[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

The SF community was just as much part of the arcade scene though.

In fact arcades had tons of shit talk from what I remember.

[STenSatsu]

I'd go well beyond that and say that any fighting game nowadays NEED to have in-depth tutorials about its game mechanics; in the case of guilty gear, that's ranging from defensive moves to rc's and frc's to impossible dusts to fastfall to jump install. It all needs to be in there if people are to be pulled into the game. Arc Sys really needs to get off of this arcade game mentality, because outside of japan, it doesn't work.

To be fair, they've already gotten off this mentality. BB has had a top class (for 2d fighters) tutorial and challenge mode since CS1 iirc. The fact is also Arc doesn't really have a reason to care about anyone outside of Japan. Just not enough people stick around with their games in NA comparatively. And generally none of that is due to bad tutorials or difficulty to get into.

[Klaige]

It's possible to be competitive without being a dick. Plenty of scenes have strong players and weak players who play each other and enjoy themselves. It's a matter of having some damn social skills and making the social environment inviting even for the people who aren't going to win a lot. There are a lot of game mechanics in GG and other games that are needlessly difficult, sure, but people still play and enjoy games they're not immediately good at. Trying to shift the blame for people becoming disinterested to the game mechanics makes both worse scenes and worse games.

I wont join the debate on system mechanics or what should stay or go or be made easier/harder because frankly the vast majority of regular posters here either aren't mature enough to do it intelligently or have no idea what the are talking about and just pull things out of their ass. That being said, I will touch on this topic because it involves what will arguably be the single most important thing people need to realize about a brand new guilty gear being given to us: We as players need to be opening and welcome to anyone and everyone of all levels who is taking an interest in the game.

There are not many players who were around when the GG community was trying to gain some relevance and be an accepted part of the fighting game tournament world. Throughout XX and #R the game and it's players were looked upon as black sheep and largely considered a bunch of scrubs by the majority of players from the bigger games at the time. It wasn't the greatest feeling, but the palyer base for the most part did the smart thing: they didn't worry or care about the people who didn't like the game or like the players. They chose to worry about themselves and enjoy their own game and own community, and anytime new blood showed up taking an interest in guilty gear they were pretty much universally welcomed in because all most of the players really wanted was more people to help the game and it's scene grow.

Somewhere along the way the GG playerbase forgot how that all came around, and we started to repeat the same agressive and dickheaded attitudes that we dealt with upon coming into the scene. Instead of trying to help people or ease them over the initial hump of the learning curve the general response to people who cried about the execution or the difficulty was to think of them as lazy scrubs and write them off as a nuisance. This mentality continued on into Blazblues release. GG players chose to forget that we came into the scene with a pretty broken game (XX) and that all those new players were looked down upon as being scrubs who couldnt hang with the real games (Capcom, Namco, etc). The community let the negative and ignorant viewpoint that BB was a dumbed down and weak version of GG bring a new game down. I'm including myself in this story, I said these things and helped contribute to the poor attitude that not only really hurt Blazblue as a franchise getting off the ground in the US, but helped divide the arc-sys player base further and push it deeper into the dead zone of competitive fighting games. I freely admit I was one of those in the wrong, and I am making a point to learn from the mistakes in my attitude towards new players and other games in general, which is exactly what every person who is excited for GGXRD should do as well.

I understand the excitement and the desire to discuss all sorts of things from potential gameplay changes to story tidbits, to the new graphics and character designs. Being excited about a new title will bring all these things to the table, and that's not a bad thing. But if there's one thing every player here can start doing, and I mean right this damn minute, it's that you can work on checking your ego's a bit and broadening your viewpoint about the potential that is being offered up by finally getting a brand new guilty gear and not just a version update. It's easy to take the selfish veteran route, and talk about how the game absolutely shouldn't be dumbed down in any way, and that if the new players can't step to the challenge then too bad for them. That kind of toxic viewpoint does nothing good for the game, literally nothing. We have no idea what GGXRD is going to be yet, we've seen a short tralier that was almost entirely for cinematic purposes. We've been given exactly zero confirmation on any gameplay aspects yet, and while we should all be excited and curious about these things, it's of the utmost importance that every player keep an open mind about things that can (and likely will) change that could help grow the game and it's player base.

By far the best thing anyone who is a GG fan can do is to get rid of the elitest attitude, to embrace the idea that maybe toning down some execution requirements or making the game a bit more simple or accessible could be the best thing that's ever happened to the franchise in terms for become a relevant competitive game in the west again. It's perfectly find to be a critical thinker and to analyze the potential ramifications of changing things about our favorite game, but do it with an open mind, and don't sit there and immediately shit on any idea that might make the game more appealing to a wider range of players. Many of us thought that way about BB, and we all turned out to be dead wrong as that's a game with a ton of depth and has an excellent foundation behind it.

