[CP] Bullet Gameplay Discussion

[BunniesFromHell]

for what it's worth, i went CT noel -> CS arakune -> CS2 lambda -> EX ragna -> CP bullet. ragna's footsies makes the ragna suggestion make some sense, bullet's 5B isn't quite as good but it's a good comparison to ragna's. but there are some other parts about bullet that make ragna not as close. she's much slower for one, sadeyo already mentioned this, but also bullet has a much worse anti-air and DP, so you have to generally play way more patiently. although arakune and lambda might not be similar characters at all, i feel one of the most important things is being used to not having a solid answer to being pressured, so playing a character without a DP definitely helps in the long run.

outside of ragna, i'd recommend platinum, maybe bang or noel. noel in particular fishes for hits going under the enemy's move with 3C, which bullet can do as well, and it's really valuable in some matchups where she gets zoned by normals rather than projectiles.

[Prototype909]

I thought this character would get good feedback after her debut but it doesn't seem like anyone is going to learn her. Izayoi is just too strong when you think about it. .

I'm sure there will be more activity once we get closer to release and Izayoi becomes more "normalized". People always are attracted to the hype new shiny things initially.

That and I'm sure it's the usual shit with people having "backlash" against the perceived fanservice character, the same thing happened with Makoto in CS1.

Or maybe people just think she's boring and don't want to play as her. I've seen a lot of complaints levied like "All Bullets do the same combo", etc.

[YukiBlue]

I lost interest in Bullet primarily because of her design. Seemed like mindless Fanservice, But then I grew up and just realised "Who gives a fuck" and took an interest in her. But then yeah, Every Bullet looks the same and she looks pretty Cut + Paste compared to everything else on offer so I went off again, and it hasn't changed since.

Maybe I'm ignorant, but meh. She seems boring as shit.

*Still won't stop me from learning her, though. Seriously.*

[Prototype909]

I still don't get the "They all do the same combo/pressure/ w/e the fuck" complaint though.

You do what's optimal, you do what works. This isn't a combo video. Sure we love the players that can entertain us and do the crazy combos that make our jaws drop, but at the end of the day if there are optimal combos that's generally what you're going to want to be doing...all the time. Reminds me of CS1 Ragna where 2/3 of the time you were just going for double Berial Edge combos because that was just what Ragna did in that game.

[Koopa_Klawz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuP2wYDcm2Y#t=0m57s

Can someone explain what happened here? Bullet didn't have meter to RC so how was she able go into D after her OH?

[Mightfo]

Hello Bullet forum!

This seemed like a fairly reasonable place to post this, but if I'm wrong I sincerely apologize. I'm a complete Blazblue scrub coming from a SF background, and I decided to officially invest some time into this series after seeing Bullet's reveal. I can be incredibly stubborn when it comes to sticking with characters I like, and (despite things I've heard complaints about, like her possibly exaggerated bust and weirdly "feral" neutral stance) I'm really digging her design/playstyle/voice acting/blah blah you get it. Anyways, I suppose what I'm wondering is...what should I be doing to best prepare for the transition to playing Bullet in CP? I've been training a bit with Tsubaki in CSE because I think she's also pretty cool, but if knowledge of another character's playstyle/execution/whatever would better aid in my future endeavors, I'm all ears. I realize this is a pretty dumb question, but I can see myself really getting into these games and I wish to train in the most efficient manner possible.

Oh yeah, and Merry Christmas to any of you who celebrate it!

responded in pm~

I thought this character would get good feedback after her debut but it doesn't seem like anyone is going to learn her. Izayoi is just too strong when you think about it. .

what do you mean by "izayoi is too strong"

also people wont know if theyll actually play her or not until they actually get to try her instead of just watching videos, lol

But then yeah, Every Bullet looks the same and she looks pretty Cut + Paste compared to everything else on offer so I went off again, and it hasn't changed since.

Maybe I'm ignorant, but meh. She seems boring as shit.

to be short: stop being fucking silly

more detailed:

1)early play of new characters is often simple, especially in situations where you need to win to keep playing which can discourage trying fancy shit constantly when you have stuff that works

2)a character having very effective and repeatable pressure isnt the same as being boring to play or any other accusations.

her neutral seems mostly based around movement, 2b, fireball, figuring out where to heat up, her great abare off of air to airs, interesting use of D, and probably using 3c's low profile depending on the matchup. i dont see that as worse than most of the other charas in this game or most fighting games.

