[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Moy_X7]

Difficulty is subjective, different people will have issues with different things. My main issue is Slayer's delayed airdash after BBU>5HS, but FRCs I can usually get down to a 50% success rate within minutes. The only thing I can really give you is good wishes :/

That's true but my point is that I personally have never had such an issue with execution until I messed around with FRCs, well at least not so bad to the point where it would deter me from playing the game. In my mind, I see FRCs as an absolutely crucial thing to learn in order to be competent at the game. I guess I'll just have to play the game as it is and bang my head on the desk when I waste 50 meter on a missed FRC lol.

[Sym_]

Yeah, I agree that FRCs aren't that hard, and I, too, like most people who have played this game for a long time, can do the ones I care about pretty much every time. I just don't see what the problem would be if they were suddenly trivial to do for new players who hadn't put the time in. It would open up that choice to them in matches, which is a good thing for everyone.

You honestly believe making FRCs easier would bring in a slew of new players? I highly doubt that. The people who don't want to spend the time learning FRCs are more than likely just going to complain about something else if they make FRCs easier.

I feel that GG already has enough aspects of it's game that cater to newer players. The average characters BnBs and gatlings are fairly simple, directional inputs are pretty lenient, lots of defensive mechanics are very easy to execute (burst, DA, backdash, fd. etc.) Catering to newer players is risky business.

I feel that the learning curve of GG is mapped out very well and changing it will do more harm than good.

[Digital Watches]

I don't think it'll bring in new players. I think it'll make new players better competition without making the game worse. I don't see the downside.

[Narroo]

I don't think it'll bring in new players. I think it'll make new players better competition without making the game worse. I don't see the downside.

Some people apparently do see a bad side. I'm not sure what it is though.

[Klein]

The bad side is it'd change or take away a lot of the predictability that balances the cost of 25% meter. And it's not like easier FRCs would make the game THAT much easier for a large portion of the cast. Game'd still be chock full of weird airdashes, tight links, etc.

Also to Moy: you main Ky right? You can still do some good oki without meter, and oki is what he's largely about. You can get by fine without hitting FRCs 100% of the time, just work on them slowly and don't consider yourself crap without them.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Klein

[Xtra_Zero]

I liked the way Just inputs worked in SC4. They weren't (usually) necessary at all for doing your combo string, but they did do stuff way faster and for slightly more damage. Not to mention they usually had unique SFX that made them cooler.

It was a good way of rewarding super-good execution without making it a barrier to beginning players.

I'd argue just the opposite. Some characters (Yoshimitsu, a-Pat) absolutely 100% needed to do just-frame moves to be competitive. Also, it's a totally uncontested skill. You would always, 100% of the time, rather do the just-frame version of a move than the non-just-frame version, so the people who could time it right always had that as an advantage without any strategic element to it. Easily one of the worst things about SC5.

EDIT:

> SC4

whoops. SC4 wasn't nearly as reliant on them, but they were still an uncontested skill that you would almost always rather do. Still dumb and made the game worse.

A bad execution barrier is making 1-frame button windows to make basic moves or specials arbitrarily hard, such as FRC. There's no reason for it. It's doesn't really affect gameplay other than: "Can this guy do a FRC?" And as someone pointed out, making a move balanced because few people can do it is not real balance.

I'd argue that FRCs aren't always arbitrarily hard. If you can FRC the move earlier, that has strategy-affecting side effects. Widening the window that the FRC can happen during changes strategy, even if it's only changed by one frame. Now, making it easier by changing the way they are performed (like holding the button or something) has way less side effects. I'm not really against adding a few (2-3) extra FRC-window frames after the current windows, but to say it wouldn't have any strategy-altering side effects is flat untrue. And then there are still unresolved problems. One of the most infamous examples was Sol's Fafnir FRC. It had a window that made it cancelable either before or after the attack had come out. In this case, even if you widen the window or make the input easier by holding the button, in order to tell the game you want the FRC to be immediately before the move comes out or immediately after, you're going to have to time that shit. I can't think of any simple way to solve a problem like that.

interactive execution barrier

I like this term

Edited May 23, 2013 by Xtra_Zero

[Suzaku]

I personally pronounce it "Zurd" as I assume the intention is word play to make it sound like "Third" as X and XX were never pronounced as such (ゼクス/Zekusu and イグゼクス/Iguzekusu respectively).

