[CP] Izayoi Gameplay Discussion - Tobe! Gandamu!

[crimsonstardust]

So what do you all think is the best thing to do after the normal mode j.C -> j.D oki against characters with DPs?

If you know they are DP happy then you have to take that into account and just punish accordingly. Its gonna really come down to how much your opponent is going to disrespect your oki set up. I don't have BB in front of me right now but I'd imagine you can do something like air dash behind them or maybe away from them and make them whiff the DP and punish with 3C.

How do you guys practice setups with izayoi. Is there a way to for example make Ragna wake up dp? It's really hurting my game because I'm afraid to be dp'd every time i get a knockdown. I think jc after strike fall is a safe jump but I cant practice it lol... Any advice?

Well you can hover dash back to bait the DP/reversal and punish with 3C and get a fatal counter like that. This vid has an example of baiting DPs in the corner, it's not off a strike fall but I think the same ideas can apply depending on the height of the strike fall.http://youtu.be/nz4Q9vhIdX0?t=3m13s

[Surf]

No. If they keep DPing after j.C > j.D just safe jump. The safe jump option for that route is combo > 2B > 5C > sj.BAB j.C > j.D immediately after. As your falling input j.1C and once you land do 2B > 5B. So the whole thing is confirm > 214A > 2B > 5C > sj.BAB j.C > j.D > falling j.1C > 2B > 5B. If they DPd then the Izayoi will whiff j.C and just land, blocking their DP. Its meaty so they cant upback or press buttons after it. If they did then j.C > 2B > 5B will all combo and you can go into a confirm from there. If they try to roll forward usually j.C with catch them and you can confirm in 5C and punish them. This works anywhere on the screen.

[Justice7541]

It really depends on the height at which you do strikefall whether it's a safejump or not. Can go from totally unsafe to overshooting the wakeup timing entirely.

Hoverdash j.C off a Strike Fall is always a safejump as well if you time it right.

[Cambuki]

Thanks never thought about baiting dp's from the 6b g.a Ender but i will start to incorporate that when I use it. All of these replies will probably (hopefully) help me stop eating inferno dividers lol.

[Angel-tastic]

confirm > 214A > 2B > 5C > sj.BAB j.C > j.D

Can't they just roll away from this for free though? It doesn't seem like there's any option to cover that, or am I missing something?

[Surf]

They have to roll backwards to avoid it. They can only avoid it this way midscreen. If you do j.BABC airdash forward falling j.C you'll catch them though. But i dont do it often

[TD]

Hi.

On lunch so I have to make this quick. I want to learn izayoi. Well, I always did, but never really found the time (not time, there's another word for it but slips my mind...) to pick her up.

I will read this thread later so I don't repeat any obvious questions, but I would like some answers to the current ones I have, please be patient with me.

Really I just want to know her neutral and pressure game. Main pokes in each mode, offensive zoning and up close pressure, notable air pokes, movement in gain art, how to use her teleports and sword slashes to augment her zoning/mixup, stuff like that. Any misc tips you guys think I should know would be most excellent.

Execution is not a problem for me so recommend anything.

Notice how I didn't say anything about defense because I know here sucks, so the limited options makes that fairly easy to understand.

Lastly, any good info regarding top players. I watch shimotsuki and tetsuwo a lot between rachel vids, so is there anyone else?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please and thank you.

Edited February 23, 2014 by TD
Grammatical fixes

[Wild Candy]

Hi TD, I'm still working on Izayoi to. But I think I can answer some of your questions.

In Normal Mode, your going to want to use Sonic Sabre, along with 623B and 236C to control space. If you manage to force a block string, usually go for something like 5B > 6C > Sonic Sabre. Doing Damage in Normal Mode comes second to gaining stocks. If you manage to confirm 5B into 5C, then go into 623B > B Teleport > 623B again. That should get you four stocks under your belt. It's actually sorta like playing a simplified Rachel (Almost)

One your in Gain Art Mode, your going to want to stay a little more defensive like in normal mode. However, you can use 236D to force a mix up if it hits, or fish for a hit with 5B and convert that into a combo. Once you manage to combo into strike fall, that's when you can start using mix ups utilizing the Hover Dash. If your going up against a Zoner, like Rachel, Mu, or Nu. You can use 214D to teleport behind them while their summoning a projectile for a nasty sneak attack at the cost of 2 stocks.

