[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Hecatom]

Hecatom: I think you completely missed the point. To appeal to newer players you would have to make the game simpler and easier to understand. Should they do this? No. But refinedment in some areas wouldn't hurt either.

And I know how this game works, thank you.

I think that you missed my point, the general market cares about a fun game nothing more nothing lesss, how much is this for them is quite subjective, but by giving them different options of modes and gameplay style, + solid ways to teach how the game works is a good start.

There is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE misconception that a casual can't have fun with games like GG because is "so much complex".

I have a ton of friends that enjoy playing the game, and belive me, many of them know shit about the game, but they still enjoy it because it has a lot of cool stuff to do that is easy to do; They fucking love playing the game, and is one of their favorites, sure you could say that they are not playing it to the full potential, but they have fun with it, they are happy like that and they will sure buy Xrd when it drops, it wouldn't matter if is the most complicated game ever, like it doesn't matter now.

More of this misconception comes from what we saw from 2009 onwards, online play has been a blessing and a curse at the same time, because now while we have access to more people playing the game, now we face more people that are better than us. Add stuff like youtube and streams where people is able to find high level play, and see cool shit and when they try to replicate it learn that it takes time, now it seems that everyone thinks that you need to emulate everything done at high level to have fun with the games.

Add another misconception that GG is a hard game to play, actually is not. The game has a lot of stuff that is easy to do, you have chains and gatlings that make it easier to combo, almost every normal is special cancelable.

Yes the game has a good amount of stuff to learn about, but if the mechanics are taught in a simple way but clearly, the player wouldn't be overhelmed.

I totally agree that there are ways to refine some areas to make it more accessible.

But i also think that adding a lot of interesting features can help.

After all, what many people hate in reallity is losing. That is why i say that adding stuff like the heralds vs heroes mode can be interesting.

We know for sure that GG would end with some similar features like BB, they already toyed with stuff like that, add an online mode where they can modify some stats of their character and use it to play against other people.

I am pretty sure that something like that would help to attract more players than removing mechanics that many of them are not even aware that exist.

Regarding the possibility of them simplifying the gameplay, let's all breathe deep and wait for some evidence that major gameplay changes are even being considered. The fact that the trailer shows us exact replicas of old combos makes me think they're not going to change Xrd to a three-button fighter where you auto instant block and can execute supers by shouting "I BELIEVE IN MY DREAMS!" at the arcade cabinet.

Besides, it's not really the simplification of certain game mechanics anyone is afraid of, is it? The fear comes from the possibility they'll change the feel of the gameplay, like it'll lose that tight responsiveness a lot of modern fighters lack. I for one think they can remove or rework some of the more frustrating "newbie killer" mechanics without changing the overall feel of the gameplay.

Let's imagine some hypothetical changes to AC for example:

If they made it so it was possible to get a clean hit with Sol's Grand Viper on a pad, would that make the game too easy?

If they opened up the FRC point on Dizzy's ice spike just enough that you could realistically expect to memorize the input in hours instead of days, would that destroy the game's balance?

If they removed slashbacks, would that significantly affect the way the game was played? (This one actually isn't a rhetorical question. Does anybody honestly ever use slashbacks? In the dozens of hours of AC/+R tournament footage I've watched, I think I've seen someone slashback an attack twice.)

My point is that they can simplify the game without ruining it or turning it into Baby's First Anime Fighter. Again, that's IF they even decide to streamline the system at all, which at this point we have zero reason to believe they will aside from the fact that BlazBlue (different game) doesn't have FRCs and Capcom (different company) made the control scheme in Marvel 3 all easy mode.

I think that Spirit Juice got the idea of a good aproach, by adding an input buffer like BB of 5f a FRC window of 1 frame become 6 frames, making it easier to land without changing the core concept of the mechanic.

That alone makes the game more accesible imo.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Hecatom

[Chrome Homura]

...they're not going to change Xrd to a three-button fighter where you auto instant block and can execute supers by shouting "I BELIEVE IN MY DREAMS!" at the arcade cabinet.

