[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[ZeroRaider]

Well forgive us for not being you, Star.

But honestly, guys. I'm not holding my breath on anything until they release some more details on the mechanics and such. At this point, its just looking like we're all just arguing for the sake of arguing on just "what if"s.

I mean, couldn't this stuff be on a different thread?

[Digital Watches]

Idk. I'm probably just misinterpreting your posts, but you kinda make it sound like those top players are robots that never drop anything ever...

Mistakes can obviously be diminished through practice/experience/skill, but is it ever truly a non-factor altogether?

If you sit at home practicing something for hours on end, does it eliminate any and all possibilities of you ever screwing it up in the heat of the moment?

It just doesn't strike me as some trivial barrier for new players that you can eventually surpass and never be bothered by again. It seems prevalent to some degree at all levels, even if the degree is inversely proportional to said level.

It's the human element. Input errors. Questionable moves. You can't really eliminate it. It's essentially the foundation that all competition is based on. Who will screw up less; who's closer to that unattainable goal of perfection.

I'm sure the top-level players of any game screw up their inputs sometimes. But I wouldn't argue that it's a common occurrence, or that something interesting is happening. What's interesting about competitive games is definitely the human element.

Specifically, the appeal of a true competitive game is that perfection is a bullshit concept. It's not just unattainable, it's not a valid goal. I often use the example of bowling to illustrate this. Bowling is not a competitive game. You can play against other people, and compare scores, but ultimately if you bowl a perfect game, you bowl a perfect game. There's nothing your opponent can do to stop you from doing that. If you both bowl a perfect game, what happens? I'm sure there's some resolution if there are bowling competitions, I'm not particularly knowledgeable about that, but it doesn't change the fact that there was no interplay between two opponents.

Don't get me wrong, execution barriers do not make a game bad, and in fact some of the interesting aspects of fighting games could be described as execution barriers. But the act of overcoming an execution barrier during a combo, or to execute a special move, is not a competitive thing. There's no scenario in which not being able to do something would be a better choice than being able to do it, so it's not an inherently interesting choice in a competitive sense. It's simply something you have to grind out.

Every time you've won because someone dropped their combo, or because someone couldn't do the thing they wanted to do, you lost a chance to learn how to beat it. You've lost the chance to figure out what would happen if they didn't screw up. What would you do if the player you were fighting could do the move they were trying to do at any given time? Does that mean they should always win? Obviously not.

[Circuitous]

I'm not sure Daigo would have the balls to DP an overhead unless the execution barrier was a single button, jussayin.

And there's more to GG's execution barrier than just making beginners sad, and giving people that get off on learning rock hard erections.

It limits your character's strengths in it's own way. If Ky's DP could be cancelled for 25 meter at ANY stage in it's animation, that would change a lot of how you think about his wakeup game wouldn't it?

The scenario you've presented has no bearing on the argument, as Ky's DP doesn't have an FRC window of "any frame." That's a fundamental change to a system mechanic, not an execution simplification.

[Digital Watches]

I'm not sure Daigo would have the balls to DP an overhead unless the execution barrier was a single button, jussayin.

Why not? If you have reversal timing down, and a DP will win, you should do the DP. If it's not possible, that's another story, but when there's time to buffer it, I simply don't see the argument as to why how hard it is to pull off should make a difference to someone who's mastered doing it.

And there's more to GG's execution barrier than just making beginners sad, and giving people that get off on learning rock hard erections.

It limits your character's strengths in it's own way. If Ky's DP could be cancelled for 25 meter at ANY stage in it's animation, that would change a lot of how you think about his wakeup game wouldn't it?

I don't see how that's relevant to the present conversation. That's an actual change to the gameplay, not just a change in execution difficulty.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Klein]

Why not? If you have reversal timing down, and a DP will win, you should do the DP. If it's not possible, that's another story, but when there's time to buffer it, I simply don't see the argument as to why how hard it is to pull off should make a difference to someone who's mastered doing it.

