[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion (Pre-Console Release)

[Fluck]

Bang's 5C is a 24F overhead, lol. It only hits on that frame on crouchers.

The reason why twitch reacting and pure reaction are different is because a pure reactor can't be baited. In other words a twitch reaction is a guess and therefore even the best players should not be able to block it consistently if they undergo the same situation a few times. This is why throws are good and probably why you see them being applied more often, because they are so fast that most players just twitch react rather than pure react to it. Also, I just want to put it out there that throws are actually 20F because of the throw animation, but if you wait for the exclamation they are never purely reactable.

This has been said countless times but I really wanted to reiterate it because of how important it is to understand how mixup actually works in BB :V

[AMB Bakery]

Eh, the reward for upper weakpoint diminishes a little bit when you know your opponent will burst the second they get hit with valiant charger. If you strip away that, then there's not much difference between upper and lower weakpoints as far as hit effects go. The combo checklist for Azrael outside of landing valiant is landing rekkas, ground-bounce, and aerial, which you can do with either weakpoint with similar if not exactly the same damage. Lower weakpoint gets applied pretty often too so long as rekkas hit an aerial opponent.

If anything it's more sad that they'd go for the overhead just cos an upper weakpoint is applied. The weakpoint system has an application in mix-up not only as a bonus reward but also as a conditioning tool. Anybody familiar with Azrael will see that upper weakpoint is a temptation to go for another overhead. It is just a basic high-low game, sure, but (I like to believe) Azrael's got a nice extra layer to that mind-game. Plus the lows are faster, so if the opponent tends to mash out of overheads then you get stupid counter hit combos.

EDIT: You do need upper weakpoint for disco combos though... damn.

Edited July 26, 2013 by AMB Bakery

[Errol]

Bang's 5C is a 24F overhead, lol. It only hits on that frame on crouchers.

I'm only coming in here to say one thing.

Bangs 5c may not take till whatever frame to hit crouchers, but..

for the purposes of lots of stuff you might do against other overheads, it's 18 frames. Cuz if you stand up, you get hit. If you want to dp, you better do it during the 1 frame gap before it goes active, forget jumping out, or throwing, etc.

[zeth07]

Eh, the reward for upper weakpoint diminishes a little bit when you know your opponent will burst the second they get hit with valiant charger. If you strip away that, then there's not much difference between upper and lower weakpoints as far as hit effects go. The combo checklist for Azrael outside of landing valiant is landing rekkas, ground-bounce, and aerial, which you can do with either weakpoint with similar if not exactly the same damage. Lower weakpoint gets applied pretty often too so long as rekkas hit an aerial opponent.

If anything it's more sad that they'd go for the overhead just cos an upper weakpoint is applied. The weakpoint system has an application in mix-up not only as a bonus reward but also as a conditioning tool. Anybody familiar with Azrael will see that upper weakpoint is a temptation to go for another overhead. It is just a basic high-low game, sure, but (I like to believe) Azrael's got a nice extra layer to that mind-game. Plus the lows are faster, so if the opponent tends to mash out of overheads then you get stupid counter hit combos.

Well the other thing about it is that he has other normal lows besides 2D/3D, but his only normal overheads are 5D/6D. I just think Valiant is the "go to" thing which is why you always see them end aerials with j.D instead of j.2D if nothing is applied, there's just no doubt about that because of the damage + corner carry from it.

I'd look at the 3Ds after TCL as a bonus more than anything, which does help his game out in the same way it does for adding weakpoints if they no tech. The reward from upper weakpoint doesn't diminish because you are more or less forcing a burst out of them OR you're getting a lot in return if they don't. Plus the exact same thing can be said with any other weakpoint combo so it just goes back to Valiant being > Hornet no matter what.

I'm not even sure what we're debating anymore but yea lol.

[AMB Bakery]

No, no, it's my fault for making a mountain out of a mole-hill. I guess it's just that looking at his gatling table is haunting me. He does have normal lows, but he can gatling into drive mix-up off anything. As simple as this character is, I just want to believe there's at least a little exploring left to be done.

