[CP1.1] Makoto Nanaya's Gameplay Discussion - When's 2.0?

[Pharrox]

Yeah, for the sake of practice I've just been doing parry/lander>CT>OD>2C>214B~C>623C~D. I'm not really sure why I'm having problems with this, probably just going too fast. TK DP didn't give me half as much trouble as this.

[Arc Raizen]

Not really sure what can be said to help. I find it easy too, so it must be something random that just requires practice. If you keep dashing past time, maybe wait a few frames after you lander after 214B~D to give them time to fall lower and be more careful to do a really quick 6623C motion all in one go, rather than a separate dash and 623C input.

 

 

One thing that's really been bugging me for quite a long time, does anybody have any really useful Rapid Cancel combos? Back in CS2, for example, doing 5B>5CC>5D(2)>RC>2C>Shenanigans was almost always worth doing, but ever since CP came out, I've never really found any situations where using a Rapid has a positive result that's almost always worth going for (aside from bizarre near-death OD setups). It feels like such a waste to only use Rapids to safe your ass after you screw up or to do pressure (which is bad enough that Makoto NEEDS rapids to do decent high/low mixup pressure).

[Kcin]

One thing that's really been bugging me for quite a long time, does anybody have any really useful Rapid Cancel combos? Back in CS2, for example, doing 5B>5CC>5D(2)>RC>2C>Shenanigans was almost always worth doing, but ever since CP came out, I've never really found any situations where using a Rapid has a positive result that's almost always worth going for (aside from bizarre near-death OD setups).

My use for rapids are almost entirely for forced corner carry with oki intention, the bizzarre OD converts, and needing that tiny bit of extra damage to score a kill.

If I confirm a normal starter I would go into 214A~CC>RC 66>2D>6A>6BC>j.B>j.D>5D>etc... or same up till 6A>6B>236D>etc...(I need to reconfirm the alt combo). I end lunatic upper instantly to avoid killing combo time.

After a 6C into mars chopper, you can catch them with 2A and convert into some extra damage, push, or OD setup, although the timing is pretty tight. If that's too hard just rapid after the 214A~C, or use lv2 lander>RC or 236D>RC>5B>6A for the same results.

Another use would be after hitting 236D then dashing in if the screen isn't going to scroll enough for the wall splat on its own.

Lastly I can think of is after an air 623C~D>RC>j.B>623C~D for to squeeze that extra damage to kill, or if the dp is very early you could j.B>jc>j.D them instead.

Edit: I forgot one more.

If your back is to the corner 5B>5CC>5D>RC>66>2B>6A/5C>j.B>j.D>66>2B>6A>2D>etc...

5B>5CC>5D>RC>66>214A~C>236D>5B>6A>2D>6BC>j.CB>j.CB>623C~D

When you dash in you need to push the body a bit before you pick them up. What I do is in then 63214A~C to move them and input 214A~C as quick as possible.

[Shado_Onikkisu]

Not really sure what can be said to help. I find it easy too, so it must be something random that just requires practice. If you keep dashing past time, maybe wait a few frames after you lander after 214B~D to give them time to fall lower and be more careful to do a really quick 6623C motion all in one go, rather than a separate dash and 623C input.

 

 

One thing that's really been bugging me for quite a long time, does anybody have any really useful Rapid Cancel combos? Back in CS2, for example, doing 5B>5CC>5D(2)>RC>2C>Shenanigans was almost always worth doing, but ever since CP came out, I've never really found any situations where using a Rapid has a positive result that's almost always worth going for (aside from bizarre near-death OD setups). It feels like such a waste to only use Rapids to safe your ass after you screw up or to do pressure (which is bad enough that Makoto NEEDS rapids to do decent high/low mixup pressure).

 

I rarely have to use RC unless I'm comboing off of 214A~CCC, Lv. 2 Lander, or i messed up on my pressure. usually for her high/low mixup pressure, i throw in a 214A~A > 2D and try to lower down my use on 6B since people seem to look for it a lot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My use for rapids are almost entirely for forced corner carry with oki intention, the bizzarre OD converts, and needing that tiny bit of extra damage to score a kill.

If I confirm a normal starter I would go into 214A~CC>RC 66>2D>6A>6BC>j.B>j.D>5D>etc... or same up till 6A>6B>236D>etc...(I need to reconfirm the alt combo). I end lunatic upper instantly to avoid killing combo time.

After a 6C into mars chopper, you can catch them with 2A and convert into some extra damage, push, or OD setup, although the timing is pretty tight. If that's too hard just rapid after the 214A~C, or use lv2 lander>RC or 236D>RC>5B>6A for the same results.

