[CP] Izayoi Gameplay Discussion - Tobe! Gandamu!

[Angel-tastic]

Hopefully they make it so that GA5C doesn't whiff every time you use it. Also 5B jump cancel *fingers crossed*

I feel like the reason for the short range on GA 5C is so it's harder to do combos without any stocks and encourage players to start combos with Valkyrie Astraea.

If 5C hit as far as in normal mode, then you could do mid-screen stuff like [j.C - 5C - CS Gamma - 214A - 5C - j.BC - j.BC - j.236C], which would actually be pretty cool, but I think that's probably what the devs had in mind.

5B jump cancel would be nice too. I know I've tried to do that before when I hit an aerial opponent who is too far away for 5C, and then remembered that I can't do that, lol.

I wonder if the angled air-dash is optional or not. I like the [iAD - j.B - j.C] cross-up, so I hope that still works. It would be interesting to be able to IAD into 2B, though.

I'm a bit sad that D Sonic Saber is more expensive now. I felt like that was Izayoi's best setup, although I guess airdash upgrades could help get in without it, and it's still cheap enough to use once in a block-string I think.

The cheaper D Mirage Thruster could let us get in more inexpensively with [236A - 214D] also, so I guess it balances out.

So the top entry on my Izayoi wishlist that I think would be really cool, is if you could special cancel 6B into CS Gamma (with appropriate changes to frame data to make it combo). That would be so legit.

[Justice7541]

So now I'm trying to get back into this character since I'm all hype for rebalances. I need some legit ambiguous mixups for GA; so far the best one I've got is 236D > long dash j.A > j.B (overhead) or j.C (whiff) to 2A (low) which is kinda hard to react to and has average prorate. There's a timing differential of about 5 frames though so I'm trying to figure out of there's anything legit unreactable.

Also, why am I still seeing people doing Noir > D teleport loops when Strike Fall relaunch does more damage and doesn't screw up corner push?

[crimsonstardust]

Cause noir d teleport combos just look cool? I dunno I did them the first week I was playing till I found more practical things, though off of 623B/C it's not bad to end the round with.

For 236D mix ups its not always air tight and some people like to chicken block or jump out of mix ups, I usually will toss in j.B+C into the mix to scare my opponents from jumping. It's kinda expensive but you can probably throw in 214D if you see D sonic sabre catch and go for a high/low/throw mix up. What you mentioned plus some stuff I added is all you really can do, though I normally will use jB+C when I'm going for fake highs and go lows to catch people jumping cause you land fast enough to go low anyway if they didn't jump. If you know your opponent is respecting your pressure you can just do for a hover dash overhead again.

Some stuff I do is I might do like hover dash jA tic throw or do a normal sonic sabre and D teleport right away, it doesn't hit the damage scaling hard like a D version would so it is another way to open people up.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the one about I mentioned with using jA in to sonic sabre wanna be careful with cause the sonic sabre is what keeps that approach safe, space it wrong and your opponent can mash out of it.

Edited February 2, 2014 by crimsonstardust

[Dark Ranger88]

Because the Noir D teleport loops look rad.

Whenever I hit someone with IOH Noir and start carrying them to the top of the screen with teleports my brother and friends start acting like idiots in the background.

That feeling you get when a spectator says, "Woah" during one of your combos...It can't be beaten.

Also one mixup I do is:

236D > 66 > Airdash > j.B > j.C > j.236C (try to get Noir as low to the ground as possible)

236D > 66 > Airdash > j.B > j.C > (land) 2B/2A

Edit: Also you have to try this mixup, it looks so badass: 236D > 66 > j.214D > throw or low

Edited February 2, 2014 by Dark Ranger88

[NecroTheReaper]

This change to her air dashes she might get has reinforced my desire to play this character xD what jCable moves does she have on block, cuz if its at least 2 it seems like her pressure could become somewhat Valk-esque with either quick high's or difficult to see lows.

[crimsonstardust]

The only ones are 5C (GA) 5A and 3C (normal), so basically 2 but 5A will miss on most crouching opponents. Unless we get footage of what the dashes are gonna be like its hard to say what sort of new mix ups she could potentially do.

[Dark Ranger88]

They said they would be changing her revolver action table. That could mean we might get something else to be jump cancelable on block. Cross your fingers and send the devs bribe money.

[Surf]

I'm not expecting another one jump on block but the gats that I want to see are

5B > 2B

2B > NM 6C

NM 5C > 6B

All 3 would mostly benefit normal mode. Which could use a little more versatility. Her Gain Art gats are fine mostly.

