[CP1.1] Makoto Nanaya's Gameplay Discussion - When's 2.0?

[Dark Ranger88]

Also, I remember from another version of BB, that people used to use Meteor Dive to do the orb oki (something like: stuff > j5B > Corona Upper > Meteor Dive (delayed) > orb oki). Maybe we could use something like that?

 

I think that only worked becuase Meteor Dive didn't have any landing recovery.  Now it has like 9 frames of landing recovery...

[StarGazer]

I miss the good old days... #whensGroupsagain?

 

Skype

 

Also, I remember from another version of BB, that people used to use Meteor Dive to do the orb oki (something like: stuff > j5B > Corona Upper > Meteor Dive (delayed) > orb oki). Maybe we could use something like that?

 

Thats Extend, i think it still works here tho its extremly tight and not DP safe. The only true oki should be j.D 5D, the orb set up after it leave you with a lot of advantage.

[Yazumatto]

http://www.eightysixedclothing.com/blazblue-makoto/

You hear that? That's the sound of $20 dollars disappearing from your wallet.

[Wild Candy]

Can I get an invite to the skype group?

[swordsman09]

Too bad I'm too broke to buy it...

[Teutonicknight]

http://www.eightysixedclothing.com/blazblue-makoto/

You hear that? That's the sound of $20 dollars disappearing from your wallet.

Ordering three- right f**king NAO!!!

[Arc Raizen]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what does "Rules Breakers Take Control" have to do with Makoto? It ruins the shirt for me because it seems to be meaningless.

[Myoro]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what does "Rules Breakers Take Control" have to do with Makoto? It ruins the shirt for me because it seems to be meaningless.

 

"Rule breakers take control" is probably the new logo for Makoto players who, as a result of the nerfs, will be expected to break any rule they can and cheat at tourneys to win. It's a message of hope guyz.

[Teutonicknight]

That, or people are still griping about her CS2 form. :/ 

Possibly defecting to Sector Seven, breaking the moon, but most likely; being too damn good looking.

 

But whatevs, it has Makoto on it, IT'S MINE! :D

[swordsman09]

Rulebreakers Take Control is the theme of their Rulebreakers series. It's on Rachel's shirt too.

[Myoro]

Rulebreakers Take Control is the theme of their Rulebreakers series. It's on Rachel's shirt too.

 

And she's asking the Makoto what she can do for her. she's expecting favors in return for colluding with the Makoto, so I guess she's a "rulebreaker" too. That's my understanding of it anyway.

[Justice7541]

Just out of curiosity, does Makoto actually lose any combos as a result of j.B untech reduction? I don't really play Makoto at all as of CP so I have no idea if she had some godly j.B loop that carried fullscreen like in CS2, or something.

[Ried]

Yeah, she did. Almost all of her old combos are gone because of that and the CT nerf. She did have godlike j.B loops too, but they were mostly just for style. Either way; gone now. RIP.

[Wild Candy]

Um... Okay, I'm going to give some of my thoughts, feel free to agree or disagree, okay. 

 

After playing around with Makoto today, I feel like her combos got a little harder, but at the same time, I feel like they have a little more pay off in some ways. 

 

Like while the Makoto's damage output on mid screen combos went down, her corner carry is about the same if not a little better. The mid screen route I've been using goes along the lines of 5B > 5CC > 2Dlv2 > 5B > 6A > 214B > j.B > Corona Ender/j.D This'll actually get you a good distance across the screen. It also helps if you use the new revolver action with j.B > j.D to smack the opponent into the corner. 

 

Next, Makoto's combos in the corner have been increased and some new combo routes have also been added courtesy of the new 6B~C ground bounce property.  From here you have two options depending on your combo path. More often then not, your best option is go with 5B > 5C > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D > 6B~C > 5D 

 

After the 5D, you have two options. 

 

A.) Go for Oki

 

B.) Go for more damage via 5CC > Air Combo ender or 5CC > Particle Flare 

 

if you decide to go for Starter > 5CC > 5D, you sacrifice Oki, but you get some better damage routes. 