her pressure is simply fantastic due to 5c being +, heat up Ds being +, d feints, jump cancel into j.c being terrifying and more legit than most other jump cancels in pressure(especially since D can be useful in beating AAs), and her safejump setups/d beating rolls/fireball setups make her oki pretty solid. it is not as fancy as certain litchi/rachel/tao stuff but..so what? i think some people are just tired of seeing players at fucking up at getting out of pressure or getting eventually opened up by overheads, but whatever. we're still seeing fucking early play of her and certainly not comprehensive play of her. you'll probably end up seeing some more crossups and TRMing and some adaptations to her pressure by defenders once people IB her stuff better, backdash more perhaps, or whatever, but it is still going to be 2D fighter pressure. pressure only gets so complicated, especially when a lot of players fall back on certain habits very heavily. i dont really see why it would be more boring than jin/ragna/haku/bang/noel/platinum/makoto/mu/other pressure, it is only more solid.

which makes me wonder how bullet pressure actually is in some aspects. how good is air D at beating AAs? is 2b 5c airtight, can it get backdashed? how + is 5c? is 2c good at beating players mashing backdash when they block 2b or whatever?

no moves change property with heat up besides drives, specials don't actually change either, just that you get the followups. 5C is the same always as far as i can tell, but it's also always really good..

Are you sure? Her fireball seems to go farther and such in heat up.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Mightfo

[YukiBlue]

I still don't get the "They all do the same combo/pressure/ w/e the fuck" complaint though.

You do what's optimal, you do what works. This isn't a combo video. Sure we love the players that can entertain us and do the crazy combos that make our jaws drop, but at the end of the day if there are optimal combos that's generally what you're going to want to be doing...all the time. Reminds me of CS1 Ragna where 2/3 of the time you were just going for double Berial Edge combos because that was just what Ragna did in that game.

Optimal is cool and all. But with Bullet I don't see the appeal. On paper a Rushdown Strike-Grappler sounds mad hype. But I've only seen a somewhat slow character with weird mixups and pressure that only begins to look awesome at Max Heat. She's just a bit too weird for the character she was designed to be.

I also think that Bullet looks ridiculously limited at Lvl 1. So that could be a giant factor regarding the "Same combos" argument. But that's a problem with the character, not the player. But even at Lvl 3 I'm seeing the same 3 moves on repeat and they just look ass. If you would of told me about this character in EX i would of been going batshit crazy for it. But upon watching a lot of Bullet I just got mad turned off about how barebones and stock she is at anything but Max.

Edited December 28, 2012 by YukiBlue

[BunniesFromHell]

Are you sure? Her fireball seems to go farther and such in heat up.

oh pffffffff yeah, i don't know how i forgot about that. i think i might've been thinking more "normals" than "moves" because of the 5C frames rumor thing. pretty sure that's the only one.

to answer some of the other stuff you listed:

-j.D beats AAs very easily only if done out of their range. if you were in range you'll just get hit every time.

-2B 5C is so not airtight that it doesn't combo (this may just be true on standing, but 2B hitting a croucher is unlikely unless it was a counterhit). 2B only combos into 5B, and i don't think that chain is airtight on block. 5B 5C definitely isn't. in fact, i'm pretty sure the only chains she has that are airtight are repeated 2A/5A.

-no one i play against backdashes after blocking 2B. i imagine 2B 2C would do alright for beating this, but no one really does it. something else to consider is that 2C is very unsafe on IB. the most common answer i see to bullet pressure is to patiently barrier her back out, and it's very effective. lots of people just mash out DP or reversal houtenjin or whatever. certain reversals make bullet's 5C pressure completely useless in some matchups (once they have meter or otherwise) because the risk just plain isn't worth it.

[SoWL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuP2wYDcm2Y#t=0m57s

Can someone explain what happened here? Bullet didn't have meter to RC so how was she able go into D after her OH?

Seems like she just held 5D and waited for the red crosshair. Guess you get it insanely fast with H2.

[Koopa_Klawz]

If 2B > 5C and 5B > 5C aren't true blockstrings, then can 2B/5B recover fast enough before a reversal comes out or is the recovery too long?

[Sadeyo]

Wall of text.

What?

Just read proto post to get an idea what I'm saying.

[BunniesFromHell]

If 2B > 5C and 5B > 5C aren't true blockstrings, then can 2B/5B recover fast enough before a reversal comes out or is the recovery too long?

i'm too scared to try this, i just don't do 2B and jump cancel 5B instead if i'm baiting them.

[YukiBlue]

The Great Wall of Dustloop

I'm sure you quoted me in there somewhere calling me out for saying Bullet is boring or whatever. But not even my computer can process such a feat of keyboard mastery.

Let's just say. Bullet is boring to watch, that turns people off. Obviously not everyone, just I'd dare and say it's not the minority.

Edited December 30, 2012 by YukiBlue

[SoWL]

Even though "Fun" and "Boring" are subjective, I can agree that many Bullets play the same. After all, her options are limited without Heat-Up, which means that there is less optimal stuff you do before you get it.