Thinking about her movement I wonder if she'll be able to jump cancel 5C with a 7 jump, then 66 hover in extremely quickly and j.B before she hits the ground from the descent. Or well maybe land and do 2A/B. That'd be pretty damn gdlk

[NecroTheReaper]

Hasnt she always had good mixup though? Honestly, as odd as it sounds, I'd like GA 2C to be jump cancellable on block. Be a real good risk-reward factor for slow startup, but the safe mixup... though a jcable +5 move probably wouldn't happen xD

[Surf]

GA is ok but NM leaves a lot to be desired. I wouldn't even call NM pressure "mixup". I don't really have a word for it.

[NecroTheReaper]

I wouldn't think of NM as where you should be mixing up though. At the end of a NM combo, all that's been accomplished is getting stocks really. No oki, no damage, maybe a bit of heat, but still. Though... I have 0 experience with her and probably cant start learning her for a few days.

[Dark Ranger88]

Normal mode can do a surprising amount of damage because her combo rate is higher in normal mode.

Lol I don't really try to mix up in normal mode really. I just try to pressure them into blocking as many sonic sabres and specials as I can.

[Surf]

I wouldn't think of NM as where you should be mixing up though. At the end of a NM combo, all that's been accomplished is getting stocks really. No oki, no damage, maybe a bit of heat, but still. Though... I have 0 experience with her and probably cant start learning her for a few days.

Hm.

I'd say it's best to actually know/play a character before you say stuff like that.

She has j.CD oki in NM and gets about 3k+ damage off almost anything that isn't an S starter. NM is moreso footsies/zoning than anything else while GA is straight offensive in most cases. A lot of people seem to be turned off from NM because her mixup isn't really there and her pressure/combos are little hard to handle when your doing the more advanced stuff. Im finding maximizing the potential in NM to be the hardest thing about this character. Both modes are good. It's just easier to visually see how much better GA is to NM. But that's not to say NM's only use is getting stars. She's capable of a lot more in it. It's just people don't take the time out to learn

Edited February 2, 2014 by Surf

[crimsonstardust]

Hasnt she always had good mixup though? Honestly, as odd as it sounds, I'd like GA 2C to be jump cancellable on block. Be a real good risk-reward factor for slow startup, but the safe mixup... though a jcable +5 move probably wouldn't happen xD

Well 2C isn't as risky if your using it as a meaty against someone's wake up after a strike fall, it can gatling into 6C if you want to keep yourself safe so its not that risk.

GA is ok but NM leaves a lot to be desired. I wouldn't even call NM pressure "mixup". I don't really have a word for it.

Indeed, I dunno what I'd call it either...

I wouldn't think of NM as where you should be mixing up though. At the end of a NM combo, all that's been accomplished is getting stocks really. No oki, no damage, maybe a bit of heat, but still. Though... I have 0 experience with her and probably cant start learning her for a few days.

That is true but I personally think when it comes to a neutral situation I personally feel like Normal mode is actually better at it just cause you can dash and stop yourself with barrier runs and its much easier to manage footsies with. I personally have a harder time playing neutral during GA cause its so easy to swat her out of the air if your not careful with your approaches, this is where it feels like problem solving to get in for me, though I usually stay in GA mode when I'm stocked up cause that's where all the easy damage is.

I just realized 6A doesn't guard against low attacks... I think that's another thing I'd like to see being changed seeing how its already a tough tool to utilize.

[Justice7541]

Yeah, one of the nice things about NM is that you are constantly putting the opponent at risk of giving you stocks if they respect your pressure so it's actually quite easy to bait out mashing and the like. I hit 6C counterhit off 5C so much that sometimes I have to stop and be like "dude, that's hit you like the last ten times I did it, why are you mashing" and people will just be like "dude I don't want to let you just build stocks so I'm trying to get out".

Also GA can be awkward but it's really not that bad, not compared to Aigis movement in P4A. Aigis had some dumb shit but it was really hard to footsies with. Izayoi's is much easier to manage because:

1) Dashing doesn't burn your vital resource. Aigis's Orgia dash was really annoying to manage because it took off a big chunk at the start of each dash, so if you tried to stagger dash on reaction to projectiles and pokes you'd just burn through all your Orgia immediately.

2) Izayoi can still walk.

3) Izayoi has better pokes so she doesn't have to get quite as close as Aigis did. Aigis had pretty terrible range on her normals so you pretty much had to dash in to start a combo if you weren't point-blank.

One thing I've found that helps for GA rushdown is not actually switch to it until you're about half a screen away. Being in NM scares people because you have the potential to keep building more stocks if they poke carelessly so as long as you're not being super predictable about it you can mode switch at mid-range pretty easily and not get punished/pressured for it.