 

My personal favorite route is going with 5B > 5CC > 5D > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D > 6B~C > (Delay the C) > j.C > j.B > j.C > j.B > Corona Upper (This'll fetch you 3.9 K)

Or you can omit the air combo ender and cancel into Particle Flare right after 6B~C, and potentially get between 4.5 and 4.9 K depending on your timing with the Particle Flare hits.

 

Long story short, they sort've placed more emphasis on Makoto's game plan which is often considered "Carry them to the corner, then blow them up" and gave more reward for getting the foe in the corner. 

 

While I'm not going to deny that some of the Makoto nerfs did hurt a little, I'll also argue that the rewards she gained along with the overall balancing of the rest of the cast, makes things slightly easier for Makoto in the long run. 

 

Sorry for ranting, hopefully my insight wasn't too terrible. 

[Arc Raizen]

I don't see how she has gotten more reward for getting opponents into the corner. She lost damage on damn near every corner combo. Period. I have yet to find a suitable corner combo that does more damage than was possible pre-patch.

 

To compare to your 5B > 5CC > 5D corner combo, that starter in the corner pre-patch could hit 4222 or 4990 with Particle Flare (at least for the combo I used). Post-patch that combo starter hits 4179 or 4878 with Particle Flare (at least that's the best I've seen). The 5B > 6C combos are mostly unchanged, except for the fact that she lost the strongest one that leads into Oki (the Comet Cannon one). All CT combos (at least the 2C > CT ones) lose about 400 damage in the corner. 2A combos lose several hundred as well, and even corner throws lose damage. Luckily OD remains basically untouched and is her only real source of damage.

 

Sure, she might gain some options and corner carry mid-screen now, but when all her damage comes from the corner and said damage is now worse, I'd say those (very) slight buffs mid-screen are essentially useless. She went from high-risk to arguably high-reward to high-risk, low reward.

 

And this might be just be me, but I feel like she lost some openness in her gameplay and combos. So many other characters can do many different, varied and creative routes in combos, but now I feel like there's a strict order to how and what is put into Makoto's combos: you either follow it or you don't do combos. If you want Oki you have to end with 5D or 2D, that's it. High damage starts with 5B > 5CC > 5D,  j.B > j.D is used early or not at all, etc etc.

[ZuperKim]

Hi! I have been checking this thread time to time. After reading some of the recent posts about Makoto's 1.1 damage, I decided to create an account and share what I've found.
 
 
Meterless

4441 dmg - 6C starter
6C > 214AC > 236D > 2C > 2D > j.B~D > dash 6A~6B~C > 5D > dash 5CC > j.B > j.B > Corona Upper
5178 dmg if you cancel 5CC into Particle Flare

4292 dmg - 5B starter (Note: 6A~6B chain doesn't work with 5B starter)
5B~6C > 214AC > 236D > 2C > 2D > j.B~D > dash 6B~C > 5D > dash 5CC > j.B > j.B > Corona Upper
 
Tips:

• Dash up close before doing 6A~6B~C pick-up! It will make dash 5CC afterwards easier since the distance is as short as possible.
• You can replace 5CC with 6C if you're inconsistent with it, but you lose a bit of damage.
• Wait a bit before doing j.BD, if you jump B too early the D follow-up will whiff under the opponent. Super jumping helps!
• When you corner carry with 236D wallsplat, the 2C will be too slow after running up, replace it with 6A.

 

As many of us already know, 6A and 5CC pick-up doesn't work on sliding Jin/Valkenhayn.
Instead:
4299 dmg - 6C starter
6C > 214AC > 236D > 2C* > 2D > j.B~D > dash 6B~C > 5D > dash 6C > Corona Upper
* Note: after 236D, picking up Valkenhayn with 2C is very risky (Makotos 2C often crosses under Valk while he falls, thus dropping the combo). I wouldn't risk it, just go with 6A instead (or try the combo below).
 
I haven't tried these on the entire cast, but I can imagine dash 5CC being more difficult on smaller characters like Carl.
 
Sadly, 2C totally whiffs after 236D on Tager. But my old BnB variation works and deals more damage than just replacing the 2C in the previous combos with 6A (read below).
 
