[CP1.1] Makoto Nanaya's Gameplay Discussion - When's 2.0?

[Wild Candy]

Hi all, before I get too hooked into her combos I wanted to get to grips with her normals/pressure more, is there a specific thread someone can point out for block strings (if Makoto has good ones) or are things pretty much jabs/frame traps/baits?

No sense learning just combos if I don't know how to land a hit

I believe these are the best bets

I'm sort of a scrub with Makoto, but I think I know enough where I can contribute.

True, Makoto thrives off of her frame traps and punishes much more then anything else, I would argue that her pressure game isn't to be trifled with. Her mix ups aren't something to write home about, but I wouldn't say their the worst in the entire game.

Makoto's main pressure tool I'm pretty sure is 2A. Using it continuously with Dashing, you can create near gapless pressure if your fast enough. From 2A, you can go into 2B for a low, 6B or a jump attack for a high, or attempt a tick throw. (Something Makoto actually does a decent job at.)

I think the main problems with her mix up options though is that their risky. 2B is kind've a telegraphed Low, being a little slower compared to some other low attacks, then while 6B is a rather fast and subtle standing overhead, it's follow up options on block are rather scarce.

Makoto's pressure is primarily focused on speed, needing to be fast and aggressive. Makoto needs to keep the foe from fighting back if she wants to win. Using her high mobility to try and break in without getting hit is usually the way to go. She can use 2A or 5B as a dash in, or use her J.C to try and come in from the air. She also has J.2C, but it's only real use is baiting Anti airs because it's negative on block, and lacks proper follow up options to combo from. (So it should be avoided.)

Lastly, while it's a little risky. Astroid Vision in conjunction with breaking and air attacks can be useful once you've conditioned your opponent to respect your pressure. (But be sure not abuse it, or use the attack follow ups like Star Gazer unless your doing a combo)

That's the best I got. Anyone correct me I I'm wrong or missed something.

[lasercakes]

2B is kind've a telegraphed Low, being a little slower compared to some other low attacks.

Uh, 2B is 9 frames. No one's reacting to that.

[Bibiquadium]

Sure.

[milesw]

Hi all, before I get too hooked into her combos I wanted to get to grips with her normals/pressure more, is there a specific thread someone can point out for block strings (if Makoto has good ones) or are things pretty much jabs/frame traps/baits?

No sense learning just combos if I don't know how to land a hit

[CP] Makoto Nanaya Combo Guide - Everything you absolutely need!

[CSE] Makoto Nanaya: OS, Trick, Gimmick, and Setup Guide

[CSE] Makoto Nanaya Guide

I believe these are the best bets

da hell?

get outta here zoular lol

[Bibiquadium]

I don't trust ripped Winnie the Pooh

[Zoular]

Thanks Wild Candy, that all helped.

@Lasercakes, 2B isn't 'telegraphed' but with Makoto's lack of module options it is just bound to happen? Or am I missing something, like her 6B is faster than I give credit for.

@Miles you supposed to be my boy, give me some support

[Yazumatto]

Well, the rule of thumb is to block low and react high against most characters. The dude is right in that you're not reacting to a 9 frame move but they're usually blocking low.

Condition them to block high and now you kinda have something. 2B is a necessity and adequate for what it needs to do.

[HiagoX]

2B is fast and -1 on block AND has P1 90 now. Probably one of her best moves right now along with her (most likely) buffed 6A.

[lasercakes]

The way it was said, "telegraphed", sounds to me like there's a visual cue in 2B that someone can react to and that 6B is faster and more subtle than it. I felt I had to say something, but I guess my response wasn't clear for anyone that would get confused by it. All experienced players know that the general rule is, block low until they jump or you see something that looks fishy. 6B in my limited experience seems like a decent overhead, but I wouldn't be surprised if one day I never got it to hit again on the people I always play against.

I won't have the PS3 for another week, and the only thing I can do in the mean time is scheme evil plans. First of all, what's the best damage I can get off DP and an immediate rapid?

If I was getting zoned, could I comet cannon the projectiles and rapid quickly enough to guarantee getting in?

Ok one more scrubby RC question. If I 2D3 (other moves could work too) someone who is landing and I RCed could I frame trap them with crush trigger since landing would increase their recovery?

Does lander blow become usable in OD?

What happens when you space counter an air attack?

Are there resets where someone flips out of a combo or a hit and I can 214A ~ A or 214A ~ B and have advantage? It seems less possible the more I think about it.

