[CP] Hazama Gameplay Discussion [New members read first post]

[Ctrlaltwtf]

5B > 5C > 3C > Jak.Gasshou > 66 5A works lol, you just gotta be in their face.

Also does like 3.9k if you opt for the 6C route, CP Haz is crazy. From the same starter you get a little over 4k in the corner

Yeah, I'm getting it now, but the microdash timing is insanely strict. Easier at close range when you don't have to microdash.

What's everyone's preferred method of getting a jC loop off? It seems to me there's several different ways of doing it. I'm getting it fairly reliably with jC1-2-3-4--pause-5 and jC1-2-pause-3-4

[abadlime]

j.C1-2-pause-3-4 for me. If i'm very high, i do 1234 then pause for fifth.

[_Sey]

just 2 pages ago :\

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15958-CP-Hazama-Gameplay-Discussion-New-members-read-first-post/page69&p=1561693&viewfull=1#post1561693

so, combo stuff:

Midscreen:

starters:

2A > 5B > 3C > 214D~66B > dash 5A > jC4 > dash 5B > 5C > > jC1 > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: 2506 HG: 17

214D~A > dash 2A > 5C > 3C xx 214D~66B > dash 5A > 5C > 2C > 4D~D > jB > jC2 > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: 2400 HG: 17

AA 5A > 5C > sjC5 > dash 5C > 6C > dash 5C > 2C > 4DD > jC5 > j214B

DMG: 3162 HG: 21

starters:

5B > 3C > 214D~66B > dash 5A > jC4 > 5C > 6C > dash 5C > 2C > sjC5 > 5C > jB > jC2 > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: 3642 HG: 26

starters:

236C > dash 5C > 3C xx 214D~66B > dash 5A > jC4 > 5C > 6C > dash 5C > 2C > sjC5 > dash 5C > j7C5 > j214B

DMG: ~2200 HG: ~20

ground CH 2C > IAD > 5C > sjC5 > dash 5B > 5C > jC4 > dash 5C > 6C > dash 5C > 2C > jC2 > j7C5 > j.214B

DMG: ~3600 HG: ~30

AA CH 2C > 5C > sjC5 > dash 5C > 6C > dash 2C > 5C > sjC5 > dash 5B > 5C > j8C5 > j214B

AA CH 2C > 6D > jC2 > j8C5 > dash 5C > sjC5 > dash 5C > 6C > dash 5C > 2C > j8C5 > j214B

214D~C > dash 6C > dash 5C > 2C > 4D xx 214D~66B(2) > dash 5C > sj.C5 > 5C > j.B > jC1 > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: 4070 HG: 29

214D~C > dash 6C > dash 5C > 2C > sjC5 > dash 5C > 2D xx 214D~66B(2) > 623D > dash 5C > 2C > sjC5 > j214B

DMG: 4441 HG:31

CH 5C xx 214D~C > dash 6C > dash 5C > 2C > 4D xx 214D~66B(2) > dash 5C > sj.C5 > 5C > j.B > jC1 > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: ~4100 HG: ~30

CH 5C xx 214D~C > dash 6C > dash 5C > 2C > sjC5 > dash 5C > 2D xx 214D~66B(2) > 623D > dash 5C > 2C > tk.j214B

DMG: 4371 HG: 32

Throw starters:

4B+C > 214D~66B > dash 5B > 5C > sjC5 > dash 5C > 2C > 4D~D > jC5 > j214B

4B+C > 214D~66B > dash 5B > 5C > sjC5 > dash 5C > 2C > jC2 > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: ~3700 HG: 25

Corner:

starters:

2A > 5B > 3C > 236D > dash 5C > 6C > dash 5C > 2C > jB > jC1 > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: ~2500 HG: ~20

starters:

5B > 3C > 236D > dash 5C > 6C > dash 5C > 2C > sjC5 > dash 5C > jC4 > 5B > 5C > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: ~3600 HG: ~25

Throw starters:

6B+C > 214D~66B > dash 5C > 6C > dash 2C > jC5 > 5C > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: ~3900 HG: 26