But yeah I wouldn't mind him as the announcer, but it would be nice to hear from Gregory Payne again XD

X = Zeks (ゼクス, Zekusu)

XX = Igzeks (イグゼクス, Iguzekusu)

Xrd = Igzird (イグザード, Iguzādo)

Hope that helps!

[Volt]

The mechanics of Guilty Gear are good already. Of course some of them could use some tweakings like the 1F FRC's, but seriously, I can't even see something that really needs to change and probably never will. Anyway, do you think Xrd will be for PS3 or PS4?

[SolxBaiken]

Anyway, do you think Xrd will be for PS3 or PS4?

Honestly, I can see both as a valid option; developers aren't going to just up and abandoned the old consoles immediately, there will still be a market at least till about 2015ish but I think it largely also depends if they're using Unreal 3 or 4, if it's the former, it should make that much easier, if it's the latter well I'm not sure how compatible 4 is with older systems if at all.

[Zazz]

I personally pronounce it "Zurd" as I assume the intention is word play to make it sound like "Third" as X and XX were never pronounced as such (ゼクス/Zekusu and イグゼクス/Iguzekusu respectively).

personally, I'm going with "X Third"

also this thread made me remember the old lore of GG and so I had to reread the "Guilty Gear Stories" thread. a lot of cool info buried in there.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I'd argue just the opposite. Some characters (Yoshimitsu, a-Pat) absolutely 100% needed to do just-frame moves to be competitive. Also, it's a totally uncontested skill. You would always, 100% of the time, rather do the just-frame version of a move than the non-just-frame version, so the people who could time it right always had that as an advantage without any strategic element to it. Easily one of the worst things about SC5.

Could you not say the exact same thing about RC and FRC? One of them is always better, despite them being the exact same button only with better timing.

The only thing I like about FRC is the ability to cancel moves on whiff, or in some cases before the move even becomes active. I think it would add more strategic depth however if you could use it at any time during the animation. I can see that leading to some crazy mix-ups.

---

I'm personally going with "Excerd" like saying "Exceed" only with an R in place of the second E.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Circuitous]

Could you not say the exact same thing about RC and FRC? One of them is always better, despite them being the exact same button only with better timing.

No, not for every case. There are instances where an FRC is your only cancel option (command throws, usually), and there are cases where the FRC point is just before active frames and you actually want a regular RC, but end up whiffing instead by hitting it too early...

Okay, granted, there aren't necessarily a LOT of cases like that, but they exist. In general, it's not a decision to RC or FRC - for a lot of attacks, they're entirely different approaches.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

No, not for every case. There are instances where an FRC is your only cancel option (command throws, usually), and there are cases where the FRC point is just before active frames and you actually want a regular RC, but end up whiffing instead by hitting it too early...

Okay, granted, there aren't necessarily a LOT of cases like that, but they exist. In general, it's not a decision to RC or FRC - for a lot of attacks, they're entirely different approaches.

Well yeah, that was essentially my second point. I just wish FRC's weren't so pre-ordained.

The only real whiff-FRC I've seen that I liked are Johnny's off of his travel specials, and his 6K > FRC > grip setup. Albeit I haven't found a real use for the latter.

[Blade]

All I know is...it's a pain in the ass to buffer 82824789666+B+G for Ivy in Soul Calibur V.

And it's a pain in the ass to do I-No's 632146(FRC)6 Airdash Chemical Loves.

