with Amane today, because I wanna learn the guy. I was just messing around with combos, and I found a setup after throw. I have no idea if it is practical or not, so I wanted to post it here. May have already been found.

Throw > 236D~D > 5C (1) > 6C (6C(2)) > 236D~A. DMG: 2040.

This can also be changed a little for a bit more damage.

Throw > 236D~D > 5C (1) > 6C (6C(2)) > 236D~D > 2B > 6A > j.B > j.B (this is hard to get) > 236C. DMG: (I forgot lol)

Then you can also do some basic things like:

Throw > 236D~D > 5C > 623C. DMG: Around 2600, I don't remember that. It's about 100 more damage than the usual Throw > 623C.

Throw > 236D~D > 5C > 6C (6C(2)) >236C.

Getting the 5C after 236D~D is super hard, but actually pretty easy once you get used to it. I was testing this on Azrael at the time. Your also going to have to hit the opponent with 5C as early as you can to land 2 hits of 6C, against some characters. Only one hit of 6C will hit the opponent if they are a small character like Carl (because I really only tested this on Az and Carl).

Aside from that, I'm going to learn more Amane because it's fun drilling people to death in 20 seconds once you hit level 3.

Edit:

I'll get a video up sooner or later.

Another edit:

You can 2 hits from 5C on Tager making it easier to hit him with 6C :D This combo might not even be practical though.

You can cancel throw into zettou C-6C-2C-zettou-B-Divekick which is your go to, otherwise if you want drill you can do throw 236D~C > Dash > 6D

The Cancel 5c>6C combos your talking about are slightly more optimal ONLY if you actually do a real combo after them and the difficulty varies to impossible on certain small characters

https://www.youtube.com/user/kamoihito/videos months ago he made combo videos for just about every situation with Amane, I recommend you watch them

[Dangaboy]

So Amanes drill stance now has armor and increases drill meter faster, his 2A moves no longer hit twice and just hit once. Theres more changes but I can't tell what they say. Heres the link: http://blazblue.jp/cp/update110.html

[c.Funky]

Ok here is some translation, keep in mind that it can be not 100% perfect

2A – 1 hit instead of 2

5С – less recovery

6D – gives less drill gauge on whiff

Hariken – stance now has projectile-guard frames. Spiral gain is faster

632146C – higher damage, after hit amane left closer to the opponent (I wonder if you can combo after it?)

Summary It looks like they want Amane to use hariken stance to get drill gauge.

Edited February 13, 2014 by c.Funky

[STenSatsu]

Well, it's more that Hariken might be legit for charging drill at neutral now. Hope 2a got sped up if it is only 1 hit now. Other than that, changes to pretty much everything expected. Looking good. Not sure why they nerfed 6d whiff charge lol, if you whiffed that you were dead anyway.

[ItsDaveyJ]

Now I haven't played the actual game (the second it gets any sort of Xbox, Steam, or PS4 release, I'm all over that) but do these changes seem like enough for Amane? Seems a bit underwhelming to me.

[Minerva_sc]

Mostly buffs, though nothing amazing or that will change his game plan unless Hariken gives insane drill meter. faster 5C recovery could be nice dependingon how fast, maybe new combo possibilities?

[STenSatsu]

Now I haven't played the actual game (the second it gets any sort of Xbox, Steam, or PS4 release, I'm all over that) but do these changes seem like enough for Amane? Seems a bit underwhelming to me.

To be honest, I feel like most of his 'weakness' is in his C normals and lack of defense. If 2a is sped up now that it hits only once, it will up his defensive game by giving him a better normal to hit on D. 5c recovery also helps this. I don't think he'll ever be top tier due to character design unless they make his drill gauge extremely easy to get to level 3 with aside from 6d. But these, along with the other characters' changes could make him high mid depending on how they work out. Though since most of the top tiers didn't really get nerfed at all it will be interesting.

[DerQ]

It's too hard to conclude something honest from only these changes (assuming there's more). That and system changes

But the prospect of having drill level 2 from neutral might be a really good starting point. More hits per 5D even on barrier, easier to maintain from neutral, more frame advantage. This could be really big.

2A one hit is a better grab game. Tick throws are wonky with Amane and having one hit will make a good difference. That means better mixup from point blank. He lacks good mixups, but his design doesn't deserve some at the same time. This seems fair.

@Stensatsu, 2A won't be faster... Just one hit instead of two. That doesn't change his defensive game at all unless it would be something like faster startup. It'd be nice, but it remains a "IF"

On and on, these changes mostly look like increasing rewards, reducing risks only slightly for things you could already do. But not really game changing or enough to alter his gameplan.

[Errol]

having a 2a that takes 25 frames from start to recovery is certainly a negative on defense. they probably dropped it a good 7 or 8 frames total, that's pretty helpful.

