[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Yeah, but after reading Pachi's first shit, he literally wanted to transform GG into something like BB.

And WAIFUs are normal in a macho

[Rhapsody]

Was there a Pachi interview or something that I missed?

[danceljoy]

The trailer has 618,000 views in just 4 days O_O

[Jocelot]

I wouldn't mind the game being more like #R and less like ^Core (and that's coming from a dude who really liked ^Core).

Plus, with Eddie being announced it makes it even more awesome, since #Reload Eddie was the coolest imo.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

#R ZATO SAMA was bullshit, and you know it

[Jocelot]

The bullshit is what made him cool!

[Rishtopher]

The trailer has 618,000 views in just 4 days O_O

Honestly, a lot of that is probably people rewatching that over and over (I just watched it for like the 20th time now).

[LeonD]

Didn't like Ky's ponytail, but after multiple times rewatching this vid...

[STenSatsu]

I'm sure they'll keep FRCs in lol. At worst they'd make timings wider or, like Spirit said, just add the input buffer from BB/P4 to GG. FBs and slashbacks might go away though, and I wouldn't really mind if they did since slashbacks don't add much to the game even at high level and FBs don't really feel like a big deal most of the time. I'd miss HEVEN PRISON though =(.

[Orrax]

Honestly I'm of the opinion that any change that can make the game easier without changing the choices players can make in the game is a good thing.

I agree. I also agree with Klaige.

I don't think making things easier is bad. I also don't think things being difficult is bad, but it can be daunting to new players.

What I personally like about GG is not the technical difficulty. Instead, it's the vast array of viable options and possibilities along with the pace of the game -- the grand sum of matchup experience, the metagame -- which I think makes the game fun and is its source of depth. If Arc makes the main FRC I use (Gun Flame FRC) really easy, like giving it a separate input or something (even a ridiculously easy input like 236D doing a GF that auto-cancels at the exact point where the FRC would be), I would not care in the slightest. The game wouldn't really change in terms of its fundamentals or options (I can still do all the same stuff with and after the move) if such a mechanic were implemented; rather, one piece of its technicality would have been simplified.

What would bother me is something that would change very important aspects of the way the game is played and the way matches and momentum are carried out -- like almost completely abolishing the current oki system by adding ground teching, or doing away with instant throws (I sometimes feel like I'm the only person who likes instant throws).

Essentially, I think changes to technical difficulty are pretty minor. But changing things that drastically alter the metagame -- like removing the huge importance of oki and momentum, or getting rid of FRCs without a suitable replacement -- or, worse, altering the fundamentals of the game (I think implementing a ground teching system like BB could potentially do this) are major and, imho, warrant significant skepticism.

[Hilquit]

I started playing Guilty Gear with #R in the mid 2000s, in freakin' elementary school. Not only was it my first Guilty Gear, but it was my first fighting game period. No one wants to see the game dumbed down any less than me, but I think people need to recognize the distinction between changes in gameplay elements and regressions in gameplay elements to appeal to wider audiences. A more accessible Guilty Gear could still easily be amongst the most complicated fighting games out there. Honestly, this where I believe the challenge in developing a new Guilty Gear game lies. If ASW simply releases a clone of AC+R with new graphics, all the old man grognards like me would be more than happy! But it would also be extremely alienating to anyone trying to get into the series.

[Xtra_Zero]

FBs and slashbacks might go away though, and I wouldn't really mind if they did since slashbacks don't add much to the game even at high level and FBs don't really feel like a big deal most of the time. I'd miss HEVEN PRISON though =(.

I wouldn't be too butthurt either.

[Volt]

If I said "the input for a tyrant rave is a right uppercut followed by a left straight punch" would that explain it for you

Not really, You can do the input normally using the stick and arrows of the remote. There's even an advantage to wii players since you can get the timing to react with a dp better because you can either do the normal inputs or a waggle to do it.

Regarding Xrd, I think they won't change much stuff, especially the FRC's. To be honest, I'm more worried that they decide to take out some Accent Core moves like Sol's Sidewinder because they didn't show any combos that use newer moves.

[reaVer]

It's possible to be competitive without being a dick. Plenty of scenes have strong players and weak players who play each other and enjoy themselves. It's a matter of having some damn social skills and making the social environment inviting even for the people who aren't going to win a lot. There are a lot of game mechanics in GG and other games that are needlessly difficult, sure, but people still play and enjoy games they're not immediately good at. Trying to shift the blame for people becoming disinterested to the game mechanics makes both worse scenes and worse games.

I cannot speak for the US but...

In my experience, and here I'll touch upon Klaige's giant post as well, people cannot stand to lose over and over again. The last guy I trained, who ended up pretty much near my level, had to deal with 600 losses (almost in a row) before he was able to stand a chance. This is not something being about how good I am, but I will tell people that when they start playing this game, that they are going to be in for a LONG and unrewarding ride before they actually get to the point where they can have some real fun. And quite frankly, depending on the motivation of the player, you can almost immediately see whether they will even make it to that point the first time you play against them. And thereon it's only out of courtesy I recommend players other games.

Now, my own opinion about the GG scene turning into a bunch of dicks against the mainstream fgc is because of SF4 getting released. The game is simple, was back in those days very random and allowed newer players to win much more easily than they should. Those players tend to come into the GG scene with an arrogance they shouldn't have and that arrogance is addressed almost immediately. Quite frankly, one of the reasons I am alone in the NL is because I know that most of the dutch fgc thinks they are more skilled than they really are and it's only with more recent results(such as Canada Cup :D) that this has started to sink in with them.