(dash 2C is chara specific)

6B+C > 214D~66B > dash 5C > 6C > dash 5C > 2C > sjB > jC1 > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: ~3800 HG: ~25

(works on everyone)

Overdrive midscreen:

starters:

5B > 3C > cOD100 > dash 5C > 6DA > dash 5C > 2D xx 214D~66B > 623D > j7DD > dash 6C > dash 5C > 2C > sjC5 > j214B

DMG: ~5300 HG: 47

Notes:

JP Hazama wiki: http://www40.atwiki.jp/blazblue/pages/1996.html

JP combo tutorials:

I prefer better oki (the kind that will let me hit rolls with 2B > 5B/5C > stuff, which leads to about 3.6k) over max dmg so most of those combos have enders (j8C5 j214B, tk.j214B) that favor that.

If you'd rather go for max dmg or weaker oki (hitting rolls with 2A 5B) there are "better" enders (jB > jC2 > jC5 > j214B, 5C > 2C > 4DD > jC5 > j214B, etc).

There are a lot of possible routes this time, and even between top players there doesn't seem to be a prefered route, it's all about understanding what starter is good and what you want to accomplish.

Want better corner carry? don't do 6C midscren, go for [jC4 > 5C]*N.

Want better damage? do 6C midscreen

Are you willing to trade a bit of damage for better oki? (don't) end your combos with 4DD etc.

Most of my combos should be close to max damage while going for good okizeme spacing, but there are a lot of little things that are just too boring to test by myself (what's better, more jC4 5C reps or 5C 2C sjC5? etc) and that I won't bother testing.

I haven't bothered writing down every single route for every starter because that's just a waste of time, you should be able to understand Hazama's combo theory just by going through most of those combos though.

Hazama combos are very "freestyle" in CP so just play around with routes and enders and try to find out what you like best.

I still need to work a bit on hountejin confirms (214D~66C feels like the best route if you are just going to corner carry, 214D~66B for OD and ending your combos with 632146C) and some OD confirms so I haven't written anything about that yet.

If anyone has any better combos/tech please share them!

Edited November 2, 2013 by _Sey

[Putin]

stuff

Lol just do Jak.Zaneiga > 6C > 66 5C > 2C > sj.C5 > 5C > 2C > sj.C2 > dj.C5 > Hiren, 5736 dmg and gets you back about 20 meter.

I also use j.C 2~2 after normal jumps and 3~2 after superjumps

[bace]

combos

I'm glad someone is posting combos! Our combo thread is so empty. I actually made a google doc I was going to update with combos. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L8Ys3lUhKqW1b2H32luP31TPdI8PGpVR4CDuebX-Nno/edit, whenever I have free time I was just going to throw stuff on there.

[Sadeyo]

Hazama really does have options off of everything. Just the way I like it. I can't make the best out of the character if I don't practice all of his new tools. Thanks _Sey and putin.

I prefer Zaneiga enders instead of Hirentotsu so I know where I'm looking for the most part.

[Putin]

4B+C > 214D~66B > dash 5B > 5C > sjC5 > dash 5C > 2C > jC2 > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: ~3700 HG: 25

You can do Gasshou > 5C > 2C instead of 5B > 5C for 3830 damage and 26 meter.

5B > 3C > 236D > dash 5C > 6C > dash 5C > 2C > sjC5 > dash 5C > jC4 > 5B > 5C > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: ~3600 HG: ~25

5B > 5C > 3C > Jabaki > 66C > 66 5C > 2C > 4D > Jakatsu Gasshou > 66 5C > sj.C5 > 5C > 2C > sj.C2 > dj.C5 > Hiren

4014 damage (!!!!!!), 29 meter.

Definitely optimal, you can also take this route off many mediocre starters as long as you are kinda fast to hiconfirm. It works even off 2B > 5B > 3C though so you really have to fuck it up, or use a jab.