Another use would be after hitting 236D then dashing in if the screen isn't going to scroll enough for the wall splat on its own.

Lastly I can think of is after an air 623C~D>RC>j.B>623C~D for to squeeze that extra damage to kill, or if the dp is very early you could j.B>jc>j.D them instead.

Edit: I forgot one more.

If your back is to the corner 5B>5CC>5D>RC>66>2B>6A/5C>j.B>j.D>66>2B>6A>2D>etc...

5B>5CC>5D>RC>66>214A~C>236D>5B>6A>2D>6BC>j.CB>j.CB>623C~D

When you dash in you need to push the body a bit before you pick them up. What I do is in then 63214A~C to move them and input 214A~C as quick as possible.

 

you do know that on 6A>6BC>j.B>j.D the j.B whiffs on certain characters right? Or are you doing something to make sure it hits everytime??? currently i whiff that part of the combo on skinny characters like Hazama or just plain weird hurt box characters like Mu or Hakumen.

[Kcin]

you do know that on 6A>6BC>j.B>j.D the j.B whiffs on certain characters right? Or are you doing something to make sure it hits everytime??? currently i whiff that part of the combo on skinny characters like Hazama or just plain weird hurt box characters like Mu or Hakumen.

I'm delaying the C on 6BC by pushing it after seeing/hearing the ground bounce, which causes them to get hit higher in the air making j.B hit on it's own.

When you 6BC as fast as possible you have to use j.CB which usually causes j.D to drop.

[Arc Raizen]

So BB at EVO 2014 is over, with only 1 confirmed Makoto player that I know of (and he lost) out of 500+ entrants, it basically confirms that she is not viable competitively at all.

 

Maybe this shows the devs that something needs to be done?

[MoneyD90]

Would be nice to see some decent changes but I think if any event would do that then Arc Revolution would be what they actually watch. Also, expect more nerfs.. Whoever is in charge of balance HATES Makoto and 10% Acorn taunt being an actual change says it's a fact.

[Arc Raizen]

I can only hope for hints of a patch before Arc Revo since thats still months away, but I do realize its more likely nothing until it. Even if they started a new patch, it wouldn't release until after Arc Revo.

 

And more nerfs? It's almost not possible. They gave her more tools that are about 90% useless and then nerfed one arguable best move. It can't get much worse unless they increase charge time on all D moves.

 

Edit: Whelp.....I was wrong. Very very very very happy I was wrong.

[Kenrou.Horo]

Dropped back in to check if Makoto got any buffs while I was away. Guess not.

I'm probably not gonna play Bbcp again until our favourite squirrel gets a buff. It's too much commitment to learn a new character, and it's so disheartening to play a character that gets repeatedly nerfed for god knows what reason.

[Dark Ranger88]

I'm delaying the C on 6BC by pushing it after seeing/hearing the ground bounce, which causes them to get hit higher in the air making j.B hit on it's own.

When you 6BC as fast as possible you have to use j.CB which usually causes j.D to drop.

 

Even on Kokonoe? I remember getting that to work on most people, but It was hella inconsistent against her so I stopped using that route.

 

Also, we should kind of be thankful that we don't need rapid cancel to combo at all. We get decent damage (at least 3k+) off of a high/low/or throw anywhere on screen thanks to 2D lvl 2. 

 

It'd be kinda nice to have an air DD though, since it's hard/impossible to end a midscreen combo or air confirm into PF to add damage.

[Kcin]

Even on Kokonoe? I remember getting that to work on most people, but It was hella inconsistent against her so I stopped using that route.

Yeah it's consistent with koko because I'm doing 6BC>j.B at a rhythm which I recently started using her as the bar on the timing I use for every character now.

The inconsistent thing with her is j.C>j.B drops when you don't delay the C because of her stupid hurtbox when it should hit everyone else, except maybe carl too.

[Shado_Onikkisu]

Soooooo....new patch coming in the Fall with Celica and Lambda. Any chances of.......you know......makoto getting buffed this time?  any.......ANY AT ALL? *cries in a corner*

[Dark Ranger88]

inb4 #MORENERFS T_T

 

What could they possibly do? ....Make her overhead 26 frames?...8 frame 2A?...Can only combo into j.D after a fatal starter?...Take away 2D lvl2 midscr-(*gasp*)......please no. Anything but that Arc!

[OmniSScythe]

You're scaring me man!

[Shado_Onikkisu]

"Take away 2D lvl2 midscr-"

*faints and falls on the floor*

[Yazumatto]

Don't ever ask the question "it can't possibly get any worse that this."