Hecatom: I think you completely missed the point. To appeal to newer players you would have to make the game simpler and easier to understand. Should they do this? No. But refinedment in some areas wouldn't hurt either.

And I know how this game works, thank you.

[Xtra_Zero]

Loss endurance is kind of necessary in this genre. It comes slowly. I can say that it's probably because of this genre that I almost never give up on things. Maybe even this game specifically.

Nothing like the rare occurence of hearing the announcer shout "FINAL" before round 4 of a 3 round set.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Xtra_Zero

[dioxideUniversa]

"GG" also has a tendency to invoke memories of a bunch of GG players pissing and moaning about how shitty BB is in the early stages of the latter's life, which regardless of opinion does not come off as terribly friendly to people who did not play GG

and honestly dealing with the FGC as a whole outside locals can be pretty cumbersome as is, but The Internet really enhances this

Edited May 22, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[Xtra_Zero]

"GG" also has a tendency to invoke memories of a bunch of GG players pissing and moaning about how shitty BB is in the early stages of the latter's life, which regardless of opinion does not come off as terribly friendly to people who did not play GG

Maybe I'm imagining things but I remember most of the real gripes happening in CS. CT moaning was just "It's not GG boo hoo"

[deadite]

I bet Dizzy i responsible for the ponytail. Probably tied it while Ky was asleep.

[Blade]

I read this entire thread from page 1...phew....

Well, I'm gonna say it (even if Circ bitched about it already, but)...

The clash system the trailer is using is a throwback from Guilty Gear: The Missing Link.

Basic idea was...after 3 clashes, there was "pushback" (giving both players a gap/space).

But they revised it based on attack levels. So if you clash with a stronger attack you'll be in stun.

So it's something like:

Heavy Slash beats Slash

2H (Crouching Heavy) "matches" j.H (jumping Heavy) and causes pushback (but might leave the standing opponent in slight stun).

I'm not sure what all matches with 6P (Forward+Punch) besides close-standing Slash.

I think the reason they're doing this is probably to cut down on the "clash cancel" nonsense that older GGs and BlazBlue is full of that let you infinite-cancel in to anything after a clash (Inferno Divider Clash Loops for example lasted until one player got tired of mashing DPs).

So no more crazy "manual" clash sequences (unless you know the formula and can show off like some players do their 'handshakes' in combo videos).

Also seems like 6P's counterhit was modified with a floor-slide+bounce state, that might be useful for some combos (depending on if the bounce is technically in the air for relaunches or not or on the ground for OTG combos or not).

Other than that, I agree that the majority of GG's scene should be grateful for its current (and growing) numbers and be open to new blood and be willing to teach (or simplify their teaching methods) so as not to scare off newbies with complicated jargon.

I'm also hoping they do away with the complexity that was Jump Install and just give us a Jump Cancel after a High Jump.

Dunno about Dust Attacks or Overdrive cancels though.

There were no super flashes or freezes for Overdrives yet (not for Sacred Edge or Fafnir either), so it's still in development.

[deadite]

Didn't Last Blade have a similar clash mechanic?

[Blade]

Not sure, it's been a while since I played those games.

[deadite]

BB has a tradition of playing their OP theme whenever there is an Astral. So when an Instant Kill is done in GGXrd, Heavy Day will play?

[White Man]

Regarding the possibility of them simplifying the gameplay, let's all breathe deep and wait for some evidence that major gameplay changes are even being considered. The fact that the trailer shows us exact replicas of old combos makes me think they're not going to change Xrd to a three-button fighter where you auto instant block and can execute supers by shouting "I BELIEVE IN MY DREAMS!" at the arcade cabinet.

Besides, it's not really the simplification of certain game mechanics anyone is afraid of, is it? The fear comes from the possibility they'll change the feel of the gameplay, like it'll lose that tight responsiveness a lot of modern fighters lack. I for one think they can remove or rework some of the more frustrating "newbie killer" mechanics without changing the overall feel of the gameplay.

Let's imagine some hypothetical changes to AC for example:

If they made it so it was possible to get a clean hit with Sol's Grand Viper on a pad, would that make the game too easy?

If they opened up the FRC point on Dizzy's ice spike just enough that you could realistically expect to memorize the input in hours instead of days, would that destroy the game's balance?

If they removed slashbacks, would that significantly affect the way the game was played? (This one actually isn't a rhetorical question. Does anybody honestly ever use slashbacks? In the dozens of hours of AC/+R tournament footage I've watched, I think I've seen someone slashback an attack twice.)

My point is that they can simplify the game without ruining it or turning it into Baby's First Anime Fighter. Again, that's IF they even decide to streamline the system at all, which at this point we have zero reason to believe they will aside from the fact that BlazBlue (different game) doesn't have FRCs and Capcom (different company) made the control scheme in Marvel 3 all easy mode.

[reaVer]

If you watched me vs N.O, you would've seen him spamming that slashback. Japanese players use it whenever they can, but it's quite easy to avoid getting slashbacked; which is why you rarely see them.

[deadite]

I'm expecting hold tech in this one. No reason not to put it.