 
Reliable combos on Valkenhayn and Tager
 
(This variation doesn't work near the wall on Jin - 236D > j.B whiffs above him. His hurtbox lacks height for some reason.)
 
Valkenhayn - 4205 dmg (about 100 more damage than doing the previous combo with 6A instead of 2C)
6C > 214AC > 236D > j.BD* > dash 2C > 2D > 6B~C > 5D > dash 6C > Corona Upper
 
Tager - 4304 dmg
6C > 214AC > 236D > j.BD* > dash 2C > 2D > 6B~C > 5D > dash 5CC > j.B > j.B > Corona Upper
 
* You can run from a corner carry splat and hit j.BD in time, except not on really low wallsplats from max-range.
 
 
 
I hope these combos comes to use, or at least gave you ideas. I think these are near optimal combos. Please tell me if you find better ones.

[Kcin]

I don't know if it's possible but I agree with all 3 of you in some areas but it lead me to finding out new things that help to renew my faith a little more than it's been.

 

After playing around with Makoto today, I feel like her combos got a little harder, but at the same time, I feel like they have a little more pay off in some ways.

 

The difficulty of her combos I'm sure we all agree with and I miss the j.B loops because it gave us absolute control of which direction we want them flying from j.D without relying on the 2D(2 into 3) methods, or when it's unavailable.

 

I agree with the statement about the pay off being slightly better in my own ways, which is that with every LV3 fatal's special properties I've been able to utilize the 6B~C ground bounce

in order to corner carry 100% midscreen all being capable of ending with j.D > 5D orb oki with at least 3k damage on it, or I can go for Particle Flare ender to net 4.3k+ on them all as well

 

She went from high-risk to arguably high-reward to high-risk, low reward.

I feel like there's a strict order to how and what is put into Makoto's combos: you either follow it or you don't do combos.

 

This is true because my biggest problem is that there's very little room for variation in any of the routes I mentioned above outside of swapping one move for another to be ease of execution, or optimal and painfully precise for the best damage

 

A little something I came across on topic to this qoute:

if you confirm 5B > 5CC > 5D someone in the corner, you can still get 3k damage and safe 5D orb oki even with the smp at the end, but you must follow certain rules or it'll be bad end.

 > You must hit the 2nd 5D no later than the 10th in the combo

 > You can only use 1 other Drive(2D or 236D not both) before ending the combo with j.D > 5D > oki

 > As long as your starter is N and you follow the first two rules, you should still get oki at the end

 

Hi! I have been checking this thread time to time.

4441 dmg - 6C starter
6C > 214AC > 236D > 2C > 2D > j.B~D > dash 6A~6B~C > 5D > dash 5CC > j.B > j.B > Corona Upper
5178 dmg if you cancel 5CC into Particle Flare

I hope these combos comes to use, or at least gave you ideas.

Welcome to DL and thanks to your post, I fired up the game for the first time in about 5 days after utter despair.

 

I've played around and pushed the damage on this combo a smidge higher and helped me finally figure out a 5k 5B starter corner combo

 

6C > 214A~C > 236D > 2C > 2D > 6C > 214B j.B~j.D > 6B~C > 5D > 5CC > PF (5210 dmg)

 >The 2D > 6C and be swapped for 2D > 6A which is an easier option for 5174 dmg

 >You can start the combo with 5B, just do 6B into 5D at at the end (4991 w.6A / 5022 w.6C)

 

I'm tired and hungry, I'll either do a video of the FC stuff and other combos or type it all up at a later time.

 

Edit: Lander is still a bad move but check this at 100 meter:

 midscreen/corner FC Lander > CT > 20%OD > 2C > 214B~D > delayed 2D > air 623C~D > 214A~D > 236D > 623C~D > 632146D > 236236D (7204dmg)

 >Hardest part of the combo is the OD > 2C pickup. It's pretty much the parry 8k replaced with Lander and pushing the limits to get back to 100 heat for double super.

