Rhannmah Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 A situational/risky tool with basically 0 reward is the epitome of bad design. actually, that's pretty much Izayoi in a nutshell
Rhannmah Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Well epitome is pushing it, but she certainly suffers from basic design flaws. She's like I-No and Johnny rolled up into one character with all their weaknesses but none, or very few of their strengths. I think I summed up my thoughts in these posts: I feel it's kinda flawed to have to spend combo and knockdown opportunities just to powerup a mode that would only be -decent- if it had infinite stocks. Other characters can be 100% threatening from the get go while Izayoi struggles just to get to a point where she can be -somewhat- threatening. Mentioned it in my previous post, but she really needs a tool to force a block at neutral midscreen and farther, one to force a block on wakeup and better normals; her air normals are horrible at air control and all 3 do the same thing, attack downwards in front of her and she needs an anti-air that leads to a combo, not a blowback all the way across the screen which is the last place you want your opponent to be. Also not one that is friggin -12f on block without any gatlings or cancels short of rapid. What I'd like this character to be is a goddamn rape machine in gain art mode, but only be able to keep it active for, for example, a number of seconds equivalent to the number of stocks you have, instead of having moves eat up stocks. Also, why is it necessary to have a 25f stance change between modes? Would be much more interesting if you could change modes on the fly like Gen from Street Fighter can do. All in all, this character just feels incomplete and not well thought out. Lots of potential though. I agree, Izayoi doesn't need to have a meterless reversal, there's already enough of that in this game. She's an offense oriented character, i think it would be out of her playstyle to have a reversal "just because". Not having one forces you to be good at predicting your opponent's movements and being good at blocking, and her gameplay is more interesting because of it. That said, not having reversal options implies having the tools to play without one, which she doesn't have right now, as i explained in my previous posts. but that's the thing, Izayoi is not Jin. They have completely different playstyles, and for a character so based on offense, Izayoi's 6b makes no sense when you can just crusade seraphim cancel your normals into hoverdash j.b which is faster and leads to combos. This is exactly the kind of stuff that makes me say that this character isn't well thought out.
Justice7541 Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 Tsubaki is bad design, Izayoi's just got bad frames and shit which are fixable. Tsubaki is pretty much hopeless by comparison, she's never not been bottom tier I don't think.
Surf Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) Sorry in advance for the wall of text. Collapsed: wall: She does feel incomplete. The rehaul to gain art movement in CP2 shows that. She's closer to being how she should have been in the first place. Maybe this is the idea they had in mind for gain art at first but probably thought she would’ve been too strong so they didn't implement it. Other characters can be 100% threatening from the get go while Izayoi struggles just to get to a point where she can be -somewhat- threatening Shes not the only character who works like this. Hakumen, Tsubaki, pre CP Hazama (needed meter for big damage. Not so much anymore), Bullet. Normal mode is more well off than a lot of these characters are with no resources/mode changes. Except Hazama. It's just character design. The point is to gather stars to become a threat. Hakumen can kill extremely swiftly when he's stacked with maga, Bullet does half health with H2 combos, Tsubaki does reasonable damage and gets more options with charge, list goes on. But without any of that stuff? Their usually not doing anything spectacular. What would be the point in gain art if shes already an extreme threat in normal mode. But that's not to say normal mode is bad. Its actually pretty good for being the "inferior" mode. Probably will be a lot more evident in CP2 once gain art becomes better and normal mode is virtually unchanged. I feel it's kinda flawed to have to spend combo and knockdown opportunities just to powerup a mode that would only be -decent- if it had infinite stocks. Shes "decent" already in normal mode and becomes better in gain art. What lead you to believe the character is crippled and unplayable when shes not in gain art. If you don't want to sacrifice orbs for knockdown then dont. 8/10 times you have a choice. Other 2/10 times is when your fighting like Makoto and Tao and their dumbass hitboxes don't allow you to pick up with 2B > 5C or your just too far away for 2B > 5C to catch other characters in general. THEN you go for 623 623B. If I don't absolutely need to do 623B to combo then I don't do it and go for the j.C knockdown. Yes Im sacrificing 2-4 stars on a regular basis when I do that but I'm granted knockdown and I since I got a confirm odds are I have at least 2 or more stars. 