Basically if you feel the need to be a dick or lord your status as an "OG Player" over potential new players because you don't think they deserve a chance to have an easier time learning a new game, then consider that you are in fact one of the biggest parts of the problem, not the new players and certainly not the new game. I'm not directing this at anyone specific nor am I calling out the entire site, this is just a genuine PSA to encourage everyone to be more open minded and to above all be FRIENDLY to the new players that are bound to show up looking to take an interest in the series and looking to learn about it and how to play it. We don't have any information on what to think about gameplay or changes yet, but we do have all the ability to start making this a good community and an inviting place for new players to come be a part of.

It only takes one loudmouth prick to deter an entire group of people from taking real interest in a competitive game. Keep that in mind before you get up on your soapbox and tell everyone why anything that isn't as hard or complicated as the GGXX series is garbage.

I won't deny that the worry that GG could end up a shell of itself by being overly simplified is a possibilty, anything is possible with a brand new game and new engine. I guess my point to this would be, if that is a concern then it's not all that necessary to vocalize it loudly as interest among a new group is starting to grow. Like I said, critical thinking and intelligent analysis of potential changes and information are a good thing and should be encouraged and convincing people to not speak their mind on that level is not the intent of my post. Fans voicing concern over things that may seem leery or potentially a bad change is a natural thing and sometimes devs even listen (albeit rarely) so it's a valid thing to do as long as it's done the right way.

Again my main point here is to keep an open mind. Even if down the road it's discovered something is being changed drastically or something appears overly simplified, that is the time to resist the urge to blow up and cry foul over the situation. Keep an open mind and consider that with every change good, bad, or indifferent things can and will happen. Keeping and open mind and not casting blame towards new or casual players is what i want to see avoided, not good intelligent players voicing what can likely be a valid criticism to a game in development. Like i said, this ins't an indictment of everyone as being elitest assholes, merely a suggestion to consider your viewpoint and attitude and how it might effect the potential growth of arc-sys games.

Again i could give some specific examples of system mechanics or gameplay changes that might simplify or change, but in the end make the game even better, but those discussions tend to devolve into trolling and nonsense around here, so I'm keeping my point simple and general to the attitude of the community. At the end of the day, if the game ends up super dumbed down and a worse game we'll be back where we started playing +R instead with a tiny scene, so in essence, keeping an upbeat and friendly attitude to come off as welcoming to new players is a freeroll here. If it all ends up a trainwreck of a game then we won't have to worry about it, but if things turn out well (and I honestly think they will), the player base will be that much better off for keeping an open mind and being a solid friendly community.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Chaoschao222]

Damn, son....

[Hecatom]

snip

I agree with your points, but i believe that the fear of many people at the thought of the game being simplified is not necesarily an elitism thing.

One of the great things of GG is the great room of exploration and versatility of the characters, and all of this comes from the great tool set that they have access from their on moveset to the universal options that all of them share. This includes stuff like the FRC's for example, this open options not only for combos, but for mixups, maneuverability, make some moves more safe, in other words it expands the array of stuff that you can use in your strategy increasing the depth of the game.

The fear is that GG in order to attract "casual" players ends removing elements that made it the great game that it is in the first place, that imo, is a valid concern.

[mAc Chaos]

It's hard to think of how they could replicate that exact kind of experience anyway. Most of those tend to be pleasing accidents. When so many years pass between games, you have so many people moving in and out of the team that the next game is practically a different beast altogether. Just look at Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3.

[Beautiful Death]

Holy fuck holy fuck holy fuck

Okay I'm not a fan of the graphics and that trailer music.....(as if that matters)

But goddamn I reeeaaaalllllllyyyyyy hope they don't make this really easy and simplify things. Like having a 10 frame buffer and supers are one button and stuff like that. I kinda am inclined to think that it will be easier/less hardcore because why would a modern fighting game not be uh, not so hardcore.

[Digital Watches]

Honestly I'm of the opinion that any change that can make the game easier without changing the choices players can make in the game is a good thing. Think about it honestly: What strategic choice is being made to play out differently by ramping up or down the execution requirements where it's possible to do so? Do you find it inherently interesting for a player to mess up at a critical moment and lose because of it? But the point is that that's not the issue at hand when it comes to community growth.

To everyone ever: Read Klaige's post, and then read it again, and then actually self-assess and think about times you've been a dick to new blood and ways you can improve. People want to do things more when they have positive experiences doing them. It doesn't matter how hard or easy a game it is, more people will play it if there's a positive, inviting community that people like being around. Be encouraging, be friendly, be likable, have fun, and let other people have fun. If you want real competition, you need a thriving scene, and if you want a thriving scene, you need an attitude that makes people want to play games with you. The reputation of a sketchy or insular community is much harder to get past than the difficulty of any game.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Sym_]

Do people forget that guilty gear was putting crazy numbers before SF4 dropped? I recall 120 man tournies at Final round and SB3. Apparently the game wasn't too hard back then?