Hope you don't mind if I quote this :p

Now that I think of it though, voice-activated moves seem like they'd actually be hella hype if done right. I think it'd be fun to input one's IK/Astral by delivering a one-liner from your character's dialogue. Strictly an option, probably one that wouldn't be suitable for a large tournament (nevermind cheesy as hell) but entertaining for those casual sets where nothing really exciting is going on (or online play, for that matter)

[president]

From the POV of a player that wants his community to grow I don't see how anyone could profit from difficulty changes or the game becoming 'more accessible'. If there are people that seriously only touch the game if it had loosened up FRC timings they aren't actual GG or fighting game fans anyway.

[Xtra_Zero]

I think one of the very very crucial things about GG that so many other fighters have forgotten is how important basic, SF2 fundamentals are. Individual moves actually do significant damage in GG and it's possible to win even in Japanese arcades against good players by just having a solid understanding of the basics of fighting games. The game can go ahead and offer some infinitely complex upper level stuff but as long as it doesn't overpower fundamentals like blocking properly, anti-airs, oki, spacing with proper moves and being able to punish with damaging supers it isn't an issue at all and never will be. These things aren't mutually exclusive. Even some "more accessible" fighters like BB have forgotten this and are, imo, less enjoyable as a result.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Xtra_Zero

[Fenrir Werwolf]

No input buffer plz

If people find GG too difficult to play without all this things, there is always Blazblue.

Hell, it was made for that reason

[werewolfgold]

Now that I think of it though, voice-activated moves seem like they'd actually be hella hype if done right. I think it'd be fun to input one's IK/Astral by delivering a one-liner from your character's dialogue. Strictly an option, probably one that wouldn't be suitable for a large tournament (nevermind cheesy as hell) but entertaining for those casual sets where nothing really exciting is going on (or online play, for that matter)

That would be extremely hilarious. Xbox One totally has an in. lol

But, I think that something to really keep in mind is that AC+R isn't even all that old yet (or out on all the consoles yet). And depending on the time frame involved, ArcSys should probably do something major to differentiate the two games in terms of the system and characters involved. I don't think it should really come down to being AC+R with an HD 3D paint job (or maybe some think that it should?).

I don't really like losing characters, but I kind of hope that the GG2 characters come over and play. If that means sacrificing a few to keep it fresh and interesting, then I'll accept it. For some reason, people even seem to be turned off by Tekken and its "keep all the characters forEVAR" model nowadays both due to stagnancy and matchup knowledge requirements. Obviously, GG isn't going to be near 50 characters anytime soon, but that's where the philosophy leads to in the end.

[Hecatom]

Yeah because removing characters with huge different move sets just for not being stangnant with the same faces would be a bright idea.

[White Man]

Now that I think of it though, voice-activated moves seem like they'd actually be hella hype if done right. I think it'd be fun to input one's IK/Astral by delivering a one-liner from your character's dialogue. Strictly an option, probably one that wouldn't be suitable for a large tournament (nevermind cheesy as hell) but entertaining for those casual sets where nothing really exciting is going on (or online play, for that matter)

No man, it has to be about believing in your dreams. I want tournament players to get crazy hype and scream that to land a crucial match-winning super. Finally let some of these guys live out their fantasies of being the protagonist in a sports anime when they play video games.

I think one of the very very crucial things about GG that so many other fighters have forgotten is how important basic, SF2 fundamentals are. Individual moves actually do significant damage in GG and it's possible to win even in Japanese arcades against good players by just having a solid understanding of the basics of fighting games. The game can go ahead and offer some infinitely complex upper level stuff but as long as it doesn't overpower fundamentals like blocking properly, anti-airs, oki, spacing with proper moves and being able to punish with damaging supers it isn't an issue at all and never will be. These things aren't mutually exclusive. Even some "more accessible" fighters like BB have forgotten this and are, imo, less enjoyable as a result.

Excellent point. If there's any significant retooling of the game system that's reasonable to expect, it's the gameplay becoming more combo-oriented since that seems to be the major trend in the genre right now. I personally hope the game stays the way it is now in that regard, where the combos are generally shorter and the emphasis is on solid fundamentals and smart meter management. If you want to talk about appealing to casuals, I think that design philosophy is also one of the reasons GG is as accessible as it is despite it having a number of more complicated systems for newcomers to learn.