2 stars = a bnb at midscreen and a bnb+oki in the corner. If I didn't get a confirm after I switch usually I just switch back to normal mode if I have anything under than 3 stars. If I have more I stay in gain art and play neutral. I'm not going to opt to try to get more stars so neutral can reset everytime I get a hit in normal mode. Mentioned it in my previous post, but she really needs a tool to force a block at neutral midscreen and farther, one to force a block on wakeup and better normals; her air normals are horrible at air control and all 3 do the same thing So you want the opponent to be forced to block something when your a great length away from them, or even further. Barely any members of the cast of an option like this. Outside of ones like Relius, Litchi, Rachel, Hazama, Nu, Mu. Closest thing you have to that are sabres. It may not force them to block 100% of the time because it's not like the hitbox is the biggest thing in the world. But it forces them to move and make decisions accordingly. And you in turn control space and discourage them from moving in. The matchups where she cant even do this and gain stars are her truly bad matchups. 236D forces characters to block on wakeup outside of invul because its a projectile. And there are setups to punish delay tech. Her ground normals are so-so but I do agree that her air normals are pretty lackluster outside of j.A. What I'd like this character to be is a goddamn rape machine in gain art mode, but only be able to keep it active for, for example, a number of seconds equivalent to the number of stocks you have, instead of having moves eat up stocks. Also, why is it necessary to have a 25f stance change between modes? So in a sense you want her to be like Aigis where she has a timer for gain art stuff. It would be somewhat interesting to be like that but personally I'm fine with how things are now. With a timer, in many cases your inclined to "go ham". Because you only have so much time to open the opponent up, get the damage and knockdown, etc. Her gameplay would most likely be a lot faster paced and urgent. This would be a plus for some people I guess. I've never really had a problem with mode change. Maybe the time where i slipped and my thumb hit D by accident and I was hit but that's about it. Seems like a minuscule thing to complain about That said, not having reversal options implies having the tools to play without one, which she doesn't have right now, as i explained in my previous posts. Probably why they gave her 6A. Developers probably put it in saying they "at least gave her something". If her 5A didn't hit on crouching she would be able to reliably get out of pressure on IB. Baffles me why her 2A is 8 f as well but it's whatever. Her defense is bad. I know there are characters with also no meterless dps, but in a way they were given something to compensate (Relius 236A, Kokonoe 22C, etc.) to get out of pressure but... its fucking arcsys. I stopped trying to understand why they do things a long time ago. All I can say is really take the time out to learn to IB. Izayoi's 6b makes no sense when you can just crusade seraphim cancel your normals into hoverdash j.b which is faster and leads to combos. This is exactly the kind of stuff that makes me say that this character isn't well thought out. 6B not comboing in gain art is whatever. But they should at least give her the ability to combo from it in normal mode to help her mixup in it. That one change would help normal mode greatly. She isn't well thought out and is semi complete. Only thing I can think was they just weren't sure what to do what the character concept. She can easily, very easily be extremely strong if she was just given a couple of changes. Many people thought she would be top tier just from hearing what she could do before she was released. Just one of those things were it isn't the same thing on paper as it was in practice. Even if a lot of the tools she has/doesn't have can be labeled as bad game design, that's not to say shes a bad character. She has many even matchups and some she’s pretty favorable in. Problem is she's raped by the top tiers (Litchi, Hazama, Valk, Tao) because she can borderline do nothing advantageous in those matchups. CP2 as you said still didn't fix her very core problems as to why shes "bad" but first their trying to make what was good before, better. In this case it's making gain art better. Who knows how many revisions CP will get and what changes she'll be given later on but for now it's a start. Shes not an amazing character but she's not crippled or anything. Edited February 15, 2014 by Surf
Justice7541 Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) Does anyone know Izayoi's airdash frames? Just wondering how GA j.A airdash j.B/C breaks down as a high/low mixup. Edit: Wiki says 5f for airdash so I guess airdash j.B would be 14 frames and land 2B would probably be 12-13 frames, that's a pretty legit mixup. Edited February 16, 2014 by Justice7541
Wild Candy Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 Wow... Surf, those are some points of view I haven't even tried considering. There all really logical and really thought out, I can't help but find myself agreeing with your argument. Anyway, time for some newbie questions. My first question is what should you be doing in Normal Mode in neutral? How should you approach them? How Should You go about gaining stocks? Etc. I notice you want to try and play some spacing games and footsies with Sonic Sabre and Izayoi's long range pokes, but how should you go about that? My next question is how does this change in Gain Art Mode? How do you approach the opponent? How do effectively pressure the foe? And how do you work in neutral? I know Izayoi is supposed to be more offensive in Gain Art Mode, but how does one properly approach the opponent while dealing with Zoning tools and counter pokes?