I don't give a crap if anyone says it gets easier with practice...if you can't do it right off the bat and other people can do as much damage for less effort with their characters...my mind hurts just thinking about the logic behind making moves like that even exist...

What's the point of making characters difficult to use?

Edited May 23, 2013 by Blade

[Suzaku]

I'm not big on the competitive scene, but I'll go ahead and drop my two cents.

I don't think that Guilty Gear is unfriendly for beginners -- it's actually really easy to pick up. Most of the commands are easy to execute, the gatling combo system makes combos pretty much effortless, and you can sometimes RC and even FRC -- effectively -- on accident, if you mash buttons. It's flashy and frantic, and you can double jump and air dash and do all sorts of stuff without much difficulty.

I don't think it needs to be "dumbed down" in any way to make it more accessible, but I also think that the technical difficulty can be reduced without hurting the strategic depth, and could possibly even improve upon it.

The real issue is introducing new players to a competitive scene that already has a lot more experience with the franchise, and the discouraging effect that can have. From a design standpoint, I think that's largely an issue of matchmaking, and ensuring that users have ways to learn how to improve their technique from within the game itself.

I personally think an interesting approach would be to integrate challenges, achievements, and tutorials into online play. Say, offer a player a tutorial for how to perform a key mechanic, give them a challenge against the AI to pull it off a few times, and then offer them a challenge to perform it a certain number of times in online matches (while winning the match). When they complete it, they'd basically get a medal (which can be improved through continued use of the technique), and from then on their proficiency with the mechanic will be taken into account when matchmaking.

So, for example, players who don't know how to RC generally won't get matched with other players that know how to RC until they themselves have started to learn it. At the same time, the game offers an overt incentive for players to learn the technique.

The other issue, of course, is just the community in general. I think after so many years of BlazBlue, and now Persona, Xrd is going to attract a lot of new players. There will be a lot of people trying Xrd who will have never played a Guilty Gear game before.

So the question is: do you want the community to be accepting of newbies, or do you want it to be elitist?

Edited May 23, 2013 by Suzaku

[Sym_]

All I know is...it's a pain in the ass to buffer 82824789666+B+G for Ivy in Soul Calibur V.

And it's a pain in the ass to do I-No's 632146(FRC)6 Airdash Chemical Loves.

I don't give a crap if anyone says it gets easier with practice...if you can't do it right off the bat and other people can do as much damage for less effort with their characters...my mind hurts just thinking about the logic behind making moves like that even exist...

What's the point of making characters difficult to use?

Thank you, sir.

[Klein]

I'd like the game to be like my gaming scene. Friendly to newbies, but not enough to coddle them into bad habits.

Also to Blade: I think the 6(FRC)6 stuff makes sense, but Chemical Love would probably be perfectly fine as a quarter circle motion.

[Narcowski]

Could you not say the exact same thing about RC and FRC? One of them is always better, despite them being the exact same button only with better timing.

You can't say that at all. With some moves, you explicitly have to RC rather than FRCing to go into optimal combos.

Also, the smallest FRC window in the game is two frames, guys. Yes, there are some tricks and links which require one frame timing, but if all you're trying to do is FRC you have at least a two frame window.

[Xtra_Zero]

Could you not say the exact same thing about RC and FRC? One of them is always better, despite them being the exact same button only with better timing.

The only thing I like about FRC is the ability to cancel moves on whiff, or in some cases before the move even becomes active. I think it would add more strategic depth however if you could use it at any time during the animation. I can see that leading to some crazy mix-ups.

In my experience most FRC windows do not intersect with RC windows, and even when they do, it changes things. If you block the move, will your opponent spend 25 meter to cancel at the time you expect, or will he wait and see if you react? Will he spend 50 to do a double fake out? Or will he do a triple fake out and then not cancel the move at all? In that case you should try to punish the move. ... but what if he FRCs?