It's not so much how hard, as to how long it takes and how hard it is. Last I recall, a direction input takes a frame, so three frames and a result vs one. Assume you react with only one or two frames to act, you can either block or use a button or charge input based DP. Yeah, that's a really extreme example, but the little things can make a difference, no?

Also, reacting to an overhead means it's not a difference between winning or losing whether you DP or not because you can just block.

I don't see how that's relevant to the present conversation. That's an actual change to the gameplay, not just a change in execution difficulty.

Probably a bad example, but the intention was to make clear that FRCs are an execution barrier, and a necessary gameplay mechanic at the same time.

[Digital Watches]

Right, so we're now talking about whether the change would have side effects. That's a completely valid argument for a given particular change, and I actually don't think DP motions are within the realm of things that really represent a necessary change to any particular game. The argument that something should take 3+ frames from neutral to execute versus 1 or 0 is one I've heard before and a pretty good one, so we don't have a specific disagreement on that particular thing, and I've actually mentioned before that making FRC windows bigger would change the gameplay of GG in serious and problematic ways. My point isn't that there are any mechanics in particular that drastically need reworking. My point is that if there's a way to eliminate an execution barrier without side effects, it's always good to do so.

[Klein]

My point is that if there's a way to eliminate an execution barrier without side effects, it's always good to do so.

Then yeah I totally agree, lol. I just wasn't clear on that, my mistake.

I really hate execution barriers just for execution barriers' sake. But I do think DP motions have a reason for being, rather than just for screwing noobs.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I figured I'd just drop this here: GG+R has an "Easy Input" option in the Button settings. I honestly don't notice a difference with it on/off but I'd assume it's some kind of input buffer.

[Klein]

I figured I'd just drop this here: GG+R has an "Easy Input" option in the Button settings. I honestly don't notice a difference with it on/off but I'd assume it's some kind of input buffer.

GG and/or CSE had that on the PSP didn't they?

[Moy_X7]

How good can you hit confirm against players you've never played against?

lol, what does that even mean? You should be able to hit-confirm regardless of your opponent being the AI or a "player you've never played against", no matter the situation.

As for the whole execution discussion, I say that DPs/reversals should never be as simple as pushing a single button. Imagine if Tager's 720 could be done with one button, that would mean that he'd no longer need to buffer it through a jump, through an attack, or through blockstun. If you used an overhead against him and he's able react to it by blocking high, what's to stop him from reacting to it using his 1-button 720? Since 720 requires that you actually leave the ground if you're not going to use something else to buffer it, it's impossible to react to an OH with 720, unless it was turned into a 1 or 2 button command.

The same goes for DPs, if you can react to an overhead by blocking high, what's to stop you from just using a 1-button DP instead of blocking high? Sure there are people out there who can input the 623 motion in a couple of frames but if that were a common case, then we'd be seeing many more people DP overheads instead of reacting to them by blocking high.

As some people have pointed out, I have a feeling that some moves have certain inputs in order to restrict their use and not have them be too strong and allow the player to just throw them out there. Reversals/DPs are some of those moves with the more complicated commands.

My real only gripe with GG is the 1-2F FRCs. It really puts me off not being able to do them consistently after I've practiced them for months. Call me lazy but I sure as hell would like to spend my time on something else if I'm not seeing results after months of training. I know it takes practice to master them but if it takes me a whole year just to master that ONE very essential mechanic, then I'd rather just spend my time somewhere else. Most people just want to play the game at a decent level without having to spend most of their time mastering combos/FRCs instead of actually getting experience and learning match-ups and you know, have fun and not be frustrated over something they can't do after months.

Some people are just too stuck in their "hardcore/elite" mentality and fail to realize that if certain gameplay elements were made simpler, it would attract more players, which in the end would equal out to having a bigger community for that game. However, I know there are some things that shouldn't be too simple or else they would really change how the game plays in the end.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Moy_X7

[Sym_]

Be honest: Do you think Daigo is worried about botching the input at any moment when he needs a DP?