Actually, I think Bullet is going to be much more fun to play as than to watch. You can't really appreciate the value of various usage of Heat-Up until you do it. An observer might think: "Great, she finally landed D, now she can do some combos... Goddamn, why did she have to spend it on another D so the opponent could block it?", while the player might think something like, "Okay, great, I got H1, I wonder if I'll be able to get H2... Oh, no luck, but at least I'm safe thanks to H1 D's frame advantage". There are so many things to consider while playing her that I don't really care that it all comes down to doing the combos that seem similar to each other.

[Mightfo]

I'm sure you quoted me in there somewhere calling me out for saying Bullet is boring or whatever. But not even my computer can process such a feat of keyboard mastery.

Let's just say. Bullet is boring to watch, that turns people off. Obviously not everyone, just I'd dare and say it's not the minority.

its not really calling you out and most of the "wall" is just me trying to help the new guy :1

point is a lot of the boringness just comes from the players(early play, "conservative" defense/offense especially since her pressure is so repeatable) and her set of tools isnt more bland than other charas(similar size and bases on movement etc), so i think people are just being premature/silly. seeing bullet players in neutral vs some charas in particular is very interesting.

to answer some of the other stuff you listed:

-j.D beats AAs very easily only if done out of their range. if you were in range you'll just get hit every time.

-2B 5C is so not airtight that it doesn't combo (this may just be true on standing, but 2B hitting a croucher is unlikely unless it was a counterhit). 2B only combos into 5B, and i don't think that chain is airtight on block. 5B 5C definitely isn't. in fact, i'm pretty sure the only chains she has that are airtight are repeated 2A/5A.

-no one i play against backdashes after blocking 2B. i imagine 2B 2C would do alright for beating this, but no one really does it. something else to consider is that 2C is very unsafe on IB. the most common answer i see to bullet pressure is to patiently barrier her back out, and it's very effective. lots of people just mash out DP or reversal houtenjin or whatever. certain reversals make bullet's 5C pressure completely useless in some matchups (once they have meter or otherwise) because the risk just plain isn't worth it.

With the j.d thing i meant more of j.d beating anti airs due to not being head property(right?), not so much evading AAs itself, although delaying her air momentum helps

can 2c be cancelled into D? (Edit: nevermind, watched footage again and noticed it can, so that is useful when in heat up i suppose) does special cancelling it into 236a frametrap?(assuming you can)

how would reversals make 5c useless? i mean, 5c doesnt seem reactable. that'd have to be a guess, and 2b seems decent on block so stopping on it wouldnt be too big of a deal(or jumping forward and barrier blocking initially) not that different than reversaling between other frametrap chains, it is just this chain for her leads to more pressure. you just are going to want to expect DPs more often because of that. "the risk isnt plain worth it" could be said for tons of chains but people use them anyway.(especially mixed with airtight lows to punish dp buffering) the risk of a dragon punch being punished is higher than its reward anyway.(except for some supers of course)

does 3c go under any reversals, and how is it on block? i noticed it can be special cancelled on hit, can it be cancelled on block into D or specials?

Edited December 30, 2012 by Mightfo

[BunniesFromHell]

With the j.d thing i meant more of j.d beating anti airs due to not being head property(right?), not so much evading AAs itself, although delaying her air momentum helps

can 2c be cancelled into D? (Edit: nevermind, watched footage again and noticed it can, so that is useful when in heat up i suppose) does special cancelling it into 236a frametrap?(assuming you can)

how would reversals make 5c useless? i mean, 5c doesnt seem reactable. that'd have to be a guess, and 2b seems decent on block so stopping on it wouldnt be too big of a deal(or jumping forward and barrier blocking initially) not that different than reversaling between other frametrap chains, it is just this chain for her leads to more pressure. you just are going to want to expect DPs more often because of that. "the risk isnt plain worth it" could be said for tons of chains but people use them anyway.(especially mixed with airtight lows to punish dp buffering) the risk of a dragon punch being punished is higher than its reward anyway.(except for some supers of course)

does 3c go under any reversals, and how is it on block? i noticed it can be special cancelled on hit, can it be cancelled on block into D or specials?

not sure about it not being head property honestly, it seems like that doesn't matter. you're not invincible during a j.D so the anti-air usually just hits you if you try that.

2C is not special cancellable.

was mostly referring to GETB and houtenjin with the risk not being worth the reward. jin's 623C is much scarier than you might think it is as well. generally speaking, characters who even have the option are much better at dealing with pressure than she is, and swinging things into their favor tends to be a very big deal when the punish from bullet isn't very likely to do much damage. basically, if they're not in the corner and bullet doesn't have H2, they'll be playing the guessing game but they won't have much reason to be scared of guessing wrong.