Once your running low on stocks, or the game goes back to neutral, don't be afraid to go back into normal mode to get more stocks under your belt.

If their any more experienced players who can elaborate, correct, or detail anything I missed, don't be afraid to say something.

[Surf]

Hi.

On lunch so I have to make this quick. I want to learn izayoi. Well, I always did, but never really found the time (not time, there's another word for it but slips my mind...) to pick her up.

I will read this thread later so I don't repeat any obvious questions, but I would like some answers to the current ones I have, please be patient with me.

Really I just want to know her neutral and pressure game. Main pokes in each mode, offensive zoning and up close pressure, notable air pokes, movement in gain art, how to use her teleports and sword slashes to augment her zoning/mixup, stuff like that. Any misc tips you guys think I should know would be most excellent.

Execution is not a problem for me so recommend anything.

Notice how I didn't say anything about defense because I know here sucks, so the limited options makes that fairly easy to understand.

Lastly, any good info regarding top players. I watch shimotsuki and tetsuwo a lot between rachel vids, so is there anyone else?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please and thank you.

Shimotsuki is probably the best one to watch. A lot of his stuffs through the pages of the video thread and it shouldn't be hard finding them. The recent footage of Tetsu playing her is good too. That's about it imo. I would answer the other stuff but my post would be extremely long, and I'm busy atm

[crimsonstardust]

So something's that didn't get mentioned, stance cancels is a great way to keep her safe as well and let's you keep the pressure going in either mode. Do not blindly try to yolo hover dash jC in GA mode, it will not end well cause just about anything will swat her out of it. She's got a pretty decent air throw game as a lot of people like to chicken block, you can snatch people like that during a hover dash. One thing you want to get down with her is being able to move with get in GA cause her movement options are quite different from the cast. It's also pretty easy to miss hover dash jC -> 5B ->5C cause 5C has short range so try to get a good grasp on spacing or you can just use 2B -> 5B for less damage. Normal mode it's pretty good to know jump loops and there are variations on them that work better then some depending on the character.

Neutral the go to poke is 5B due to its range but it can get low profiled by some characters. A few other that are good is 6C in either mode, the normal one has pretty good range and score you a fatal counter and can be kept safe with sonic saber or stance cancel, and if you wanna get tricky you can crush trigger. The GA one is a a bit slow but launches people and is safe on block.

In a nutshell you want to play footsies, and go to town once you are in and keeping an eye on stars.

Edited February 23, 2014 by crimsonstardust

[TD]

thank you all for the responses! she sounds and plays pretty simply it seems, her moves seem just enough to do everything albeit worse than others from the looks of it. wow she has a bunch if anti airs, almost looks like one cant approach her at all from an angle.

gonna practice and see how well she clicks, and l see theres a good wiki info on her so i'll be labbing it up. thanks again for the responses.

[Monarch]

Quick question, I'm trying to pick up Izayoi as my sub but I'm having one almost consistent problem. During the bread and butter: 6C>236B>214A>2B>5C>623C I'm having trouble with 2B. I'm not sure whether I'm not teleporting fast enough or if my distance is off because it whiffs at random times I try it.

[TD]

having had the same problem today, l solved it pretty quickly, you just have to buffer the 214a after the 236b, and then buffer the 2b after the 214a. requires a bit of timing and precision really but once you do it a few times you should get used to the timing.

l dont think 2b should whiff? maybe at near max or max range 236b, yeah in fact l think it will whiff. wonder if dash 2a would work here, it may not or still might suffer range problems later in the combo.

[crimsonstardust]

l dont think 2b should whiff? maybe at near max or max range 236b, yeah in fact l think it will whiff. wonder if dash 2a would work here, it may not or still might suffer range problems later in the combo.