[DerQ]

My bad, for some reason I read that as faster startup instead of faster as a whole and largely assumed 2A's frame data was like 5A. Disregard my comment on that, posted way too fast. Thanks for simply pointing these frame numbers and pointing out that mistake.

[sparkaura]

Ok here is some translation, keep in mind that it can be not 100% perfect

2A – 1 hit instead of 2

5С – less recovery

6D – gives less drill gauge on whiff

Hariken – stance now has projectile-guard frames. Spiral gain is faster

632146C – higher damage, after hit amane left closer to the opponent (I wonder if you can combo after it?)

Summary It looks like they want Amane to use hariken stance to get drill gauge.

I wonder does the 6D portion count for it being blocked. If so that means you can do a 6D set up and have it eat their barrier and still get to level 3 drill considering you can hold the move until dril overheat. Seems like a buff to me, I was hoping Hariken would be like Itsune but proectile guard frames are nice too.

[Cynthetik]

I wonder does the 6D portion count for it being blocked. If so that means you can do a 6D set up and have it eat their barrier and still get to level 3 drill considering you can hold the move until dril overheat. Seems like a buff to me, I was hoping Hariken would be like Itsune but proectile guard frames are nice too.

I'm pretty sure it is only a nerf to a wiffed 6D. From the sounds of it, the move is unchanged if it still connects. They probably did this to ensure that players have to actually hit-confirm into 6D and not be rewarded for just throwing it out there/not properly setting it up. Honestly, this nerf seems so minor that its almost negligible.

[Eshi]

They buffed Amane without changing how he actually plays, that's exactly what I was hoping for! It of course depends on how far they went on each but the changes to 2A, Hariken and reversal super are all great ways to alleviate his flaws. I really couldn't ask for more.

[sparkaura]

I'm pretty sure it is only a nerf to a wiffed 6D. From the sounds of it, the move is unchanged if it still connects. They probably did this to ensure that players have to actually hit-confirm into 6D and not be rewarded for just throwing it out there/not properly setting it up. Honestly, this nerf seems so minor that its almost negligible.

That makes sense. Regardless using hariken is safer than throwing out 6D anyway. Buffs to our fabulous overlord!

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[Loryuo]

I have a question regarding.....i think it's called proration? When i usually get a counter hit with a J. B, J. A on an air hit or a 5B for an anti air, or a 6A for anti-air, usually they fall out of the combo at certain points.

I don't understand proration, but do the combos need to be adjusted depending on how many attacks are added prior to using 5C, 6C, and 2C? or maybe i'm just doing my C moves to early or late?

[DerQ]

As far as I'm concerned, proration is only damage scaling in BBCP. Someone confirm or deny if it's more than that.

The combo "timer" might explain why they drop out at some points in the combo. I'll just sum it up because you can find all the details on the dustloop wiki or more specifically this section

When you do a combo in BBCP, an invisible timer runs and decays the hitstun on your attacks. This timer varies depending on the first attack of the combo. An N starter will equate to more time allowed before hitstun starts decaying over S starters. In Amane's case as well as most of the cast, you'll really only have to worry about those two (N and S starter). These values can be found for each move on Amane's frame data page under the Starter column.

Aside from the numbers behind, just understand that hitstun starts decaying 5 seconds in the combo if the starter has a good value and 2 seconds if the starter has a bad value. Once hitstun starts decaying, some combo routes become impossible since the opponent can hold to tech and get out. A good example is 5B > 5C > 6C on an airborne opponent. If the hitstun started decaying, 5C won't connect from 5B and 6C won't connect from 5C.

If combos are dropping out for you, then it might just mean you ran the timer to a point where the combo you wanted to do doesn't work anymore. That or simply doing something that wouldn't work normally anyway.

I hope this answers what you were looking for, let me know if I misunderstood what you were asking

[STenSatsu]

Proration is indeed only for damage now. It's not how many attacks have been done before they drop out, it is how many seconds/frames have passed since the combo began. For Amane, all A normals, his throws, 5c, 2c, all air C normals, and all D normals are S starters. What this means is that if you start the combo with these normals, you will have quite a bit less time before attacks start dropping. Everything else is N starter which means most normal combo routes should work fine.

You also may just be trying to do too long a combo in general. It's hard to say what the exact problem is without the actual combo you performed and knowing where they dropped out.