 > you can do shooting star or cosmic ray in either order, there's only a 3 dmg difference (7207 dmg)

[ZuperKim]

I've played around and pushed the damage on this combo a smidge higher and helped me finally figure out a 5k 5B starter corner combo

 

6C > 214A~C > 236D > 2C > 2D > 6C > 214B j.B~j.D > 6B~C > 5D > 5CC > PF (5210 dmg)

 >The 2D > 6C and be swapped for 2D > 6A which is an easier option for 5174 dmg

 >You can start the combo with 5B, just do 6B into 5D at at the end (4991 w.6A / 5022 w.6C)

 

Nice find. I'll try it more to see how consistent I can get with the 6C > 214B > j.BD part.

 

 

Edit:

I tried it some more, doing 5CC > j.B > j.B > Corona Upper at the end instead of Particle Flare. It does 4473 dmg which is also more damage than the combo I posted. However, the opponent seems to sometimes instantly tech after Meteor Dive follow-up. Removing a j.B should solve this, but the damage goes down to 4438, which is 3 less than my variation. (Wow, what a difference! Game deciding damage!)

 

Joking aside, I think yours is better since my variation has 6A pick-up which doesn't work on Jin and Valkenhayn. Also when going for PF ender, yours is better too, gotta squeeze out all the damage. Good stuff.

[swordsman09]

Has anyone even tried any OD stuff yet? We should at least know if that still does any noticeable damage.

 

I'll have to experiment more with your new find. What I've always done was this.

 

5B>6C>214A~C>236D>6A>2D>6B~C>5D into either a pick up or PF. It did a good 4k and almost 5k with PF. I could probably squeeze out more damage in little ways. What do you guys think?

[Ragnarok_F4]

OD combos seems alright to me. But that's because I didn't use j5D at all in those combos. However, the j5B > jump > OD > j623C that we use to start some of the OD combos is a bit tighter with the reduced untechable time of j5B, but is pretty consistent so is still good to go. The damage in OD is very similar than before. I've been using in matches some of the next combos (don't remember the damage):

 

On the corner:

 

5B>5CC>5D>OD(around 20%)>214A~C>236D>2C>214B~D>214D>623C~D>j623C~D>PF   more than 6k

5CC>5D>OD(around 20%)>214A~C>236D>2C>214B~D>214D>623C~D>j623C~D>2D>632146D>PF   more than 7k

5B>5C>6C>214A~C>236D>6A>2D>OD(around 60%)>5D>214D>2C>214B~D>623C~D>PF   more than 5k (almost 6k I think)

 

Midscreen:

 

from:

 

6A(anti-air) or 3C>2B>6A or 6B>5C>214A~C~B>5CC or something similar that leads to j5B early

 

to:

 

>j5B>jump cancel>OD (around 20%~30%)>j623C~D>66>2D>66>623C~D>5D>214D>2C>214B~D>PF   more than 5k

 

that last one has some variations depending on the starter, the distance to the corner or the direction you face after de 2D, so yeah......but I think all of them leads to something around 5k~5.5k.

[Kcin]

Also when going for PF ender, yours is better too

 

I've started using 5CC over 6C for almost all enders now because of reading earlier posts of people saying that the PF timing was easier even on long combos.

 

The second thing I've noticed is that 6C now has more pushback on hit than before which on long combos if you aren't close enough with the 6C the last hit of PF will completely whiff(as this was already an issue with plat and Mu),

and this is happening to me far too frequently that I'm now opting for 2C/6B/6BC/5CC > PF in all cases over 6C now because of this.

 

Has anyone even tried any OD stuff yet? We should at least know if that still does any noticeable damage.

 

I'll have to experiment more with your new find. What I've always done was this.

 

5B>6C>214A~C>236D>6A>2D>6B~C>5D into either a pick up or PF. It did a good 4k and almost 5k with PF. I could probably squeeze out more damage in little ways. What do you guys think?

 

For that combo swapping the 6A for 2C would be harder execution-wise but should get more damage. since you're going 5B straight to 6C you should be able tack on 6A to the 5BC > 5D while still getting PF or 5CC > DP for the finish.