[Dark Ranger88]

In GA the A sonic sabre > 214D teleport is so threatening that most people will just jump on reaction to anything you do. When I get into GA I just do a jumping Sonic sabre to see how they react.

If they are jumpy then you can 66 > airthrow, or 623B them out of the air.

If they sit on the ground and block Sonic Saber then just teleport in and start pressure.

Also her backdash is so hard to catch in Gain Art. It's much easier to run away in GA, so I feel more comfortable than in Normal Mode.

[crimsonstardust]

In GA the A sonic sabre > 214D teleport is so threatening that most people will just jump on reaction to anything you do. When I get into GA I just do a jumping Sonic sabre to see how they react.

If they are jumpy then you can 66 > airthrow, or 623B them out of the air.

If they sit on the ground and block Sonic Saber then just teleport in and start pressure.

This doesn't quite work as well in some matches, Relius/Carl can keep the puppet in front and eat up the projectile and Azrael just beats it clean with Growler and gets a free projectile from that approach. Its really spacing dependent cause if they know its coming they could just mash 2A or something and stop the approach and the sonic sabre will disappear, personally I try to make sure they are in block stun or position it from a hover dash so that even if they are mashing the sonic sabre would hit first before Izayoi comes out of the teleport.

[Justice7541]

This doesn't quite work as well in some matches, Relius/Carl can keep the puppet in front and eat up the projectile and Azrael just beats it clean with Growler and gets a free projectile from that approach. Its really spacing dependent cause if they know its coming they could just mash 2A or something and stop the approach and the sonic sabre will disappear, personally I try to make sure they are in block stun or position it from a hover dash so that even if they are mashing the sonic sabre would hit first before Izayoi comes out of the teleport.

Well it depends on where you're doing it from. Relius isn't likely to just throw out a slow doll move on your approach and Azrael's Growler is super long recovery so if he just throws it out randomly you can punish him hard.

Also I found out that if you do Noir > D teleport > j.B JC j.A, you're in perfect position for an airthrow if they neutral tech. Makes for some funny resets if you do two Noir loops to take them off the top of the screen so they can't actually see the throw. Only works off a neutral tech though and you can't see which tech they're doing either. Trying to figure out if there is a catchall punish for forward and back techs.

[crimsonstardust]

Well it depends on where you're doing it from. Relius isn't likely to just throw out a slow doll move on your approach and Azrael's Growler is super long recovery so if he just throws it out randomly you can punish him hard.

Well for Azrael, most players can growler the projectile on reaction (of course this is spacing dependent also) and during the absorb frames he's invincible and its pretty hard to punish him as he recovers, most Azrael players are probably not gonna do it randomly just cause like you said its easy to punish if they just do it randomly.

[Justice7541]

Well you don't really need to punish him, you can just meaty him as he's coming out of Growler since you're right in his face anyway. The best he can do is another Growler and if you bait that then he's pretty much done.

[crimsonstardust]

I'm seeing some Japanese players as of late going a little nuts with teleports during pressure, personally I don't like that cause you can use audio cues to tell where she's gonna go and mash her out of it. Any thoughts on using teleports like that?

[Seventh-Prodigy]

I don't see much of a problem. Sure there may be some audio cue, but I'd say it'd take a damn good reaction speed to punish the teleport just from the sound clip -- assuming you're not being obvious with it.

More specifically, what teleport? 214B? 214C feels like it should be relatively safe and I'm not sure why anyone would use 214A during pressure.

[crimsonstardust]

I think it might be 214B. I guess depending on the spacing you can make it a little more safe. I think I'm gonna mess with it tonight when I play some casuals locally.

[Dark Ranger88]

Well the startup looks somewhat similar to 236B. If you've conditioned your opponent to expect 236B, then doing the teleport is similar to doing stance cancel > 5B/dash 2A. Plus most people's reactions to a crossup is to switch their blocking first. This can delay their reaction and cause them to get counterhit or hit out of their jump startup.

Also, Izayoi's 214B can crossup at different distances, meaning the opponent has to think about which move they have to use to punish the teleport. You could be outside of their 2A range and counterhit them with 5B.

And you can get hit after doing 214C. It has the most recovery out of all the teleports, so Ragna can dash > 5B you. Another very weird thing I noticed about the teleports: You can cancel 214C into the 236/623 series very early compared to when it lets you jump or do normals. Has anyone else noticed this?

[crimsonstardust]

No I haven't before never knew that cause the only time I use 214C is for some corner combo stuff but never noticed before. I'll mess with that also tonight.