[CP1.1] Makoto Nanaya's Gameplay Discussion - When's 2.0?

[Justice7541]

Can't you just autopilot DP Lander once you see the 214a~c hit?

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[Errol]

If you react to lander blow and press 2a, you will block it if it was lvl 2 and get pressure, and if it was lvl 3 you'll CH them. There is no variance in the timing of lvl 2 and lvl 3 coming out, it's too fast or it is too slow.

it's really just worse than resetting after lunatic upper and trapping with the overhead or with infinite rush (rc). lander being good is an illusion.

[Celerity]

If you react to lander blow and press 2a, you will block it if it was lvl 2 and get pressure, and if it was lvl 3 you'll CH them. There is no variance in the timing of lvl 2 and lvl 3 coming out, it's too fast or it is too slow.

it's really just worse than resetting after lunatic upper and trapping with the overhead or with infinite rush (rc). lander being good is an illusion.

That was the option select I was thinking of, but I figured it would be too difficult for mere mortals. Turns out it's not, huh?

[Errol]

it's worse if they have a dp... it will work to some degree but I don't think it is solid really and see absolutely no advantage to using it over traditional resetting from earlier games. specifically lander 3, which is 27 frames and can be reacted to. lander 2 might still be useful as a frame trap, but that's based on someone pressing a button because they think you won't follow up, not because they think you're going for lander 3... but i'd still tend to towards the other options. chopper, or gazer or rush with rc

[Celerity]

I don't see how Lander 3 specifically can be reacted to if it's only 8F slower than Lander 2. They can DP or mash like always, but they have to guess whether it's going to be lv2 or lv3. The only thing that gets around that is the block > 5A/2A option select. The timing on it is quite tight and I doubt there's anyone outside of Japan who's practiced it, but whatever. I understand your point of not wanting to rely on something that can be refuted.

[Errol]

you don't react to the difference between them, you react to the one and cover both, and I don't think it really takes training. I'm used to people reacting to tsubaki's overhead with a pretty good success rate. a lot of the time lander 3 is not even going to be 27 frames, but 28 or 29 frames.... And if you're not comfortable doing that, you can always just plain react to lander and DP EITHER one.

you can't react to lunatic upper>2a. there's no plausible advantage to lander 3, so it isn't used, and I doubt anyone practices against it in japan because makoto is rare, and because none of the makotos use it cause there are better options.

if you use lander 2, your pressure is clearly over, if you use lander 3 and were blocked, it's clear you're at an advantage. the difference between the two after the fact is also extremely visible. you shouldn't get CHs because people think your pressure is over and it isn't, and you shouldn't get to restart pressure because your pressure is over and they don't realize.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Errol

[Angry Guy of DE]

Its a more matchup dependant tool overall, its also a given that a non air-tight string can be DP'd if the person reacts in time.

Stating that it has no value is based on your experience and review of frame data, but I look at it more in the sense of not only the character but the person's tendencies. I wouldn't try this on a Ragna that will attempt to DP to get out of pressure because the person will always attempt to DP out of pressure.

I don't use it all that much because of the reason of startup and the threat of reversal DP, but against people that aren't willing to throw out a 2A or don't have the reactions to stop it I will use it. This might be that American mentality where people will try to 2A after blocking the last part of a string and not during a move with that amount of startup to take it with a grain of salt.

Its also not fair to compare it to a pressure string that you Rapid cancel to continue pressure, RC'ing almost anything will let you continue pressure...except maybe j.2C...that thing is just straight ass.

[Errol]

No. The point is that lander gives them something to react to. lunatic upper>2a can only be DP'd on a guess.

[HiagoX]

uhhhhhhhhh lander blow is ok just gimmicky like everything else related to asteroid vision

it's not reliable at all so you can't use it a lot

oh and lunatic upper stagger is pretty shitty I wouldn't ever do it unless they are too scared but even then it's easier to just use lander blow if they are that scared rofl

[Dark Ranger88]

Hmm I guess my playstyle just prefers using moves like Lander Blow 3. I just like using moves that are guaranteed pressure resets if your opponent blocks them. I was a big fan of Lightning Arrow > Dash 2A pressure resets in Extend too.

Whenever my opponent starts blocking, my strategy is to (Apply mixup then Reset pressure) xN. Right now this manifests itself as 2A >2B/6B/Throw/CT/More 2A > Stuff > Lander Blow > 2A etc.

Of course I bait DPs when I think they are coming. Of course I mix my pressure and blockstrings up every now and then. Sometimes I'll try to do stagger pressure (which I'm awful at). It's just that 2A Mixup > Lander Blow / Lightning Arrow serves as the default blockstring that I do.

What do you guys do for pressure/blockstrings then? Go into detail. Assume we know nothing. What's going through your head and what is your strategy when an opponent is blocking? What does non gimmicky offense look like? Even if I watch someone like Goro play, it's hard for me to understand what he's thinking during his pressure.

[Angry Guy of DE]

As far as strings go I've been making use of gatling 5B > 6A > and then either back to 5B or 6B for the overhead.

I stagger some strings like 5C >C depending on whether they IB the first 5C. Staggers are very unsafe when the opponent IB's the first hit but getting the 5CC counterhit allows easy corner carry where I can take advantage of orb oki.

Things I admit to not using much is Asteroid vision C with D follow-up and using CT in strings. I wish the D follow up to Asteroid vision C could be done by itself with j.2D as it can result in frame advantage depending on how close you are to the ground.