[reaVer]

No input buffer plz

If people find GG too difficult to play without all this things, there is always Blazblue.

Hell, it was made for that reason

GG has always had an input buffer... It's why 360s work.

I think that you missed my point, the general market cares about a fun game nothing more nothing lesss, how much is this for them is quite subjective, but by giving them different options of modes and gameplay style, + solid ways to teach how the game works is a good start.

There is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE misconception that a casual can't have fun with games like GG because is "so much complex".

I have a ton of friends that enjoy playing the game, and belive me, many of them know shit about the game, but they still enjoy it because it has a lot of cool stuff to do that is easy to do; They fucking love playing the game, and is one of their favorites, sure you could say that they are not playing it to the full potential, but they have fun with it, they are happy like that and they will sure buy Xrd when it drops, it wouldn't matter if is the most complicated game ever, like it doesn't matter now.

The point as you admitted later is that people hate to lose. It tends to destroy their egos and pride, etc. And having 20 different options in almost every situation varying from different types of guard to different types of pokes/reversals does not make their time any easier. Teaching them the mechanics isn't that difficult in itself, but the development a player needs takes time and a LOT of effort. A LOT more than other games currently on the market. I don't want them to limit this freedom, but it's one of the major things making this game so hard for newcomers.

The fact you have a crowd that loves the game and loves playing it is an amazing feat in itself. And as long as they are the least bit competitive I'm sure they will become good players in time. Regardless of how optimal or sloppy you think they are playing.

More of this misconception comes from what we saw from 2009 onwards, online play has been a blessing and a curse at the same time, because now while we have access to more people playing the game, now we face more people that are better than us. Add stuff like youtube and streams where people is able to find high level play, and see cool shit and when they try to replicate it learn that it takes time, now it seems that everyone thinks that you need to emulate everything done at high level to have fun with the games.

#R netplay was available in 2006, my netplay might've been 2009, I don't even remember :D But it never changed anything besides the fact that people in remote locations could now play. I now have a car and can reach most people in about 30 minutes so the netplay has become a moot point for me as far as playing inside my own country is concerned.

What always has been here since dustloop's inception and that has never gone away in gaming in general is the general notion you should play the game a certain 'optimal' way. I've had this notion for a while and if you remember, you'd see my opinion changing right before I got banned. Several years later you were able to see a much more developed order sol that perhaps is even closer to the Japanese than my wannabe self was when I was focusing on following the 'rules'.

Let me remind people: there's only one rule: his meter needs to be empty before yours; how you do it is NOT important(as long as you're not resorting to physical violence or the sort).

Add another misconception that GG is a hard game to play, actually is not. The game has a lot of stuff that is easy to do, you have chains and gatlings that make it easier to combo, almost every normal is special cancelable.

Yes the game has a good amount of stuff to learn about, but if the mechanics are taught in a simple way but clearly, the player wouldn't be overhelmed.

It's not the mechanics by themselves that make the game hard. It's the variety of them and their applications. Just by mixing up faultless with impact guarding you're able to generate unexpected throw openings, even against the stronger players. And it's VERY HARD to see those kind of nuances.

I totally agree that there are ways to refine some areas to make it more accessible.

But i also think that adding a lot of interesting features can help.

Refinement can help, but like I said, the complexity isn't coming from execution, it's just the ability to get into people's heads that unparalleled in other games. Not even BB.

After all, what many people hate in reallity is losing. That is why i say that adding stuff like the heralds vs heroes mode can be interesting.

We know for sure that GG would end with some similar features like BB, they already toyed with stuff like that, add an online mode where they can modify some stats of their character and use it to play against other people.

I am pretty sure that something like that would help to attract more players than removing mechanics that many of them are not even aware that exist.

I have no idea what you're talking about :D But the fact of the matter remains is that people need play time, they need to realize what is happening and they need to become master of their character before they can even think of winning games. And until they get there, they will have to be prepared to lose.