IJOU DESU.

for me, at least

[LegendaryRath]

Just wanted to say thanks for keeping the video thread up to date, Zeth. This seems to be one of the only character forums to have so much structure and consistent updates. Glad to be planning on maining Azrael :D

[zeth07]

Just wanted to say thanks for keeping the video thread up to date, Zeth. This seems to be one of the only character forums to have so much structure and consistent updates. Glad to be planning on maining Azrael :D

No problem. Hopefully the forums at least help someone with playing Azrael.

[AMB Bakery]

Regarding the valiant charger combos in Ke-go's "both weakpoints applied" video, don't you suppose you could do that off any decent TC>Valiant combo as well? Omitting the 2C because of repeat proration, I'd think that 5A>5B>3C>6A or just 5A>5B>6A would also work after non-weakpoint hornet launch thanks to wallstick. If it didn't though, surely you could land the same combo in the video off [decent starter]>TCL>rapid>Valiant combo.

[zeth07]

OEE's combos are ridiculous. If you want to style on someone, any of those combos would do the trick. Just as long as you somehow manage to get those exact stipulations lol, good luck with that though.

[Solless]

When this game comes out and I can get some better footage quality, I hope to make a combo video based to this track http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dVKMla1LAY

Edit: Anyone like to help with this project? I currently don't see high odds of getting a capture device in the near future.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Solless

[LegendaryRath]

SKD already made a Narukami combo vid with that track, if you weren't already aware.

I have pretty much all the equipment anyone would need, so if we ever need something recorded, I can probably get that done for you guys.

[Solless]

Any suggestions for the then? I thought it would work with Azreal real well because....well, that song is kind of his mindset.

[AMB Bakery]

Here's how you'll find music that NOBODY HAS HEARD OF (you hipster) to use in your Azrael CMV:

Step 1: Find the C84 Upload Spreadsheet

I'll PM you the link if you have too much difficulty finding it

Step 2: Find a song that you like. Shouldn't be hard since it's partially organized by genre. I'd go with Easy Listening, Classical, or Jazz. Really fits Azrael imo.

Step 3: Download that shit

Step 4: Wonderful Daily Life

somebody must get this reference

[SoWL]

Step 4: Wonderful Daily Life

somebody must get this reference

Uchouten Kazoku?

[AMB Bakery]

A winner already... hayakatta.

But yeah uh make sure you include as much impractical/hard to link moves and cross-under/cross-up hitbox stuff as you can. That's the kind of stuff that looks cool. Shouldn't be too hard with Azrael since all of his moves have stupid hitboxes anyway (5B, 2C, 6C, 6D, j.B, j.C, j.2D off the top of my head)

[Solless]

Here's how you'll find music that NOBODY HAS HEARD OF (you hipster) to use in your Azrael CMV:

Step 1: Find the C84 Upload Spreadsheet

I'll PM you the link if you have too much difficulty finding it

Nope, can't find it.

Step 2: Find a song that you like. Shouldn't be hard since it's partially organized by genre. I'd go with Easy Listening, Classical, or Jazz. Really fits Azrael imo.

You and I then have very very VERY differing opinions.

I never said I wanted it to be a song people never heard. I also found the ending verses of Kill em all (Hit the wall so hard that when I'm done, ain't nuthin left at all) would be a fitting place to have 2 combo videos that end in BHS at the corner, which will like shatter the video or something to that effect.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Solless

[psycofang2]

Nope, can't find it.

You and I then have very very VERY differing opinions.

I never said I wanted it to be a song people never heard. I also found the ending verses of Kill em all (Hit the wall so hard that when I'm done, ain't nuthin left at all) would be a fitting place to have 2 combo videos that end in BHS at the corner, which will like shatter the video or something to that effect.

i dunno, its your CMV but kill em all is a little too...for lack of better word crude (love the song anyway, also screen shattering is 4th wall level awesome) . id say listen to Jaw- (check it im the baddest man alive, damage planets with a blow the savage beast will not survive, im the king) or Play for keeps (same ost from max anarchy where kill em all came from) or the second redux of kill em all called Merciless-(I'm something like a liger, Eye of the tiger, Heart of a lion, Spit venomous like spiders ,Hand me the mic prior, To these wannabes and liars, Feel the wrath from messiah ,They the gas, I'm the fire)

id really recommend either Kill em all, Jaw or Merciless. once typical violence is honed into a perfect form it becomes bloody art in motion.