Watching high level play can offer good insight not only with combos but also on how they hitconfirm and make use of normals. Micro-dashes are used often to give 5B more range or used with 6A to let her get under the opponent when they try to airdash in. Also watch on how they predict bursts and use Rapid cancel, Jump cancelabe normals, or Shooting star's invincibility to punish it.

You need good fundamentals with Makoto and should avoid falling into a pattern during pressure as IB >DP or IB > back dash can let your opponent get away. The more you can do offline matches against other players the more you will understand about applying proper pressure.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Angry Guy of DE

[lasercakes]

Hi guys. My friends and I imported BBCP, but I don't have a PS3 so we pass it around each week. That means I can't test stuff.

I'd like to ask how tight certain strings and transitions are. I noticed I've gotten DPed and Tagered out of 5C/5CC 6B, but I don't how air tight other things are. How tight are transitions into 214A ~ C? How tight is 214A ~ CA?

Also, why is the match up forum dead around here? I have a general question about Tager. If I'm at -2, does that mean I'm getting grabbed by a 6 frame command grab if I try to jump since jump start up is 4 frames?

[Dark Ranger88]

I think 5CC > 214A~C is airtight except on instant block.

If they are DPing you after 5CC you can simply block after 5CC and punish their DP. If they are 720ing you after 5CC, then you can cancel into Asteroid Vision B/C.

You are invulnerable to throws even during the jump's startup frames, so in your instance you should not be getting grabbed.

Edit: Also if you are having trouble with a specific matchup you can simply ask here as some people do. Or you can post in the matchup threads asking for help (Something simple like, "Having real problems against Tager's ______. You guys got any strats?"

More experienced players probably aren't posting in the matchup threads because they aren't aware that you'd be interested in their opinion.

Double Edit: Wow...also matchup threads don't even exist.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Dark Ranger88

[Yazumatto]

Without delving into some really sad truths, you'd be better off asking for help here than wonder why there aren't any matchup threads.

In any case, your questions seem to be answered. There's a noticeable gap between 5CC > 6B so if your opponent is expecting it, they can mash reversal (or since your opponent is Tager, the guy is churning butter and mashing A).

Feel free to ask away. Someone should be able to answer your questions in a timely manner.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Yazumatto

[QisTopTier]

Is there anything Mak can do after a blocked or baited 4D from Noel?

And any tips for dealing with her 5B?

Edited December 5, 2013 by QisTopTier

[HiagoX]

Match-up threads don't exist because I'm not going to make over 20 placeholder threads in which no one will ever post. If you want to discuss a specific match-up, make the thread and provide actual discussion.

[Bibiquadium]

Without 50 meter to RC your unsafe stuff you are left with not much. It's all about doing stuff and analyzing the opponents reaction to it and counter it. I know for a fact that 236D beats most supers and every DPs except her own and Tsubaki's. You can also 214A~C~delay to fish a free CH Mars Chopper or Star Gazer, it's beauty is that no RC is required to combo off a CH Mars Chopper, but is needed if its blocked. 214A~B is clearly unsafe and you'll most likely get 3C'd by a DP masher and he won't even hit confirm it because its a fail option select. Now that we lost 5B JC we're stuck with 6A and its super small hitbox that might whiff if used too late in a blockstring. Have fun.

[Yazumatto]

To be fair, damn near everyone that had 5B JC lost it. That doesn't make that last line any less depressing when stuff is rattled off in quick succession, though. :/

Eventually, once your opponent is conditioned to your blockstrings, you'll be able to get away with using close 5B and 5CC in your blockstrings as opposed to using a risky AV followup.

[Celerity]

Is there anything Mak can do after a blocked or baited 4D from Noel?

And any tips for dealing with her 5B?

I haven't tested all the possibilities, but a few things I know after a blocked Noel 4D (or most of her drive moves):

Corona Upper beats most followups (all except 6D?), loses to no followup

Shooting Star beats 6D or no followup

You can activate OD, since the invuln will protect you from 6D/2D/d.236D etc. and the freeze will give you time to figure out an optimal punish. The downside to this is if she does something airtight like d.6A or d.5B, you will burst and look very stupid.

[StarGazer]

I don't want to write for a character that no one plays.

[Goldchampion200]

I play her.

Therefore said statement is false :3.

[Yazumatto]

Yeah, but who can actually "play" her? Goro slays Nu for a living but everyone over here complains about the Nu matchup for days. Things can be emulated but the effort value isn't worth it for most people.

Everybody want to be a squirrel but nobody wants to be a squirrel. You know what I'm sayin'?

Edited December 5, 2013 by Yazumatto

[Wild Candy]

Yeah, but who can actually "play" her?

Everybody want to be a squirrel but nobody wants to be a squirrel. You know what I'm sayin'?

I get it, their's a fine line between someone who claims to play Makoto but have the skills of a scrub, then their are people who really play Makoto and sweep the entire match once they get their opponent in the corner. But few people train that hard, and I admit, there were even times when I just wanted to give up and play a different character.

But playing Makoto really helps you improve as an overall better player, because of the fundamentals needed to properly play her. I know that by learning Makoto's it's really helped with my movement in neutral and blocking. So I think she's worth the trouble to learn at a competitive level.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Wild Candy

[Bibiquadium]

I don't want to write for a character that no one plays.

Thought the same.

[Zoular]

Hi all, before I get too hooked into her combos I wanted to get to grips with her normals/pressure more, is there a specific thread someone can point out for block strings (if Makoto has good ones) or are things pretty much jabs/frame traps/baits?

No sense learning just combos if I don't know how to land a hit

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