Justice7541 Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 you mean airdash, or hoverdash? Airdash, I wanted to see how hoverdash > airdash j.B broke down versus hoverdash > land 2A/2B.
crimsonstardust Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 My first question is what should you be doing in Normal Mode in neutral? How should you approach them? How Should You go about gaining stocks? Etc. I notice you want to try and play some spacing games and footsies with Sonic Sabre and Izayoi's long range pokes, but how should you go about that? My next question is how does this change in Gain Art Mode? How do you approach the opponent? How do effectively pressure the foe? And how do you work in neutral? I know Izayoi is supposed to be more offensive in Gain Art Mode, but how does one properly approach the opponent while dealing with Zoning tools and counter pokes? Well there's no real easy way to answer both questions. Normal mode it's gonna really be knowing the rages of your moves and knowing some basic understanding of fireball and footsies. A few things to know is knowing how to keep yourself safe and part of that is knowing the ranges, don't forget even on block you gain meter. Also be aware that 5B and 236C can be low profiled by some characters. For gain arts this is something I struggle with myself, a lot of it for me is setting up oki for GA cause a lot of people find it really easy to disrespect raw hover dash approaches. It's gonna be hard to approach some really lame characters like Mu12 and Nu13 simply cause that's the way they are designed and your best bet is to try and weave your way in and stay on them. Neutral in GA is pretty frustrating to get down, a lot of it is knowing your own movement options and knowing how to deal with such odd movement. You can do things like whiff jB/C or jB+C to let yourself fall faster and create some tri jumping like movement like that, you are also able to air dash and jump from hover dash as well, and if you want to get gimicky you can use 214D as well. Knowing things like your not limited to just doing instant overheads, you can special cancel your approach with either version of sonic saber to keep your approach safer but this also requires you to be spacing it correctly. In the event you get in, I like doing jB+C when faking my overheads cause if they chicken block you catch the jump back and get a free combo like that. I feel like a lot of GA mode is really setting up that knock down and creating mix ups and baiting. Moves like GA 6C is ok to throw out if you space it right cause its pretty safe on block, not sure about instant though.
Surf Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 My first question is what should you be doing in Normal Mode in neutral? How should you approach them? How Should You go about gaining stocks? Etc. I notice you want to try and play some spacing games and footsies with Sonic Sabre and Izayoi's long range pokes, but how should you go about that? My next question is how does this change in Gain Art Mode? How do you approach the opponent? How do effectively pressure the foe? And how do you work in neutral? I know Izayoi is supposed to be more offensive in Gain Art Mode, but how does one properly approach the opponent while dealing with Zoning tools and counter pokes? The primary objective in NM is to gain stars. You can approach them if need be but most of the time the best place to be is full/mid screen away from them. Approaching really depends on the matchup, where there are some where she cant really space and zone (Nu, Mu, Litchi, etc.). Play passive aggressive. Control the space around you so they aren't running full screen in on you. 623B stops all reckless yolo airdash approaches they may attempt and 5B can usually stop blatant run ins. If you get them blocking you can just go into basic 5B > 6C > 236A chains not so much to open them up but to gain stars. It's somewhat hard to explain. The more you play the character the more you'll see certain situation occur and what answer you should choose for them. Personally I usually mode change when in neutral when I have about 5-8 stars. If I get a knockdown I always change even if I only have 2 stars. I don't really get that much more aggressive in neutral with GA. I do in pressure though. I still zone with sabre and I use her movement to get around a bit easier as well. I usually fish for CH 236/j.236A air confirms since it's a hard knockdown. Then I 236D and have them block that on their wakeup. Thats when I usually move in. I also start pressure if I get them with 623B~D knockdown. Her pressuring in GA is a bit hard. She can be pushed out rather easily and her normals are even more awkward in the mode. C Stance Cancels, 2C, 5C jump cancels help a lot in the mode and are all "hover points". Places in her pressure where it's usually safe to go from hover mixup. Stance Cancel Hover is fast as hell, 2C is +5, 5C is -1. 2A is also a hover point. For zoner, thats where 214D comes in. But don't use it recklessly. Best time to is it is when the characters during the startup/recovery of any move. A lot of people jump in reaction to 214D. So 214D air throw is good sometimes. Just try to see how they react to it once you do it. Tbh both modes are somewhat hard to get used to.