 

Edit: swapping 6A for 2C, adding 6A to 6BC, and finishing with 5CC>j.CB>623C~D will hit for 4.2k on your combo

 

As far as OD goes, it seems completely untouched so you shouldn't need to alter them much for 1.1.

The only problem now with j.B's reduced untech time, jump cancel OD has a smaller window, demanding near perfect execution.

 

I have a list of rules and things to remember for using OD that I go by as I tend to improv when I don't convert in a preferred style:

 

> If you can astral the opponent and still have burst, 6A/5B/6B/6BC/5C/5CC can OD cancel into astral if you don't want to play neutral or hit them with 2/5A.

 

> A normal starter confirm can have 6 drive attacks total. After 3 non drive hits, subtract 1 drive attack for every 2~3 non drive hits used in the combo(corona upper does not count so treat it as 1 drive move for each).

  -Distortions do no factor to either category and usually don't disrupt the combo

Ex1: 5B>5CC(3Atks)>2D(2)(1 drive)>5B>6A>j.CB(super jump if near max range)>jc OD(4 more Atks so I remove 1 drive)>air623C~D>dash623C~D(3 Drives by now)>632146D>5D>214A~D(5 Drives)>PF finish (5754)

 

>I convert to OD off jump canceled j.B's, airborne 2D(3) setups (Ex:6A>2D(3)>OD>623C~D>etc...), midscreen 236D wall splats(like challenge mode does), and a normal starter that quickly gets to j.D or 5D in a corner

 

>Throw starters I must get to OD by 4 hits after the throw period, and would only risk using 5 drive attacks at max

 

>At high health try to do most of the combo before OD, at 1/2 and under, convert as quickly as possible and carry on from there

 

Honestly the best thing about the patch is that all OD combos should be good in 1.1

[Errol]

the reason 6c was used in CP 1.0 was because combos could extend long enough that they would tech between 5c and 5cc. if the nerfs don't lead to you getting combos to go that far, there would be no point in doing 6c anymore that I can think of. seems probable because of the jB>jD nerf. 

[ZuperKim]

I've started using 5CC over 6C for almost all enders now because of reading earlier posts of people saying that the PF timing was easier even on long combos.

 

The second thing I've noticed is that 6C now has more pushback on hit than before which on long combos if you aren't close enough with the 6C the last hit of PF will completely whiff(as this was already an issue with plat and Mu),

and this is happening to me far too frequently that I'm now opting for 2C/6B/6BC/5CC > PF in all cases over 6C now because of this.

 

I've noticed it too. I try to dash further than usual when doing 6C, seems to work.

 

I need to practice the 5CC pick-up a bit more, since I dash too short and whiff. lol

 

 

Guys, don't forget that 5CC pick-up doesn't work on Jin/Valkenhayn. I know 5B~6A can pick-up but it doesn't give enough hitstun in the end of a long combo, so it's possible to tech in-between 5B~6A.

The only option I know against Jin/Valk is to 6C into Corona Upper/Particle Flare.

[Teutonicknight]

Guys, don't forget that 5CC STILL doesn't work on Jin/Valkenhayn.

Fixed.

[Dark Ranger88]

I don't know why you guys are going so hard for combos, when neutral game is the crux of a good Makoto. Squeezing 8 more damage out of a combo doesn't matter if Mu is just going to CH 5C you to death or Rachel is going to zone you out all game.

 

As long as you're doing decent damage while pushing to the corner/getting into oki + pressure, your combos are fine.

 

I would much rather us share small neutral tidbits (e.g. "If that bitch Bang starts throwing D Nails everywhere, IB DP his ass so he thinks twice before chucking more nails at you.") than to just compare combo notes.

 

I kinda wish there was a sudden death mode/minigame where you and your opponent have 1HP and you both try to score the first hit in different scenarios (Match start position, Full Screen, Player one almost trapped in the corner, player 2 almost trapped in the corner, High above your opponent, your opponent high above you, after ground and air throw techs, right in front of your opponent with even frame advantage, etc). That way people could practice neutral and abare instead of learning intermittently during the few moments in a match where neutral is played.