Sure. It's exactly the right kind of execution barrier: The kind that derives its difficulty from an interaction between the two players actually playing the game. There's nothing I need to go to training mode to grind out to be able to block an attack, but it's still something that's hard to do sometimes, because it involves watching what's actually going on in the game and making a hard choice at lightning speed. Reflexes make it interesting. Mental game makes it interesting. It's not a game you could play with cards, because the speed aspect of it is genuinely interesting. I can't think of a change to blocking that would make it easier but not stupid. But we agree that there's no particular difficult execution barrier per se here. Hitting back or down-back is pretty much entirely simple, and yet because of what blocking does, and how opponents can try to mess with your ability to block their attacks, it is an interesting gameplay mechanic that involves all of these aspects. Blocking being hard plays to my point perfectly.

I can tell you this, Daigo is definitely more worried about in SF2 than he is in SF4...

Does it play to your point?

A normal block does not have the same benefits as slashback. Slashbacking lets you punish things your opponent may attempt that a regular block could not. Arc was smart enough to prevent it from becoming too strong by implementing 3 drawbacks to this new mechanic...make it difficult to execute (very small window), disable it on wakeup to keep the oki aspect of the game just as strong AND it leaves you wide open if you miss timed it.

If we removed JUST the execution barrier from slashback, that everyone evidently hates, slashback would have become far too prominent in Accent Core.

[Klein]

Yo Moy, my advice is learn execution through pvp fights, and training mode. Every time I've taken on an execution hurdle it's been after a while of fun matchup and character learning in real fights. I'd recommend dealing with imperfect execution and just playing for your fundamentals for a while with some training mode on the side.

And I'd say hit confirming with players you know, vs players you don't IS different. I get used to my close pals blocking simple mixups, so I sometimes miss a hit just because the opponent was in my mind gonna block and set me up for a command grab or some such.

Ideally that won't affect you, but it's one of those things you can miss.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I liked the way Just inputs worked in SC4. They weren't (usually) necessary at all for doing your combo string, but they did do stuff way faster and for slightly more damage. Not to mention they usually had unique SFX that made them cooler.

It was a good way of rewarding super-good execution without making it a barrier to beginning players.

GG and/or CSE had that on the PSP didn't they?

I don't believe CSE has it. I don't know anything about the PSP versions of anything, I don't have them on my Vita.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Narroo]

To be fair, I think part of the problem here is differentiating between good and bad execution barriers.

Certain types of execution issues do enhance gameplay. Someone wrote an article awhile ago about it here, I think, but I can't find it.

For instance, take button inputs. With a game like Guilty Gear, you run out of buttons and eventually have to place specials onto motion inputs. Consider the following: reverse DP motions and running; Going from 66 to 421 is much slower than going from 4, blocking, to 421. Your opponent knows this so when dashing he knows that your ability to quickly pull out that reverse DP motion is hindered if you're running, and enhanced when blocking. This can play into how you approach and respect your opponent.

Motion inputs for specials are both necessary and can be implemented in such a way to enhance positioning and options. This is a good execution barrier because it is unavoidable and is used to enhance strategy.

A bad execution barrier is making 1-frame button windows to make basic moves or specials arbitrarily hard, such as FRC. There's no reason for it. It's doesn't really affect gameplay other than: "Can this guy do a FRC?" And as someone pointed out, making a move balanced because few people can do it is not real balance.

We're not arguing that the game should consist of a single button. That's impossible. Nor can the game read your mind. That would be awesome though. We're arguing against arbitrary barriers that add no depth to the game, but rather require you to hit training mode for 5 hours for the sake of training mode, which is boring and pointless. Training mode is good to practice your skills to enhance player quality. But, that doesn't training mode time should be artificially inflated for no reason.

EDIT: And just to make this clear, this means that things like 1 button DPs would be bad, unless the game is designed around it like Persona.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Narroo

[Moy_X7]

Yo Moy, my advice is learn execution through pvp fights, and training mode. Every time I've taken on an execution hurdle it's been after a while of fun matchup and character learning in real fights. I'd recommend dealing with imperfect execution and just playing for your fundamentals for a while with some training mode on the side.

And I'd say hit confirming with players you know, vs players you don't IS different. I get used to my close pals blocking simple mixups, so I sometimes miss a hit just because the opponent was in my mind gonna block and set me up for a command grab or some such.