[HiagoX]

I won't have the PS3 for another week, and the only thing I can do in the mean time is scheme evil plans. First of all, what's the best damage I can get off DP and an immediate rapid?

If I was getting zoned, could I comet cannon the projectiles and rapid quickly enough to guarantee getting in?

Ok one more scrubby RC question. If I 2D3 (other moves could work too) someone who is landing and I RCed could I frame trap them with crush trigger since landing would increase their recovery?

Does lander blow become usable in OD?

What happens when you space counter an air attack?

Are there resets where someone flips out of a combo or a hit and I can 214A ~ A or 214A ~ B and have advantage? It seems less possible the more I think about it.

Not much.

lol

If you mean a meaty CT then yes you can but it's not a reliable thing since delayed techs and rolls exist.

Worst OD move because it wastes too much OD time.

Same as when you parry a ground attack.

You can force a tech on someone with 6B and do what you said, yes.

[Yazumatto]

You can combo into and after Lander Blow in OD but like Hiago said, it takes too much time. You'd only use it for style points.

If for some reason OD is active and you aren't comboing them, Lander Blow can keep them in blockstun until OD wears out but that does nothing in and of itself.

[lasercakes]

If you mean a meaty CT then yes you can but it's not a reliable thing since delayed techs and rolls exist.

Well I mean force them to barrier the 2D3. Recovery for 2D3 according to the wiki gives 20 frames of block stun (Does RC cancel all the recovery frames? lol). And because they block it in the air they also have to fall a little which should add to the recovery enough to make CT a frame trap, or that was my idea anyway.

[Dark Ranger88]

Hmm I don't see the need to 2D > Rapid > CT. You can already use CT after any normal other than 3C (so you can pull out the CT when your opponent least expects it), you just have to condition your opponent not to mash first.

Plus, why would you burn 75 meter on a setup that they can just barrier? Save that for a counter assault or just do Mars Chopper > RC > 2B to break through someone's guard.

Edit/Stupid: Dude they should just make Mars Chopper a stand alone special like they did Shooting Star. If they did I'd be MC > RC > 2Bing everyone.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Dark Ranger88

[MoneyD90]

Anyone have tips for fighting Jin? His block strings seem super safe and can something be done about his overhead at all? It seems too fast to mash out of it and I don't want to give him a free counter hit combo.

[MoneyD90]

Sooo... Going to guess that the strategy for fighting Jin is to counter pick with someone like Litchi?

[Celerity]

I would say Makoto has it easier against Jin pressure than most characters. You don't have to worry too much about Jin's standing overhead, since he can't combo from it without spending meter, and it's negative on block, giving you enough time to dash 2A afterwards to begin your pressure. Corona Upper is a real reversal in this matchup, since his 2B and 3C only go under it for a short time. 6A is great to stuff his jump cancels. You can also try to parry his long-distance pressure resets like 6D and 2D.

The most frustrating part of the matchup is neutral, but Makoto isn't helpless or anything. j.CC has a good angle that's difficult for Jin to cover without using his 623B, which you can bait with j.2C or air barrier. Once you get in, it's just a matter of capitalizing and baiting DPs, same as most matchups.

[MoneyD90]

Thanks for the tips. It's still a hard matchup but I think it's like that for most of the cast vs. Jin. To me it seems like Makoto is kind of like Hakumen in the sense of once her health gets low and I have OD ready my mind goes into "this dude better not let me get that 5b starter or it's his a**" lol.

[Wild Candy]

From what I understand, Jin can be a little tricky for some characters. I think Goro struggles against Jin's a little bit.

From my experience, you have to treat Jin a little bit like a Zoning character with all those stupid Projectiles. Just play patient, and wait for him to make a mistake. That way, you can dash in and start to pressure.

Be sure to watch out for his DP's, and also Barrier Canceling dashes can be really helpful for not taking damage from flying icicles.

I can't think of much else though, it's a fairly straight forward match up.

[MoneyD90]

Yeah. I think my main issue is I tend to treat Jin like a normal rush down fighter and eat random ice attacks... I do notice a lot of Jin players also love to try and get a jjumping overhead. So what's a decent anti-air combo to blow that up? I don't think the combo section really has anything for 6a starters.

[Yazumatto]

The combo threads do have 6A starter combos. They're just condensed.