3C isn't drive cancellable, but can be cancelled on block into specials. i'm pretty sure it's unpunishable but negative on normal block, punishable on IB. ideally you get the counterhit and hard knockdown and go into a combo from that. as for going under reversals, no, i can't think of any this would work for.

[Mightfo]

3C isn't drive cancellable, but can be cancelled on block into specials. i'm pretty sure it's unpunishable but negative on normal block, punishable on IB. ideally you get the counterhit and hard knockdown and go into a combo from that. as for going under reversals, no, i can't think of any this would work for.

i bet it would work on makoto's dp, especially since so many 2bs can be spaced to beat it

i should go test whether various reversals including supers like lambda calamity sword get beaten by litchi meaty 2b since it has similar low profile properties, would be relevant to bullet(more useful than bullet's as a meaty though because of real pressure options after, but if you know they're going to reversal or hit buttons..although, ideally a safejump would be better if you can set it up)

Edited December 31, 2012 by Mightfo

[SoWL]

Got another question for Bunnies: what do you think about charged Flint Shooter in blockstrings or neutral? I've only seen it being used in combos, which makes me wonder about its performance in other cases.

[BunniesFromHell]

Got another question for Bunnies: what do you think about charged Flint Shooter in blockstrings or neutral? I've only seen it being used in combos, which makes me wonder about its performance in other cases.

i thought about this too but i'm not really sure why you would bother. it'll create a gap in the string, and while positive it's difficult to take advantage of it. making a gap isn't an inherently bad thing but 5C does that anyway at less of a gap, fatal counter, and forward movement. cancelling out of 5C will probably get you punched or let them out unless they were going to patiently block and would've let you do something more ambiguous anyway. i've been meaning to try using it to prevent people from just laying on the floor but i doubt it works, just seems too slow.

[STenSatsu]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm19728509

Tones of cool stuff using CT, OD, Fatals, and all of the above together. Includes a 10k combo at the end. Her OD looks really good thanks to keeping level 2 and it seems like her little step throw is an easy way to get neutral OD activation mid-combo.

[SoWL]

Oh boy, guess what time it is! That's right, it's time to update the combo thread! In about an hour or so, that is.

Happy New Year, comrades, may it bring us lots of Bullet goodness.

[DanoftheDead]

Just got back from vacation, so a belated Happy New Year to everyone. Thanks for the awesome advice guys, it's really good to see that people are willing to help newbies out around here. On to a couple of specific replies...

With personal knowledge on multiple characters you're best off learning Ragna to some degree since their fighting could be thought of similar between all out nothing. They utilize every tool in combat and for the mot part always within aggression, their attacks swap between punches, kicks, and drive making them strongly similar with absurdly good hit boxes. The main difference between the two would be that Ragna has freedom of movement compared to Bullet dash...Not a dumb question if you ask me, I'll provide as much helpful knowledge as I get into the character but instead of misleading you I rather have my hands on the game and learn all that I could with her. Provide personal tactics and possibly footage of combat.

Up until now I've avoided putting any time into Ragna aside from his most basic trials simply because I'm not a huge fan of the character, but based on what you and the others are saying it seems like it would be a pretty practical investment. I'm pretty terrible with full-circle motions (never really had to use them all that much) so I may just grind some of those out with Tager. And definitely share anything you find as you become more familiar with the character, if you don't mind!

for what it's worth, i went CT noel -> CS arakune -> CS2 lambda -> EX ragna -> CP bullet. ragna's footsies makes the ragna suggestion make some sense, bullet's 5B isn't quite as good but it's a good comparison to ragna's. but there are some other parts about bullet that make ragna not as close. she's much slower for one, sadeyo already mentioned this, but also bullet has a much worse anti-air and DP, so you have to generally play way more patiently...

Hmmm, all good stuff to know, thanks! I've never been particularly fond of characters with DP-heavy playstyles, so if I put in some time with Ragna limiting my dependence on that move shouldn't be too difficult (even if it means I won't be playing him to his full potential or whatever, idc). I'll have to be careful not to become too used to his 5B, though... and maybe I'll do some work with Noel afterwards.

[Surf]

Looks like her 5C counts as a projectile since Azrael absorbed it when Keita tried to FC with it. Dont know if it was known before

[Prototype909]

That's an interesting property to have... I guess the explosion extending past the actual gauntlet explains why it's a projectile property though.

[SoWL]

Yeah, it's been known for a while, after Hakumen actually managed to cut it.

It's also mentioned in the data compilation thread, which exists specifically to tell people everything there is about Bullet's moves.

Edited January 8, 2013 by SoWL