[Loryuo]

Ahh i understand now. my mistake. the combo i'm trying to do is

6A CH, 5CC, 6CC, 236A, J.CC, J.6CC, J.2CC, 236B, J.b, J. 5C, J. 6CC, J. 2CC, 236C.

i'm actually getting it to the point where it's at 236C, but now it just seems i'm having height problems =/

[DerQ]

List of changes for Amane from http://pastebin.com/eBv2pyPp

• backdash: total duration changed from 20 to 25f. invincibility duration changed from 1-5 to 1-7f. airborne duration changed from 1-16 to 1-19f. distance travelled increased
  
• negative penalty resistance: changed from level 2 to level 4
  
• knockdown state: hitbox during face up and face down knockdown is larger
  
• 2A: hits only once. frame data changed from startup/active/recovery 7/2(6)1/11 to 7(5 when mashed)/3/9.
  
• 5c: recovery reduced from 18 to 12f
  
• 6d: on whiff, spiral gauge increase changed from 200 to 60
  
• airthrow: ground bounce from the first hit easier to follow up
  
• hariken stance 236D: starting from 5f has projectile armor. spiral gauge increase starts at 60 and goes up by 10 each frame to a maximum of 100 per frame.
  
• gekiren 623C: attack disappears if amane is hit
  
• 632146C: damage increased, leaves amane closer to the opponent on hit
  
• Astral: hits higher up
  
  
  Shedding some light on what I find interesting
  
  
  • Backdash IMO is a buff depending on the distance increase. Covering the distance and invuln takes different pressure. More to cover on the opponent, more defensive capabilities for Amane.
    
  • The punishment for whiffing 6D is pretty big, but it's already something to avoid.
    
  • I checked the math for Hariken stance, it currently goes from 60 to 100 over a span of 2 seconds. Now it would go from 60 to 100 over a span of... 10 frames? That'd be nuts. I wanted to be able to gain level 2 drill from neutral, this should be plenty good to allow for it. I also wonder if stance on knockdown instead of oki can become a thing.
    
  • Gekiren could catch an opponent an still hit while Amane would trade with something (Mu's laser for instance). Happened to me once in a match, could probably trade into meterless 2C. Looks goofy, unintended and out the door.
    
  • Astral buff would help connect air hits into astral I guess? Something like 5B air hit, 5D air hit in the corner, maybe 6C(1). I dunno
    

  Good changes overall.

Edited March 11, 2014 by DerQ

[TD]

He does look stronger overall. Wonder just how big they will make his hitbox...

Though out of the blue, this change could be threatening if the devs decided to have his knockdown sprites be him lying on an OTGable, large scarf.

It likely will be a mild change, though.

[Cynthetik]

Overall it's a solid list of buffs with very minor nerfs.

Thoughts on buffs:

• I am curious as to the change to Amane's astral hit box, new combo routes into astral might be possible(?).
  
• The recovery on 5C is a lot more than what I was expecting (it recovers almost as fast as his current 2A!). This normal is going to become a real nice poke to harass our opponents at neutral.
  
• Definitely feel like the Backdash change could actually be a buff, having 2 extra frames of invincibility is going to be really nice.
  
• Really excited to see the new Hariken stance in action, could potentially be HUGE. The projectile armor and increased drill meter gain means more consistent drill levels at neutral.
  
• Currently the buff I am most excited for is the change to 2A. Finally having a real throw game using tic throws is going to be amazing because a throw is a free ticket to level 3 drill
  
• Increase negative penalty resistance means we can be more annoying and run/hop away for longer. This is really good for Amane.
  
• Wish we could see how much more damage 632146C does now, but it looks like we will have to wait to see the numbers. Either way, this is a fantastic buff cause the super as it is now is hot garbage at level 1/2. Wonder what will be possible now that it leaves Amane closer to opponent. Possibility to always combo after it(?).
  
  
  Thoughts on nerfs:
  
  
  • The larger hitbox during knockdown nerf sucks, but I kinda saw it coming. Too many people complain about combos dropping on our fabulous character.
    
  • Nerf to 6D is minuscule. Amane should not have been rewarded with free drill meter for whiffing this normal. Means that we have to hit confirm into 6D, no biggie.
    
  • Gekiren disappearing when getting hit seems more like a fix than a nerf. Whenever this traded with something, it looked really out of place. Makes sense to have it disappear.
    

  I am still not sure how any of this is going to address his current problems though, but anything helps! I am going to miss Amane's top tier hitbox when he is getting combo'd though

[Eshi]

I like the change to his backdash. Longer total animation is a downside, but I get hit out of my backdash with 2A's and other silly stuff all the time because the invincibility is so short. Hopefully people will actually have to adapt & react to his backdash instead of punishing it without even trying.

thank fucking christ for the negative penalty resistance. I get it way more frequently than I would like in matches and it makes NO sense, Amane is a zoning/runaway character with bad defense. He definitely deserved it.

2A buff is so good. 5C buff is solid. I absolutely can not wait for the Hariken buff. I literally have never used astral and don't even know the input LOL.

Does the hitbox change include his air hitbox too? AKA Valkenhyn's combos won't drop anymore? =(