[Ctrlaltwtf]

You can't say that at all. With some moves, you explicitly have to RC rather than FRCing to go into optimal combos.

Even on hit? Can someone give me an example where you want to RC instead of FRC, even on a hit?

I'm asking seriously here, I'm not overly familiar with the entire cast's combos.

I've no problem with what i call the "utility FRC" which is where you cancel it a unique time in the move to produce a different effect (i.e. Johnny's Travel specials). It's the FRCs that are only applicable after landing a hit that I find weird (i.e. Killer Joker)

Edited May 23, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Seku]

All I know is...it's a pain in the ass to buffer 82824789666+B+G for Ivy in Soul Calibur V.

And it's a pain in the ass to do I-No's 632146(FRC)6 Airdash Chemical Loves.

I don't give a crap if anyone says it gets easier with practice...if you can't do it right off the bat and other people can do as much damage for less effort with their characters...my mind hurts just thinking about the logic behind making moves like that even exist...

What's the point of making characters difficult to use?

I don't get what you are getting at, I'm assuming you want everyone to be easy or Potemkin-like?

I understand the difficulty of I-no's 6FRC6 thingy, you can always FRC66 some of her stuff but that would drop some of the combos against certain characters.

I agree on the less-effort part, in fact certain characters get more damage/reward by doing something less difficult. I do admit that sometimes when X character does something stupid or effortless and ends up winning the round effortlessly I get pissed off, but there is something very rewarding about pulling that difficulty complex stuff that I-no has.

I guess you can say that is a matter of opinion?

[Klein]

Even on hit? Can someone give me an example where you want to RC instead of FRC, even on a hit?

I'm asking seriously here, I'm not overly familiar with the entire cast's combos.

I can't think of any move with an FRC point that's better to RC than FRC unless you count Slayer's Dandy Step, lol. But there is stuff that straight up can't be FRC'd but can be worth the meter like Slayer's 2D>RC>full combo

[oldkiller]

Even on hit? Can someone give me an example where you want to RC instead of FRC, even on a hit?

I'm asking seriously here, I'm not overly familiar with the entire cast's combos.

I've no problem with what i call the "utiliy FRC" which is where you cancel it a unique time in the move to produce a different effect (i.e. Johnny's Travel specials). It's the FRCs that are only applicable after landing a hit that I find weird (i.e. Killer Joker)

Potemkin hammer fall FRC in +R: Sometimes when you launch your opponent too high, ex: 236S[FRC]-> 6P-> Hammer Fall

Testament 6H: Sometimes when your opponent is too close to the ground, you can't 6H[FRC]-> Grave digger (this is a #R ex)

I can't think of any move with an FRC point that's better to RC than FRC unless you count Slayer's Dandy Step, lol. But there is stuff that straight up can't be FRC'd but can be worth the meter like Slayer's 2D>RC>full combo

PS: Slayer 2D ex is not quite what he asked because it has no FRC option

[Teyah]

Even on hit? Can someone give me an example where you want to RC instead of FRC, even on a hit?

I'm asking seriously here, I'm not overly familiar with the entire cast's combos.

I've no problem with what i call the "utiliy FRC" which is where you cancel it a unique time in the move to produce a different effect (i.e. Johnny's Travel specials). It's the FRCs that are only applicable after landing a hit that I find weird (i.e. Killer Joker)

Both Millia's Bad Moon and Eddie's Shadow Gallery have FRCs that let you combo afterward, but if you're going for max damage, you need to RC to get a more damaging combo.

-RCing a Bad Moon lets Millia keep her pin and get a standard launch, as opposed to the awkward low-damage j.K xx Pin FRC followup.

-Eddie's SG is mainly used for a knockdown with the FRC currently, but with the mine UB returning in +R, you can do corner TKSG RC (2nd hit) -> airdash for a high damage followup.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Teyah

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Thank you for the replies. The only FRC I use frequently is Johnny's travels for flying fullscreen ninja kicks.