It can depending on things like your starter and the spacing. I say starter cause if you start with 2A for example it can push your opponent just far away so 2B misses.

[Celerity]

It can depending on things like your starter and the spacing. I say starter cause if you start with 2A for example it can push your opponent just far away so 2B misses.

From a max range 6C, 236B > 214A > 2B should connect on all characters. 5C might whiff though.

Also @TD: You can't link dash 2A after a teleport, because teleport recovery is only normal/special cancelable. If you want to dash, you'll have to wait an extra ~5 frames for the recovery to end.

[Justice7541]

thank you all for the responses! she sounds and plays pretty simply it seems, her moves seem just enough to do everything albeit worse than others from the looks of it. wow she has a bunch if anti airs, almost looks like one cant approach her at all from an angle.

gonna practice and see how well she clicks, and l see theres a good wiki info on her so i'll be labbing it up. thanks again for the responses.

Her anti-airs look decent but they're pretty crap. Her AA game is basically just making the opponent not want to take risks on her because she scoops pretty decent damage off her AA hits.

6A is a guardpoint, not invul, so it works about as well as Bang's 2D except minus the teleport crossup and jump cancel on block options. It's also slower.

623B is good and leads to stocks/damage IF you connect with it, but the hitbox isn't as good as Jin's even though it looks similar. It's actually super narrow, it'll whiff if they're too low or too close.

623C is better but it's awkward since they have to be right above you. It's like trying to anti-air with Jin's Rehhyou but again the hitbox is worse.

5A has a really crappy hitbox so don't bother with it. 5C is okay in limited cases but you have to be really spot-on with the spacing or you'll just trade or lose.

Honestly her best AA is probably just jump + j.A.

[crimsonstardust]

From a max range 6C, 236B > 214A > 2B should connect on all characters. 5C might whiff though.

So if you have a 2A starter and your opponent is crouching to be able to combo in 6C would you still be able to pick it up after 236B?

[TD]

From a max range 6C, 236B > 214A > 2B should connect on all characters. 5C might whiff though.

Also @TD: You can't link dash 2A after a teleport, because teleport recovery is only normal/special cancelable. If you want to dash, you'll have to wait an extra ~5 frames for the recovery to end.

Oh I see.

Her anti-airs look decent but they're pretty crap. Her AA game is basically just making the opponent not want to take risks on her because she scoops pretty decent damage off her AA hits.

6A is a guardpoint, not invul, so it works about as well as Bang's 2D except minus the teleport crossup and jump cancel on block options. It's also slower.

623B is good and leads to stocks/damage IF you connect with it, but the hitbox isn't as good as Jin's even though it looks similar. It's actually super narrow, it'll whiff if they're too low or too close.

623C is better but it's awkward since they have to be right above you. It's like trying to anti-air with Jin's Rehhyou but again the hitbox is worse.

5A has a really crappy hitbox so don't bother with it. 5C is okay in limited cases but you have to be really spot-on with the spacing or you'll just trade or lose.

Honestly her best AA is probably just jump + j.A.

Tried ja. It does look big. I find it sort of sad that her air normals just hit diagonally below her, it's really hard to fight air to air. Jb doesn't seem to do the trick either. Guess she just needs to be above or below the foe, mostly at an angle just to start pressure.

So what are you guys doing offensively once you get in in either mode? I do a lot of 5b 6c in normal, stance cancels and mixing between ss, non stance cancel attacks and various teleports. In GA mode, although it's working extremely well now, I know 66 jc xn is not going to keep working. So, especially in GA mode how do you guys stay on the foe or do mixups? Particularly incorporating d ss into pressure outside of oki, stopping jumping/mashouts, like that. And how are you guys getting in in that mode because I keep ending up in the air where I have to work with these shitty normals.

[Rhannmah]

Well, it's no surprise that this character is considered the worst in the game. It's because everything you mentioned doesn't have a clear solution and everything is an uphill battle.