[kosmos badgirl]

Found this on tumblr.

http://noisetank01.tumblr.com/post/51052554379/trying-to-illustrate-the-cause-of-the-perceived

[Narroo]

The problem here is that people are confusing complexity and depth with execution.

Execution is the ability to perform an action on command. No more.

Execution is important, but it is not the point of the game. If it were, the game would consist of two screens with everyone comboing punching bags to see who get's the highest score. This game is a competitive, versus, game were you interact with your opponent to beat him.

Being able to execute FRCs, links, combos, Reversals, and the like are just a means to an end.

As such, arguing that moves need to be difficult to perform for the sake of difficulty is nonsensical.

For instance, let's say you could have a maneuver that either takes:

1 hour to learn

1 day to learn

1 week to learn

1 month to learn.

And say the difficulty to learn is completely arbitrary. In this case, why have the move take longer than an hour? So veteran can proudly say he spent a month not playing the game, but repeating the same thing over and over again in training mode? That's nonsense. You want players to be able to pick up your mechanics and actually use them within a reasonable amount of time. Making them have to play for months before they can even control the game, when not necessary, is arbitrary and silly.

What's fun about the game is about zoning, mixups, and mind games. Not memorizing 1-frame links or FRCs.

[Hecatom]

The problem here is that people are confusing complexity and depth with execution.

Execution is the ability to perform an action on command. No more.

Execution is important, but it is not the point of the game. If it were, the game would consist of two screens with everyone comboing punching bags to see who get's the highest score. This game is a competitive, versus, game were you interact with your opponent to beat him.

Being able to execute FRCs, links, combos, Reversals, and the like are just a means to an end.

As such, arguing that moves need to be difficult to perform for the sake of difficulty is nonsensical.

For instance, let's say you could have a maneuver that either takes:

1 hour to learn

1 day to learn

1 week to learn

1 month to learn.

And say the difficulty to learn is completely arbitrary. In this case, why have the move take longer than an hour? So veteran can proudly say he spent a month not playing the game, but repeating the same thing over and over again in training mode? That's nonsense. You want players to be able to pick up your mechanics and actually use them within a reasonable amount of time. Making them have to play for months before they can even control the game, when not necessary, is arbitrary and silly.

What's fun about the game is about zoning, mixups, and mind games. Not memorizing 1-frame links or FRCs.

Wrong, what people are affraid is to lost tools that make GG what it is, a game that gives the players characters with great tools to use as they please.

The FRC is only an example, since is a great tool that helps the chracters have more options for mixups, pressure, makes move safe, etc and losing something like that could certainly change the game, and the fear is that it could be for the worse.

No one here has said that execution = depth, on the contrary, i think that many here are on the page that more options = depth, and tools like FRC give that, more options that enrich the strategies.

One more thing, keep in mind that execution is a valid way to balance the risk reward ratio, and as it has been explained the FRC's are "difficult" due the nature of the mechanic and the effectiveness intended for each move that is cancelled.

If anything what people has said about execution, is that GG rewards the players who take its time to learn it, since it gives them an array of options to use, and that they don't want to lose that. Not that they want to keep everything difficult just because.

Edit

I want to add, as has been discussed many times on SRK, execution barriers will always appear sooner or later, MVC2 was seem at the beginning of its life time as a dumbed down game, and now it has shit like ROM and Fly Unfly combos. The same is happening with UMVC3, where many people thought that it was only ABC S, BBC S, relaunch BBC S, Super, and now there are more complex stuff that is difficult to perform without practice.

IMO the difference is that GG tries to have more control on how the game will evolve, by leaving less stuff to the chance

Also execution is a huge part of the strategy, for example, if ou can't do the 100% stun combos of makoto on 3s consistently, you don't make your whole stratey around that combo.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Hecatom

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Hecatom fucking gets my fear )<

That's exactly what I want. I want all those mechanics and options that make GG freakin' GG.

If execution is a bit easier, I don't mind.

[Hecatom]

Hecatom fucking gets my fear )<

That's exactly what I want. I want all those mechanics and options that make GG freakin' GG.

If execution is a bit easier, I don't mind.