Wild Candy Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 Okay, that all gives me a better idea of what I'm supposed to be aiming for when Playing Izayoi. Unfortunately, their aren't a lot of high quality Izayoi video's, so it's a little hard for me to visualize what I'm supposed to do when playing with her. But basically, Izayoi's better off controlling space with Sonic Sabre and long range bokes when in neautral, unless she's playing someone who outzones her, then you want to play more directly. Finally, when pressuring, it's more so about forcing them to block Sonic Sabre and 236C/B to rach up stocks instead of cracking them open. When it's time to play Gain Art Mode, your going to want to play more defensively until you can land a knock down, then perform mix ups utilizing Hover Dash overheads.
Surf Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 Don't use 236B/C on block. Just stick to sabres to gather stars on block. But yea thats the jist of it
crimsonstardust Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 The only time you would use 236C on your opponents block is if you spaced it so you hit with the tip of it or the tip of 5B, I usually would do that when I know I can hit with the tip of those moves cause they are safe from the tip of the move, 236B is just not good to use outside of combos, the move starts slower then the C counter part and isn't as safe in general.
Angel-tastic Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Also, if you accidentally use CS Beta or Gamma when you're too close and they block it, you can use C teleport to make sure that you're far enough away that they can't punish. Crusade Seraphim blockstun is 16 frames and C teleport invulnerability starts on frame 16, so that seems to work out.
Surf Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 But it had 20 frames of recovery. You can be punished for it but it depends on the character. Ragna can dash 5B or Hells Fang, Azrael can 236A, etc. Fast moves that has far range with CH her recovery everytime. But the opponent would have to know that. It doesnt look like it can be punished. It's useful in some situations
Angel-tastic Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Yeah, that's true. It's still punishable. When I'm playing against a character that has a fast enough attack to catch me, I either try to time a teleport so that the invulnerability will dodge their attack, and/or B teleport instead so their attack goes the wrong way (B teleport has the most invulnerability as well). Of course, by the time you're doing any of this you already made a mistake, but sometimes you can get away with it if you use your teleport differently than the opponent predicts, but you still have to sort of guess how they're going to try to punish though, so it's still better to not use Crusade Seraphims in blockstrings. Edited February 17, 2014 by Angel-tastic
Justice7541 Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Don't forget Crusade cancel, it's a good way to bait out DP mash attempts if the opponent is looking for Sonic Saber or 6C instead.
chzchan Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 How in the hell do you get 236B 214A 2B to come out reliably? Is there a trick to it? If execute it too fast it turns into a stance cancel. If I execute it too slowly it never hits.
crimsonstardust Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I'm not sure how your getting a stance cancel, if your holding B down during 236B it will turn into a stance. You can hold down 2B and have a 3frame buffer. Basically your doing 214A the moment 236B hits.
Cambuki Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 How do you guys practice setups with izayoi. Is there a way to for example make Ragna wake up dp? It's really hurting my game because I'm afraid to be dp'd every time i get a knockdown. I think jc after strike fall is a safe jump but I cant practice it lol... Any advice?
Justice7541 Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 Record the combo on the dummy and do the DP manually as Ragna. It is a safejump btw.
Rhannmah Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 It really depends on the height at which you do strikefall whether it's a safejump or not. Can go from totally unsafe to overshooting the wakeup timing entirely.
Angel-tastic Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 So what do you all think is the best thing to do after the normal mode j.C -> j.D oki against characters with DPs?
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