6B+C > 214D~66B > dash 5C > 6C > dash 2C > jC5 > 5C > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: ~3900 HG: 26

(dash 2C is chara specific)

6B+C > 214D~66B > dash 5C > 6C > dash 5C > 2C > sjB > jC1 > j8C5 > j214B

DMG: ~3800 HG: ~25

(works on everyone)

Throw > Jakatsu Gasshou > 66 5C > 6C > 66 5C > 2C > 4D~A > 66 2D~D > j.C1 > j.C5 > Hiren

3985 damage, 30 meter. Works on everyone(?) but Bullet*, and the 2D is weird on Rachel.

Here is also a 2C AA combo I poster in the combo thread earlier today.

Back to corner:

(CH) 2C > Jakou > 66 5C > 2C > 4D > (max delay) Jakatsu Gasshou crossunder > 66 5C > sj.C5 > 5C > 2C > sj.C2 > dj.C5 > Hirentotsu

5093 dmg, 36 meter gain. I don't think i gets any more optimal than this without meter

I was going to "correct" a lot of your combos, but you explained that you take those routes for a reason, so I'll leave them.

You missed the 5C on most Gasshou > 66 5A > 5C combos though, you should fix that.

* Bullet seems to be this iteration's Hazama combo destroyer.

Close range 5C > 2C > 4D doesn't work on her since the 4D doesn't bite, so that rules out all of the corner combos involving chains against her. You can do it midscreen after Zaneiga > 66C most of the time since you won't be right in her face, but you still might want to opt for j.C mash instead just to be safe.

Also, airborne 5C > 2C > sj.C2 > dj.C5 is finicky against her in the corner. Midscreen it works no problem, but for some reason you can't get the djc into j.C in the corner if she's too high up, which is never a problem on the other characters at the exact same height. You either have to pick her up with 5C pretty low, or go for an alternate route. I think I'll be going for 5C > j.B > etc in the corner so I can rest easy.

I hope all the information in this page doesn't get buried since it includes potentially optimal combos, so yeah. Mods should keep an eye on all of this.

[_Sey]

It's not just Bullet, Platinum (and sometimes Relius, probably some other characters too) are all characters where 4D can hit as lv1 and not lv5, what you want to do is slightly delay 4D after 2C, then it will bite 100%

Your corner route is definitely good, but while testing it felt like the last 5C 2C sjC2 jC5 j214B was a bit unstable? like I could hit it on a bunch of characters but on some others not so much (I could just be fucking up somehow of course) also it felt like the opponent could (ground) roll out after j214B?

I feel like 5B > 5C > 3C > Jabaki > 66C > 66 5C > 2C > 4D > Jakatsu Gasshou > 66 5C > sj.C5 > 5C> j.8C5 > Hiren (~3900) may be a bit more stable but I'll keep testing for a bit.

Bace's google doc had some good stuff too!

I hadn't noticed I could hit jC5 of S starters midscreen

[Putin]

I play a Relius regularly and just tried it on Platinum, no problems with 4D whatsoever D:

We probably use different timings or something, delay 4D sure works on Bullet though. Thanks, I'll grind up the timing a bit.

The last j.C mash is "unstable" because the combo is prorated as fuck, so it's easy to drop. It definitely works though, but I find my self going for your version for like 100 less damage, it's not worth risking your ender if you're not comfortable with it just yet.

They can roll out of it pretty much like out of all the high Hirentotsu knockdowns, but you can pick them up with 2A just fine even off the full "unstable" combo.

If they roll out and you catch them with 2A you also get a juicy, piss-easy 3.9k combo:

2A > 5C > 2C > Jakou > (66) 5C > 6C > 66 5C > 2C > j.C2 > j.C5 > Hiren

If you end it with 8j.C5 > j.214B then you can catch them with 2B without swapping sides, but even though it's a better starter I can't reach the same amounts of damage out of 2B 5C roll punish. Jakou 2stronk. You don't have to worry about them bursting and leaving you in the corner though, that's for sure.

Also, I wanted to share some potential "tips" from my gorilla damage j.C loop adventures.