Midscreen

~ 5B > 〆

~ 5B whiff > 5A > 6A > 〆

~ 5B whiff > 5B > 6A > 〆

~ falling j.C > j.B > 2D Lv1 > 5B > 6A > 〆*

Corner

~ 5B > j.B > dj.D > 5D > 236A

~ 5B whiff > 5A/5B > 6A > 2D > 2C > 236A~D > 6A > j.B > dj.D > 5D > 236A

Use the first one if they're about to hit the ground and use the others if they're counterhit from higher up. Your finisher depends on where you are. If you can follow up after j.B > dj.D and finish with orb oki, then you're in a pretty good spot.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Yazumatto

[HiagoX]

Her dp is not a good reversal against Jin; it gets easily low profiled. 6A doesn't do anything against a well spaced j.C. Trying to parry his 2D is risky - you're off better just IBing and punishing.

This matchup can be frustrating because you have a neutral disadvantage against him and he converts better than you. You really just need to space yourself well. Also be careful with his dps - you can use meaty 1A to option select wither of his dps.

[Arc Raizen]

Anyone have good recommendations for combos off of her Drive Fatals? I know they've never been good, but they still happen and I want to make the most of them.

So far I have for Cosmic Ray and Lightning Arrow in the Corner: ~ >6A > 5D > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.5D > 2D > 236236D (4820dmg) or Orb Oki instead of Particle Flare

And for midscreen Lightning Arrow I have: 214B/C~D > 66 (run) > 2B > 6A > 2D(1) > 5B > 6A > j.B > j.5D (2651dmg). Use it for corner carry because the most damage I can get with a CT doesn't seem worth it over the large corner carry.

For Fatal Normals I basically just do short and safe combos into Oki. Can't really find enough damage to ignore the oki off it.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Arc Raizen

[HiagoX]

Anyone have good recommendations for combos off of her Drive Fatals? I know they've never been good, but they still happen and I want to make the most of them.

So far I have for Cosmic Ray and Lightning Arrow in the Corner: ~ >6A > 5D > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.5D > 2D > 236236D (4820dmg) or Orb Oki instead of Particle Flare

And for midscreen Lightning Arrow I have: 214B/C~D > 66 (run) > 2B > 6A > 2D(1) > 5B > 6A > j.B > j.5D (2651dmg). Use it for corner carry because the most damage I can get with a CT doesn't seem worth it over the large corner carry.

For Fatal Normals I basically just do short and safe combos into Oki. Can't really find enough damage to ignore the oki off it.

You probably get more damage at the corner if you use "5D > dash 2C" instead of "5D > 214A~C".

As for midscreen 214B~D FC, you might be able to use 5CC instead of "2B > 6A" before 2D (1). Not sure if it works but you could try going for "5CC > 2D (2) > 5B > 6A > 2D" too.

You won't really get much more damage than usual from those starters because of how combo time works in this version.

[iBeK3n]

Hi, I don't know where's the best place to ask this but this thread seems like the most appropriate (pardon me if I'm wrong). My friend plays Makoto and I've tried her out. She seems quite strong, not top tier material, but definitely not bottom-low tier. Is there a reason for this? She seems to have reasonably safe moves, decent mixups, has enough options to close-in on zoners quickly, and deals on average nice damage. I'm just wondering how could she be considered the worst in the game when there are the likes of Bullet that simply seems to fight uphill all the time, with her lack of proper reversal, bad dash unless in heat-up state, and subpar supers . Anyone mind enlightening me on this matter?

[Dark Ranger88]

Makoto is solid, yes. But in a game where every character has something exceptionally good (or broken) about them, being solid in every category makes you the worst. Although she might be better than Bullet, her matchups with the rest of the cast are still bad (although they are manageable).

She is outranged by most of the cast.

She's not as mobile as Tao/Hazama/Valk.

Doesn't have the excellent defensive options that other characters like Ragna have (most people can just 2B her wakeup DP).

Her mixup is actually weak. You pretty much have to get your opponent to block a close range 2A to have decent mixup options (Valk/Rachel/Koko/Izayoi have way better mixup).

Has problems vs zoners too. Just because she can approach them quickly, it doesn't mean she can approach them safely. Also her short air dash combined with the fact that she has no long reaching air moves like Ragna or Mu's j.C makes approaching zoners even more difficult.

The only outstanding things Makoto has are good damage and excellent corner oki, but because of the above reasons it can be really difficult take advantage of this.