[Solless]

I've been testing them out, but I'm still on the fence about those 3. I'll try listening to them more after work.

Demise kind of sounds good as far as beats go, but I can't really understand the lyrics.

I kind of am still leaning towards Kill em All because, as you said it's a little crude, and Azreal seems like the actual brawler/street fighter of the cast. Headbutts, foot stomps at bodies/feet, using his coat, Sentinel Dump (I have no idea what to classify this as), and etc from his repertoire. Thank you for the suggestions though, I'll still give them another couple of listens after work.

Edit: Tried them again, and though I'm still iffy on merciless, Jaw is sounding good. That and We Play.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Solless

[Koopa_Klawz]

Why is it everytime Azrael hits Tao with his DP Tao can just zip right back at him and get a CH? Is Azrael holding down his DP too long or does it have THAT much recovery?

[Lucalibur]

Why is it everytime Azrael hits Tao with his DP Tao can just zip right back at him and get a CH? Is Azrael holding down his DP too long or does it have THAT much recovery?

GROWLER\HEHEHE has very pathetic untechable time on normal hit. Short enough that the enemy can air tech and air dash for free pressure, or in specific cases like Tao, actually CH Azrael out of the recovery. Its pretty stupid, really.

[Yazumatto]

Growlah's gotta have some downsides when you consider the fact that it eats projectiles and gives you access to a new move.

That and it looks badass. ( ｢・ω ・）｢

[zeth07]

Growlah's gotta have some downsides when you consider the fact that it eats projectiles and gives you access to a new move.

That and it looks badass. ( ｢・ω ・）｢

It's throwable and due to the nature of it almost works against him in some match-ups considering the above. Sure you might get the opponent off you and deal some damage if it hits, but when that opponent is Mu/etc. and now she's fullscreen and you have to run the gauntlet to get to her again, it's not exactly the best thing in the world compared to other reversals. BUT at least it's something.

[Solless]

In Kaichi vs Naru, I noticed that Kaichi never followed the rekka chain (forget the name) with Valient crasher. Did he need to have a weakpoint on Naru for that combo to be doable?

[Putin]

So, Fenrichi subs Azrael. And beats Matoi with him.

This character is now officially blessed by our based teenage Jin lord. :lordknight:

[AMB Bakery]

In Kaichi vs Naru, I noticed that Kaichi never followed the rekka chain (forget the name) with Valient crasher. Did he need to have a weakpoint on Naru for that combo to be doable?

If you want the full combo, yes, you need the upper weakpoint, but the main thing that allows you to connect Valiant after the first two rekka stages is to hit an airborne opponent, 2C > 2B 236C 46C > 236D being a common path.

EDIT: ....except he actually did do this in the match, after a successful crush trigger to win the 2nd round.

So, Fenrichi subs Azrael. And beats Matoi with him.

One of the most amazing things about that set to me was Fenrichi's mastery of Azrael normals, in the first match in particular. He was getting almost frame-perfect chains on whiff, which is scary considering how good Azrael's normals are (2C/5B da gawd in this match-up).

And concerning this Growler discussion, it can still be used as a ghetto DP/meterless CA in blockstrings so long as you think you'll catch your opponent off guard. The blowback has a very high horizontal velocity, so if they don't tech in time (or aren't already holding a button in anticipation of it), the distance it creates is useful, at least in the match-ups where creating distance doesn't make it a nightmare for you (i.e. Hazama, Mu, Nu, Amane to some extent, etc.)

Also, zeth, that white Azrael vs Amane: Azrael's name is "Hakumofu" which I think translates to "white fluff"

EDIT 2: I know I'm a week late to the punch on this but... using DUMP after Valiant Charger to absorb the burst? We in there? Honestly, this won't avoid somebody who frame-perfect bursts after the first kick (though maybe it will, idk, depends on hitstop or how early you can cancel into dash and cancel the dash into DUMP) but it's pretty hot and option-selects into a combo regardless (recall sweet-ass triple-DUMP combos in recent combo vids).

Edited August 28, 2013 by AMB Bakery