Ideally that won't affect you, but it's one of those things you can miss.

Mmm, I guess I shouldn't be so hellbent on trying to learn how to FRC perfectly. Gotta learn how to crawl before you teach yourself to walk, right?

As for hit-confirming only against certain opponents, isn't that more of a bad habit than anything? I treat the AI as I would a human player (as far as hit-confirming goes at least). So even though I know that the AI can't block certain things at certain times, I won't just auto-pilot into the next move because I know that will hurt me when playing an actual player who blocks that one certain thing at that one certain time.

[Digital Watches]

Slashback is a great example of something that would be worse if they removed the execution barrier. It's also a great example of an interactive execution barrier. I can tell you that if you go into training mode and set up a dummy to do a move at a predictable interval, it doesn't take a lot of time to figure out how to slashback it consistently. The thing that makes it hard is that you don't have a predictable interval, and I agree that if it were easier, the game would be worse. Side effects like crazy

Like I've been saying all along: I'm not arguing that execution barriers are inherently bad, or that all of them are bad. But an execution barrier that all the pros can just straight up get past and play as though it were not a thing most of the time? Probably shouldn't be a barrier if there's any way to make it easier. Then again, if some robotronic player who could slashback everything consistently came along, it would probably make the game way worse, and that might mean it's actually a bad mechanic. Then again, that might just be a human limits thing. Point is, if we can identify a way to make something easier without changing how it works, we should. Identifying things that would work differently if we changed them is not really disagreeing with me on that.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Sym_]

How many 1 frame window frcs are there? I'm just curious, because the only frc point I've ever felt that was actually difficult is dizzy's icespike.

I don't play every character but of the ones I have spent time with it really only took a few days to get it down fairly consistently. Now I'm not saying I can land it 100% and never miss it in a match. But none of them have ever felt overwhelming either and through training and playing casuals I got them down pretty well.

The complaints of the FRC difficulty here just sound totally exaggerated, honestly.

[Sophisticat]

I entirely agree with Digital in that execution becomes more trivial later on as everyone's practiced their stuff so much it's a non-event. I find FRCs rather easy these days myself.

I disagree that it has no competitive value, though. An opponent who rarely drops inputs and can execute just about anything the game throws at him has an edge. In learning Slayer, I've come to the point where I need to learn his IAD j.K -> j.K (or other 5h relaunch -> IAD) combos to do more damage, but am unable to do them consistently. My dmg output would definitely heighten if I could nail them, though. I know many in the local community would find my Slayer harder to deal with if I could deal the extra dmg these combos offer.

But overall, lowering the execution barrier also lowers the barrier to entry for those who wish to play the game at a high level. So the question is whether to limit the pool of "top" players (those who have gone through the pain of learning the execution), or to open up the game and make it more about strategy and decisions off the bat? Let's face it, you're not really thinking about strats and decisions for at least the first couple months in your FG career...

As for me, I'm all for lowering non-essential execution barriers as Digital suggests. That seems pretty logical to me.

[Klein]

Mmm, I guess I shouldn't be so hellbent on trying to learn how to FRC perfectly. Gotta learn how to crawl before you teach yourself to walk, right?

As for hit-confirming only against certain opponents, isn't that more of a bad habit than anything? I treat the AI as I would a human player (as far as hit-confirming goes at least). So even though I know that the AI can't block certain things at certain times, I won't just auto-pilot into the next move because I know that will hurt me when playing an actual player who blocks that one certain thing at that one certain time.

Yeah, it's totally just complacency, but it's something to be aware of that can happen by accident.

A bad execution barrier is making 1-frame button windows to make basic moves or specials arbitrarily hard, such as FRC. There's no reason for it. It's doesn't really affect gameplay other than: "Can this guy do a FRC?" And as someone pointed out, making a move balanced because few people can do it is not real balance.

FRCs are an effective limitation, making them not arbitrary.

An arbitrary execution barrier is an absurd super input, like Dizzy's 2864 or Justice's randomness. I could remember wrong about Justice, but you get the point.