I like it better going for 3C > Gasshou > 66 5A > 5C > super jump j.C when I can/want to go for the 6C route.

Why? Let's say you do want to go for that 6C, however, you miss that dash on j.C4 > 66 5C > 6C.

If you didn't go for a superjump, the 6C will whiff and your combo will end badly unless you have godlike reflexes and go for another set of j.C instead.

If you did superjump however and missed the dash, 6C will connect. You will be too far to go for 66 5C > 2C afterwards, but you can end the combo with dash 3C > Ressenga.

Japanese announcers would say yasui in this occasion, but you just made up for your fuckup and got a proper ender instead of letting the opponent tech freely.

[Master Of Chaos]

3 questions:

1: What situations would be best to activate Overdrive for, and what should you do once you have it active?

2: What's a good way to land Hazama's new command grab DD move?

3: Is the AI now better at trolling then we are?

[Ctrlaltwtf]

3 questions:

1: What situations would be best to activate Overdrive for, and what should you do once you have it active?

2: What's a good way to land Hazama's new command grab DD move?

3: Is the AI now better at trolling then we are?

1. Finishing them off after a Houtenjin with an unburstable follow-up. This is especially effective for Hazama because he gets to use OD in neutral, which gives more time than OD canceling into it.

1. Doing combos after 3C

1. Setting up Orochi (it benefits massively from it)

1. Use point blank chain stuns to set up CT and Jakatsu Gashou

1. If you're in neutral, your chains will have huge blockstun. I think it may even be possible to perpetually lock someone in blockstun doing this.

2. 5B 5C 5D (point blank, not in OD) > Instant Orochi

3. The AI has always been better at trolling than anyone.

----

With regards to OD Orochi. I tested it and it's "actual" damage is about 4050 (instant) 4.7k (S) when in OD. Ow. This is because they're constantly being drained by the OD ring.

Also, it IS possible to pink throw Orochi and it's very possible they won't be expecting the chance to throw break and be preoccupied inputting jump/DP etc. People are somewhat used to the fact that they're fucked after the animation starts.

i.e 5B > 63214(D)6D for instant orochi

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[NoSales]

Haven't seen one posted, so I uploaded Hazama's Challenge 30.

[Putin]

So YOU need to stay airborne for 10 seconds... and I thought the challenge was glitched or something.

Time to 100% this guy as well

[Ctrlaltwtf]

So YOU need to stay airborne for 10 seconds... and I thought the challenge was glitched or something.

Time to 100% this guy as well

Lol at first I thought it was land 10 ouroboros hits. This'll make the challenge more fun actually knowing what it is now.

[LionHeartx]

With regards to OD Orochi. I tested it and it's "actual" damage is about 4050 (instant) 4.7k (S) when in OD. Ow. This is because they're constantly being drained by the OD ring.

why did i never think about that.

I remember being really intrested in a potential reset that involved a corner OD chain loop combo I saw some Haz player do (if anyone remembers the video im talking about can you post it pls). It was something like OD on standing hit 5C, 5DA then you keep looping 5B,5C, 5DA (i think thats how the combo went anyway) since 5D doesn't have SMP (again i'm not 100% sure on this lol) but basically I was thinking after 3-4 reps you could 5D xx instant Orochi since they'd probably tech out fast enough for it to be not a purple grab.

[744Dante]

why did i never think about that.

I remember being really intrested in a potential reset that involved a corner OD chain loop combo I saw some Haz player do (if anyone remembers the video im talking about can you post it pls). It was something like OD on standing hit 5C, 5DA then you keep looping 5B,5C, 5DA (i think thats how the combo went anyway) since 5D doesn't have SMP (again i'm not 100% sure on this lol) but basically I was thinking after 3-4 reps you could 5D xx instant Orochi since they'd probably tech out fast enough for it to be not a purple grab.

Was it this one?

Onegai Jayoku Hazama

[LionHeartx]

Was there supposed to be a timestamp in that link?