Expect to see Makoto's icon replaced by Celica on the character select screen by this fall with the explanation that there's too many characters in the game. Gotta make space for four different Noels and #secondwaifu of course. Makoto gets "off-screened" with ten-seconds of dialogue explaining her demise, of course.

You gotta remain stoic in order to play this character. It's been bad for more than three years. You just gotta get used to it.

[Myoro]

So I have a request of the Makoto players here. My friend has CSE for the PSP, and wants to go toe to toe with me. He mains Makoto (and subs Ragna) and I was wondering if there was anyone kind enough to give me some high level Neutral tricks, combos, blockstrings, Oki, or set-ups that work both in CP and CSE so he can train on his own access those skills when we fight.

 

Many Thanks for any consideration or posts ^_^

[StarGazer]

JBBS posts are flooding with "Makoto is trash, buff her already", its like you can go and search the tier list thread for the word Makoto and you'll find 200 result while Ragna name is only being mentioned for once or twice. Its somewhat the opposite here in dustloop but lel whatever. With that being said there is a high chance now that Makoto will receive good changes because CP2 changes is gonna be big unlike CP1.1.

 

Makoto current status is pretty sad, she offers little to no niche to the cast, awfully boring, frustrating to play, pretty weak, obviously outpowered by characters of her same class. I guess this is the result of her being ignored all these games starting to stack now. Barely No one takes the game seriously plays her now, she is a bad character that you don't want to have in your game so i'm almost sure ASW have something for her, CP1.1 changes was placeholder so they can look into her better in the next game (either that or thats what ppl get for calling a bad character "she is still good").

 

 

So I have a request of the Makoto players here. My friend has CSE for the PSP, and wants to go toe to toe with me. He mains Makoto (and subs Ragna) and I was wondering if there was anyone kind enough to give me some high level Neutral tricks, combos, blockstrings, Oki, or set-ups that work both in CP and CSE so he can train on his own access those skills when we fight.

 

Many Thanks for any consideration or posts ^_^

 

This might work, especially for BBCSE. (The tables and format are ruined after the dustloop update but the content are still ok)

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4320-cse-makoto-nanaya-guide/

[TDVoid]

I'm completely new to BB (and playing fighting games in general, although I'm familiar with the terminology) and I want to learn how to play Makoto. Yes, I realize she is basically bottom of the bottom tier, but I'm fine with that. The other characters I'm interested in (Arakune, Rachel, maybe Carl) look a lot less beginner friendly at any rate, so I'll postpone practicing those until I have at least a basic grasp of game mechanics, execution etc.

Anyway, I'd be really grateful if you guys could help me get started a bit. Like, some basic blockstrings/mixup options. The easiest solid hitconfirms and most essential BnB combos. Stuff like that.

I did of course take a look at the two combo guide/list threads, but I'm still kind of lost. For one I'm not completely sure which combos from the "combo guide" thread are still functional (it was last updated before the 1.1 patch which, as far as I know, changed some stuff about her j.B hitstun or something). As far as the "combo list" is concerned, it lists a ton of different combos off the same starters with no explanation as to what their individual benefits are. That is probably fine for experienced players who can easily tell that combo A deals more damage while combo B leads to a corner carry and combo C sets up some hard knockdown oki shenanigans or something, but I'm just a lowly noob. When I'm confronted with like 20 combos off a 5B, I have no idea which one to choose or how to adapt my combos based on positioning/meter/life/other circumstances. And of course, most of those combos are still way beyond me in terms of execution (I can do stuff like 2A 5B 5CC 214A~CCCCC pretty consistently, but beyond that it gets a bit iffy) - I'll get there eventually, but for now I need smaller building blocks for my gameplay.

Any advice is much appreciated!

[Ragnarok_F4]

The basic idea with her is to rush your opponent, and be as close to them as possible. However her midscreen game is not that good, she is very comfortable in the corner though, that's where you can deal good damage with her (4k-5k, meterless-with meter). Also her overdrive works pretty well in the corner.

 

Now, her A attacks are quite fast, but it prorates your combos a lot (or drop them), so if you want damage you have to use other buttons.

 

In midscreen, you can do:

 

1) 5B > 5CC > 214A~CCCCC (real easy, consistent, obviously not the best, but don't worry about it, use it)

2) 5B > 5CC > 5D(3) (simple, but has a lot of corner carry, your opponent is gonna end near the corner. Also, it is the first part of some of your corner combos, this one is important)

3) 5B > 5C > 6C > 214A~C~A (it leaves your opponent near you, not much damage, but easy)

4) 5B > 5C > 6C > 214A~C > 236D(3) (this one is really important too, it has a lot of corner carry too, in the corner you can follow this)

 

You can start all this combos with 2B instead of 5B too.