[crimsonstardust]

So what are you guys doing offensively once you get in in either mode? I do a lot of 5b 6c in normal, stance cancels and mixing between ss, non stance cancel attacks and various teleports. In GA mode, although it's working extremely well now, I know 66 jc xn is not going to keep working. So, especially in GA mode how do you guys stay on the foe or do mixups? Particularly incorporating d ss into pressure outside of oki, stopping jumping/mashouts, like that. And how are you guys getting in in that mode because I keep ending up in the air where I have to work with these shitty normals.

Wells there's things like hover dash D SS which I don't use unless I am absolutely sure it will hit, other wise I stick to the A version. There's a lot of matches where your better off setting up a oki into GA, I feel like GA neutral is weaker then NM neutral, mostly cause you can't do regular dashes for footsies and such. Some matches it's better to stay in GA anyway like against some zoners for example. GA neutral I feel like its gonna come down to how well you move and be able to take that chance to punish a mistake. Keeping pressure with her is pretty tough, she has ways to keep herself safe to try again later, don't forget during a hover dash jC you can jump cancel it and do stuff like bait reversals, tick throws, falling cross up (this is kinda slow but you can train your opponent to block it and do stuff like tick throws and such). Hover dash jA at your opponent keeps you in the air long enough to follow up any SS moves. But as I mentioned before, it's really easy to disrespect her so keep things like that in mind when you try to open people up.

[Rhannmah]

one thing i like to do to get in in GA mode is to fake a hoverdash in by stopping it early and try to catch jump-outs with 623b and option select strikefall. If they get hit, strikefall comes out and you get a great oki opportunity, and if they block nothing comes out so you're safe. Worst case scenario is if it whiffs and they rush at you, but you can always cancel it into D teleport to counter their punish attempt (if you're fast enough).

Once in, if the opponent blocked your mixup you can end a blockstring with 236c stance cancel into 66 j.B, which if it hits while they are crouching links into 2b->5b->stuff for a hefty sum of damage. Repeat as necessary. You can also mix it up with D sonic sabers for2 guaranteed mixups when they block it. You can also use 66 j.grab -> 2B, using j.grab makes you fall faster without having to throw out a normal making you go straight into a low from hoverdash, and if they are trying to jump out they get grabbed. Really, once Izayoi's in in GA it really starts to be fun and you feel that you have the freedom to do basically what you want, but it's getting there that is difficult.

[Angel-tastic]

Re: Jumping/mashing - One thing I like to do to catch jumping/mashing that seems to work pretty well is cancelling into Gain Art 6C instead of whatever the opponent was planning to jump/mash out of.

6C has plenty of time to confirm the hit if they jumped. If they mashed it's even better because you still win since your counter-hit properties are better than their 5A/2A counter-hit properties, and the counter combo does ~50% more damage. And it's +1 on block, so even if they block it you're still in good shape. You can 6C anywhere you can do D Sonic Saber, which people tend to try and jump over, so it seems like a good deal in general.

[crimsonstardust]

I'm surprised you can get 6C to counter mashing, everytime I've tried that I got mashed out of it, are you spacing it so that she moves in close enough to launch oppose to doing it near them?

[Rhannmah]

6c is 20f startup, 5b is 13f blockstun so it leaves a 7f gap

if you use 5c it's 16f blockstun so it's a 4f gap

2c is 18f

[Angel-tastic]

I'm surprised you can get 6C to counter mashing, everytime I've tried that I got mashed out of it, are you spacing it so that she moves in close enough to launch oppose to doing it near them?

Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I use it at the end of block strings after I've pushed myself out and my opponent might think a D Sonic Saber is coming, then move back in with 6C instead.

As Rhannmah mentioned above, 5C has 16 frames of blockstun and 6C has 20 frames of start-up, so if they mash a 5 frame jab, you should "trade" and get the counter combo.

@Rhannmah: I was wondering, which attack are you stance cancelling in Gain Art Mode?

I thought all her Gain Art moves are still minus on block even with the stance cancel.

The only move I stance cancel regularly is normal mode 6C since that makes it +1 IIRC.