If so it didnt work

[Putin]

I thought that the Houtenjin Zaneiga path was superior to Gasshou's pretty much anywhere on the screen, but if you're not planning on sideswapping in the corner Gasshou is better when you get two normals or less before Houtenjin. For example:

6A > Houtenjin > Jak.Zaneiga > 6C > 66 5C > 2C > j.C5 > 5C > 2C > j.C2 > j.C5 > Hiren, 4612dmg

6A > Houtenjin > Jak.Gasshou > 66 5C > 6C > 66 5C > 2C > j.C5 > 5C > 2C > j.C2 > j.C5 > Hiren, 4752dmg

Same combos off 2B > 3C net 4946 and 5085 damage respectively.

You CAN however get that route even off 3 normals if the starters are 5B, 5C, 2C, j.C and j.2C,

which... means pretty much everything that chains into more normals but 2B and jabs

as long as you omit the last j.C2 and go straight for 5C > 2C > j.C5.

Also try not to add any 2Bs or jabs even after the starter for obvious reasons

It's already pretty badly prorated though, I even drop the delay during the first j.C set every now and then.

tl;tr if you get 2B > 3C > Houtenjin or anything better, go for Gasshou path in the corner.

[NoSales]

Wouldn't Jak.Zaneiga > 5C > 6C help add extra damage to it? I doubt it'd take too much time off that the combo would drop.

EDIT: I tested it and I got... 4754 damage lol. Gashou is probably a better path to go.

Edited November 7, 2013 by NoSales

[Putin]

I... didn't think about that. Which is silly since prior to testing the above routes I realized that raw Zaneiga > 66 5C > 6C does better damage in the corner than straight up 6C.

And I don't really get why you'd think Gasshou path is better after your tests.

As you said, Zaneiga > 5C path off 6A nets 4754dmg, while Gasshou > 5C 4752. 2 More damage lol, plus a little less prorated combo.

Other examples:

5C > Houtenjin > Zaneiga > 5C: 6243 damage, 27 meter

5C > Houtenjin > Gasshou > 5C: 6234 damage, 25 meter

Same combos off 2B > 3C:

5092, 23

5085, 21

So yeah, disregard my post above. Zaneiga > 5C > 6C is the best choice when you don't want to crossunder and you get two hits or less before Houtenjin.

When it comes to three hits though, things aren't that clear. For example:

5B > 5C > 3C:

5857, 27

5864, 26 (slightly better than Zaneiga path as opposed to the <2 hit starter combos when it comes to damage)

j.2C > 5C > 3C:

5301, 25

5301, 24 (exactly same damage, one more meter point from Zaneiga path)

tl;tr v2:

2 hits or less before Houtenjin, go for Zaneiga > 5C > 6C

3 hits before Houtenjin, go for whichever you find easier. Note that in this occasion you must omit the last j.C2 in both routes.

[NoSales]

Well, I'm probably gonna stick to Gashou, at least. I still haven't gotten the full timing for Jak. Zaneiga yet and Gashou feels overall easier anyway.

Plus in a game with characters that have health that hang around the 10k mark, a couple points of damage isn't gonna make much of a difference

Inb4 I get unlucky and have a match where I could have won with that extra couple points of damage

[Putin]

Yeah, 2-10 points of damage and 2 points of meter don't make that much of a difference, but it's good knowing what's optimal and what's not.

Jak.Zaneiga is easy once you get the hang of it, plus it prorates better so the rest of the combo becomes easier too.

I also feel that Houtenjin > 214D~44C is kinda easier than forward dash, so you might want to test this too. It also feels safer if you're going for dash 5C since you're not close enough to risk dashing under them.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

From the combosmithing I've done 6A actually feels like the optimal follow up. It has reverse proration. But I haven't had time to seriously grind the crap out of Haza combos yet. I suspect the ultra optimal route may be Zaneiga>6A

[NoSales]

Guess that's why they showed it in his challenge mode.

[_Sey]

Yeah, can't look up vids atm but I'm 100% sure I've seen Mitsurugi go for 214D~C 6A (corner) combos a few times, a 6A route could indeed lead to something interesting.