[STenSatsu]

And mvc2, a game which had significantly more execution, was pulling 300. It was also a different time. Now SF4 and MVC3 are pulling triple the numbers of their predecessors at EVO and I would not be surprised if even P4 was pulling 120 at majors and that game is considered by many to be on 'life support'. That was also during the hey day of AC and FR was, iirc, considered one of the biggest GG tournaments in the country usually.

[h0mebas3]

Hey Everyone,

Sorry for the n00bish question but seeing the trailer definitely has me looking forward to the game. I've never played Guilty Gear though, I've always known it as that iconic legendary game and now I want to get familiar with it. Would you suggest playing Accent Core? I want to learn as much about the game, characters and lore as possible before the next installment arises. You give me homework, I promise to do it Thanks.

[Amadeus46Art]

In a word? /Yes/. Guilty Gear AC is readily available on all 3 major consoles (but we don't talk about the wii version), with netplay on PS3 and 360 if you're lucky enough to have a decent connection. It also rewards teaching fundamentals that will carry you over between all games. In addition, the version on PSN and XBL is AC+, which means it does actually come with a story mode, though it is one that takes place after the GGXX#R story mode.

[superscience890]

I've... Heard some things about the Wii version. Anyone care to elaborate?

[Amadeus46Art]

If I said "the input for a tyrant rave is a right uppercut followed by a left straight punch" would that explain it for you

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Hecatom gets what I say

And I really hope Daisuke goes all "FUCK U pachi u not touching my game's core". I want to play GUILTY GEAR, not something else.

And yes, I still want mah FRCs in GG.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Kyosuke Kagami

[superscience890]

What in the... Inputs pls

[SolxBaiken]

[silly Wii motions + waggle controls.jpg]

Although to be fair, you can play the game with a classic controller and an arcade stick = w=

[Afrikaan]

RC's is what set GG apart. FRC's, and FB's, devalue RC's and Super. I wouldn't be surprised if they do a big shake-up on those two mechanics and shift a lot of power back to the 50% meter point.

Or from an execution point of view, almost all FRC's, but like 3 or 4, could be made a FB and retain all the functionality, minus the difficulty.

This. Let's be honest people, when the head man himself say that a mechanic in his game was poorly implemented, there's a pretty damn high chance it'll get changed in some way shape or form in a revision. As much as we may moan about it I'm certainly not holding my breath on FRC's remaining the same.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

This. Let's be honest people, when the head man himself say that a mechanic in his game was poorly implemented, there's a pretty damn high chance it'll get changed in some way shape or form in a revision. As much as we may moan about it I'm certainly not holding my breath on FRC's remaining the same.

Wait, when did Daisuke say anything about FRCs?

[Hecatom]

He never did

[Kyosuke Kagami]

He never did

Then why would the heck FRCs be removed from the game?

So yes, i hope Pachi's shitty ideas go fuck a tree

[excelence]

I still believe if it's Arcsys plot is to train all the newcomer in dumbed down mechanic called BB ... then when the scene heated enough, they 'll throw them all to hell

... After 4~5 years, i think it's safe enough for them to survive GG >.>

[Rhapsody]

Sometimes I get mixed up with Kyousuke's and Hecatom's posts. You guys almost post similarly with your tone lol

I'm expecting GG to take a step back in some of its mechanics, just to lure people in. I have faith they won't take it too far, but I definitely can't see them taking +R as the base and building up from there. All I hope for is GG to feel the same in how much freedom you have in combos and neutral game. I liked how it wasn't too focused on landing that one meterless BnB.

Also curious on what they'll add for a comeback mechanic if they do decide one. I don't think GG needs one since the crazy build in tension leads into really hard hitting combos. But you never know, they might want to shake things up.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Dude, as long as they take #R as their base for Xrd, I'm okay with it.

If I want a simplified Arcsys game, I'd pick Blazblue.

[Hecatom]

A little late on this one.

It's hard to think of how they could replicate that exact kind of experience anyway. Most of those tend to be pleasing accidents. When so many years pass between games, you have so many people moving in and out of the team that the next game is practically a different beast altogether. Just look at Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3.

I don't know man, outside few little stuff like the jump install (or balance but all we know about that) everything on GG has been deliberated.

Sometimes I get mixed up with Kyousuke's and Hecatom's posts. You guys almost post similarly with your tone lol

Dunno how, i am more abrassive, and never talk about waifus or shit like that.

Dude, as long as they take #R as their base for Xrd, I'm okay with it.

If I want a simplified Arcsys game, I'd pick Blazblue.

That is something of what i like about their lineup right now, they have different games that are similar but at the same time offer different things to the players, not only on difficulty but style on gameplay while retaining that flavour.