 

Use 2 or 4 when you now that your opponent is gonna end in the corner (try them on the lab). Use 1 or 3 otherwise (there are better options though). Go with these 4 for now on midscreen, I'll leave you better combos below, but they require more practice or certain starters.

 

(on crouched opponent) 5B > 5CC > 6B > 5C > 214A~C~B > 5CC > j5B > j5C > j5B > j623C~D(3) (great, also 6B is an overhead, you can start from there too)

5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214B~jB > relaunch > j5B > j5B > j623C~D(3) (one of her best midscreen combos, meterless, good damage, with some corner carry variations)

3C > 2B > 6A > j5B > j5C > j5B > j623C~D(3) (bad starter, but if you use you can do this or some OD combos, you can start from 6A(anti-air) also)

 

Near the Corner:

 

For now learn this 2 that are extensions from combos 2 and 4 from before:

 

5) 5B > 5CC > 5D(3) > 214A~C > 236D(3) > 6A > 2D(3) > 5B > 6A > j5B > j5C > j5B > j623C~D(3) (this is not optimal, but is not too difficult, a good start)

6) 5B > 5C > 6C > 214A~C > 236D(3) > 6A > 2D(3) > 6B > 5C > 5D(3) > 66 > 236A (the last part is important for oki)

 

You can also vary these combos a bit:

 

5.b) 5B > 5CC > 5D(3) > 214A~C > 236D(3) > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 236A~D > 66 > 5CC > j5B > j5B > j623C~D(3) (the orb part is really tricky, but it does more damage than the previous version, use this instead of the other one, but master combo 5 first since it is easier and more consistent).

6.b) 5B > 5C > 6C > 214A~C > 236D(3) > 6A > 2D(3) > 6B > 5C > 5D(3) > 66 > 5CC > j5B > j5C > j5B > j623C~D(3) (variation of combo 6, your are sacrificing oki, but you will land more damage, both combos are really useful so use them accordingly)

 

For more stuff you can use this as reference too, is a compilation of combos I usually use in CP1.1 (it goes from easy stuff, to more advanced stuff):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBk2K4AcA-M

 

If you have trouble with something, ask here to help you out .

[TDVoid]

Thanks a lot! I'll be sure to try these out when I get back home.

[Arc Raizen]

So why is it that Comet Cannon doesn't connect with the final 6th hit unless you are standing directly on top of the opponent? The difference between "directly on top of them" and "a few inches away" gives the enough time to get hit by your punch, fly backwards, and tech before the actual ball hits them. A bit of a minor annoyance, but still. I only noticed when I was just randomly testing Comet Cannon in midscreen to see if it could ever actually be made useful or have good resets or whatnot (spoilers, not really). If you do something like 2C > 214B > j.C |> 236A~D or 2C > 214A~A > 6A > 236A~D and they touch the ground before the 236A~D hits, you'll always miss the last hit. But if you do 2C > 214B > j.CB |> 236A~D and hit them in the air, it works fine. Again, very minor because it's basically useless anyway, but still. What luck, this squirrel.

 

 

Also as a PSA, I have been making minor additions to my combo list in the combo thread now and again. If you haven't looked at it since I originally posted it shortly after the patches release, it might contain something new for you to play with. Maybe not the best stuff, but at worst stuff you might not have seen or thought of to springboard new stuff off of. And if anyone has anything I don't have, I'll gladly add it and credit you. If you haven't seen my combo list, its one the last posts in the combo thread.

[Pharrox]

So, it looks like the parry input has changed to 214D now. Interesting change since it means it'll be easier to do in awkward situations as well as allow it able to be special canceled into. I didn't start playing until the end of CS2, so for any veterans from the CS1 days, did canceling into parry have any useful applications (other than parry loop shenanigans) such as canceling unsafe moves into parry to bait reversals or anything?

[swordsman09]

So parry is 214D now? That's interesting. It's not that bad so far. I would like to see what cancelling into a parry could do for us now since I never was able to experience parry looping as well. Hopefully it's not useless.

[StarGazer]

After all these years of parry practice they change it into a normal input? Why do they want to kill every single niche thing in Makoto? I... I.... im... I... what?!

 

Current parry is so awesome i just discovered recently that you can use it as a break which allows you to open some new cross unders like the first set up in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehZkQAJww5M