Actually my fear in reallity is that they end taking away options without compensating for the loss.

For example, if they remove the FRC's but instead make them forcebreaks i wouldn't mind, though it still can have an impact on how the game is played.

Another thing is that GG is a fine tuned game where every mechanic was added with a lot of thought behind them, outside stuff like the slashback and the forcebreaks all the others have a huge role on how GG is played and how it flows, removing one of them could potentially change the game and as i said before, for the worse, and no one here wants that.

Found this on tumblr.

http://noisetank01.tumblr.com/post/51052554379/trying-to-illustrate-the-cause-of-the-perceived

This actually made me think about something, Ky lost a normal with good reach if the one of the trailer ends replacing it, not to mention that we don't know if they will change how the dust attack behaves

[Narroo]

Wrong, what people are affraid is to lost tools that make GG what it is, a game that gives the players characters with great tools to use as they please..

A lot of the posters here, yes. But if you read back, there are a few people that seem to really value arbitrary execution barriers. For instance, one guy was complaining that they "might put in a buffer like BB."

My post was aimed at the few people that are afraid of reducing execution barriers.

Also, I am aware that many execution barriers are natural.

[Hecatom]

I just want to be sure, FRC's are not random execution barriers, they are difficult because the nature of the mechanic an the intended behaviour of what happens after you successfully perform one

[AtTheGates]

FRCS will:

1.) stay in the game, they are vital. they offer flexibility and drastically change gameplay.

2.) will become easier, either through holding the buttons beforehand (BB) or by being able to buffer it straight out. this is necessary for 2 reasons: 1. netplay and 2. for the sf4 generation.

[Amadeus46Art]

I just realized Ky's "Dust" launcher/uppercut looks similar to his GG1 6P.

Well that's neato.

[werewolfgold]

Yeah because removing characters with huge different move sets just for not being stangnant with the same faces would be a bright idea.

Fine. Don't come crying to me when Order Sol and Robo-Ky get left out. I've already mentally prepared. I doubt Kliff is looking that great either. Who knows what the hell they're gonna do to Bridget...

Edited May 22, 2013 by werewolfgold

[zerosoulreaver]

I can understand removing some characters such as ABA, Kliff, Dizzy can go, I like Justice though I'm sure she may be gone .

I hope to see Raven, That Man and some new characters.

Hell I wouldnt mind if they keep everyone and just add new characters.

Edited May 22, 2013 by zerosoulreaver

[Kyosuke Kagami]

I just realized Ky's "Dust" launcher/uppercut looks similar to his GG1 6P.

Well that's neato.

Except they added Kyosuke's Raijin Uppercut to it.

It looks sexy.

And I'm betting almost all from GG1 (sans Kliff and Justice) will make it back. Maybe they'll replace Justice with another Aria clone.

I want buffed Axl back. And THE OLD GG1 SONGS. I WANT TO KICK SOL'S ASS LISTENING TO CONCLUSION

[Hecatom]

Fine. Don't come crying to me when Order Sol and Robo-Ky get left out. I've already mentally prepared.

I am talking about removing characters for stupid shit like "keeping the game fresh".

If they can't add all the chars due time/cost constraints so be it, otherwise it will be a stupid move of from their part.

I can understand removing some characters such as ABA, Kliff, Dizzy can go, I like Justice though I'm sure she may be gone .

I hope to see Raven, That Man and some new characters.

Hell I wouldnt mind if they keep everyone and just add new characters.

You thik that Dizzy, one of the most popular characters is fine to be absent?, lol, yeah right.

Kliff an Justice are very probable to be absent, but ABA? if is just because lolstory...

Edited May 22, 2013 by Hecatom

[zerosoulreaver]

Yeah b/c god forbid we actually like and grow attached to some new characters. Just a thought, but I don't think all the fan favorite characters will stay. If they do that's fine, but just saying.

[Oiboi]

So much speculation in this thread. Crazy yo.

I'm hype as fuck for this. Can't wait for a full roster. Not gonna bother guessing at anything until more is revealed.

[SolxBaiken]

So much speculation in this thread. Crazy yo.

Mostly premature crying, not much to see = w=