[SolxBaiken]

A normal block does not have the same benefits as slashback. Slashbacking lets you punish things your opponent may attempt that a regular block could not. Arc was smart enough to prevent it from becoming too strong by implementing 3 drawbacks to this new mechanic...make it difficult to execute (very small window), disable it on wakeup to keep the oki aspect of the game just as strong AND it leaves you wide open if you miss timed it.

If we removed JUST the execution barrier from slashback, that everyone evidently hates, slashback would have become far too prominent in Accent Core.

Wouldn't that just put it in the same position as the Parry system from SF3?

You also don't define what "removing the execution barrier" entails; if we increase the window ever so slightly, I don't think it'd be the end of the world, that'd just make it a mechanic used more (I've seen tons of matches from both Japan and America and the number of Slash Backs used is very low, and that's not even taking into account the number of successful ones), enabling it on wake up would be no different from doing a DP on wake up would it not? Since you have to time and more importantly commit to it, and if you do it wrong well they opponent [should] make you pay for it. I won't even ponder a safe option lol.

Also outside of execution, I think you need to think of it in the larger scale of things, for example in Battle Fantasia with Gachi (a Parry/Slash Back mechanic) is how you get your bigger combos and punishes, however despite this you also have to deal with highly variable outcomes due to different options coming from both players states and such. So making a Slash Back simpler could result in making the pay off less where as I hope that the current pay off for them is huge for the amount of trouble needed to get one (other wise might as well just block or instant block, no?)

Honestly if they were going to drop a system, I hope it's Slash Backs, they aren't need and I feel [or at least from what I've observed] don't add as much to the gameplay as I think they initially hoped.

Also I have no interest in talking about Xrd, I'm talking specifically about AC since this seemed like a prime moment to ask about said mechanic.

[Digital Watches]

Yeah, I agree that FRCs aren't that hard, and I, too, like most people who have played this game for a long time, can do the ones I care about pretty much every time. I just don't see what the problem would be if they were suddenly trivial to do for new players who hadn't put the time in. It would open up that choice to them in matches, which is a good thing for everyone.

[Klein]

enabling it on wake up would be no different from doing a DP on wake up would it not?

You can't DP a predictable but powerful oki setup.

[Moy_X7]

How many 1 frame window frcs are there? I'm just curious, because the only frc point I've ever felt that was actually difficult is dizzy's icespike.

I don't play every character but of the ones I have spent time with it really only took a few days to get it down fairly consistently. Now I'm not saying I can land it 100% and never miss it in a match. But none of them have ever felt overwhelming either and through training and playing casuals I got them down pretty well.

The complaints of the FRC difficulty here just sound totally exaggerated, honestly.

Ky's Stunedges all have a 1-2F FRC point (trying to learn how to play him)

Call it an exaggeration but this is the first time I've complained about an execution issue, I have no problem with execution when it comes to every iteration of BB, P4A, and KoF. None of those games have anything nearly as difficult as an FRC. Maybe P4A with Yukiko's 5BB > TK 236A+B, since you don't get that much time to buffer the TK 236A+B from the almost non-existent hitstop from 5BB.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Moy_X7

[hipikachu]

I don't believe CSE has it. I don't know anything about the PSP versions of anything, I don't have them on my Vita.

He might be referring to the increased buffer window on diagonal inputs that was introduced in the PSP ver. of CS2. It was optional, of course.

[Klein]

Ky's Stunedges all have a 1-2F FRC point (trying to learn how to play him)

Call it an exaggeration but this is the first time I've complained about an execution issue, I have no problem with execution when it comes to every iteration of BB, P4A, and KoF. None of those games have anything nearly as difficult as an FRC. Maybe P4A with Yukiko's 5BB > TK 236A+B, since you don't get that much time to buffer the TK 236A+B from the almost non-existent hitstop from 5BB.

Difficulty is subjective, different people will have issues with different things. My main issue is Slayer's delayed airdash after BBU>5HS, but FRCs I can usually get down to a 50% success rate within minutes. The only thing I can really give you is good wishes :/