[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Afro-Demon]

I never saw the problem with throw breaks in GG to be honest. They are already zero frame throws with like a 9-10 frame window to break. If a throw gets broken, it was either read or completely predictable.

As for why they weren't broken pre-^C, it's because throw were good for breaking a good turtler and getting knockdown, but that's it. Only a minority of throws can combo afterwards, and usually it was through a FRC. They didn't do a huge amount of damage, and about a 1/4 of the cast didn't even knockdown in the first place. (Jam, Johnny, probably more I'm not aware of)

Edited May 27, 2013 by Afro-Demon

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Dunno, I don't remember anyone complaining about the throws in previous GG games.

If you get thrown in them, you deserve it.

[TheRealBobMan]

I didn't didn't realize throw breaks were new to AC, but 1-frame throw breaks are hard enough to time anyway (since there's no telegraph from either player, it's entirely prediction at that speed). I always thought the 1-frame throw breaks were there just so that the game doesn't take a dump when both players try to throw at the same time, which seems pretty contradictory to what was just said.

[InWithTheAshes]

Shit, the breaks are one frame?

Well that explains a lot of things.

[mynus]

throw breaks are 2 frame windows. early break (neutral) and late break (disadvantage). And some chars pre AC had throws that led to death oki (ED, IN, MI to an extent).

[Horokei]

Shit, the breaks are one frame?

No, breaks are around 3 frames (or 2 frames if you don't count simultaneous throw).

[Chrome Homura]

What was the result of a simultaneous throw input pre-AC? Was it determined randomly, as it was in the ancient times?

[4r5]

Throws at same time resulted in both players getting their HS attacks, forward or back depending on what direction you used. Knowing whether your HS was faster or slower was pretty important. In Slash anyways.

In XX and #R, you could option-select throws with FD.

[Digital Watches]

Well, that and option-selecting it (for forward throws), though that's still important in AC.

[Xtra_Zero]

Ok so I tried bringing this up a long time ago back when AC started throw breaks, but I didn't get any response. We're already talking about it so might as well. What are your thoughts on throw breaks in GG and the AC change? Personally I think they were an unnecessary addition but the system that's currently implemented is pretty good as far as throw break systems go.

[4r5]

Addition of throwbreaks were somewhat inconsequential. Most people were OSing their throws anyways. Countering throws is still about being proactive rather than reactive. Just kinda wish that late breaks gave more advantage to the thrower and not let you late break throws that would have killed.

[Chrome Homura]

Why should a player's remaining lifebar determine whether or not they can break a throw? To me, that logic equates to the concept that one shouldn't be able to negate what would be lethal chip damage via FD. Defensive options are there for players to keep from losing, why should the amount of damage they've already taken restrict those options in any way?

[4r5]

Your first chance was to not let the throw situation happen at all. Your second chance was to beat the throw situation. A late break is your third chance, and after you have already been thrown. In any other GG you would of been dead. This would be like being able to block after getting hit. I know GG's latebreak is just a frame or two after being thrown, which is way stricter than even CvS2's break window, which is why I say it's mostly inconsequential. But the point still stands, you did get thrown, and throwing someone is no simple matter. Especially in GG which already provides guards against abusive tick-throw setups.

Remember that the purpose of the throw isn't to break guard, it is to force action. Stopping a throw should be about being proactive in play, not reactive. Notice in games with weaker throws pacing is much slower and defense and reactions dominate. They tend to have to makeup for their neutered throws else where, usually by giving everyone strong mixup options, which limits playstyle diversity, or introduce new mechanics like slow unblockable attacks which doesn't address the problem but instead add more room for new problems.

[Destin]

Guilty gear has enough anti throw options. It has jumping (which is always throw invul) it has a post block stun/knockdown throw invul (which means that you can't be thrown right after you come out of stuns, but you CAN throw your opponent), and it has backdashes.

Remember, most of the characters that has long throw ranges (being like, 3 pixels more), have slower jabs. Those with fast jabs has lower range. This way, a rushdown type characters must get in your face to throw you, but if on defense, often has to resort to a risky jab/jump/backdash to get out of a very well spaced throw, while my dizzy could sit somewhere around the area that you can't throw and she can. 3 pixels is admittedly not much, but I am willing to bet a good deal that it comes up quite a bit, and with throw breaks, it is somewhat nullified.

Now, this is because Guilty gear wasn't designed around throw breaks, if they have a good team and do a good job, it might work out fine. But why bother, let's have our balls deep throws that keep the pacing fast. Every game is neutering throws, they feel like they have no power or don't do much, and if they do you can break them almost on reaction or at the very least with really late OS's. Fuck that, guilty gear doesn't need it.

[reaVer]

Wait, they weren't in them?

Oh.

How did that work?

Easy, if both players attempted the throw at the exact same frame, neither would throw and their 5H or 6H would come out. This meant that whoever had the fastest 5H(robo ky) would get the counter hit on the opponent. The throw break is there to prevent such scenarios from occuring and the relaxed it a bit so GGXXAC close quarters wouldn't become about who could mash the H button the fastest. As you can see, I'm in favor of keeping them in.

[reaVer]

No, breaks are around 3 frames (or 2 frames if you don't count simultaneous throw).

Lets clarify that, the first frame is for mutual attempt which puts players back in neutral, the other 2 frames are relaxation frames where whoever is late breaks the throw at a disadvantage.

[Dandy J]

... Wouldn't that just make throws terribly terribly broken?

not only would you not be able to break them terribly, you wouldnt be able to break them at all!

[mynus]

not having throw breaks would be a horrible design choice not seen since....oh wait Guilty Gear up to Slash itself. Progress people.

[Digital Watches]

Meh. Neutral throwbreaks are a better resolution than hardslashes, but late throwbreaks I could take or leave.

[Destin]

not having throw breaks would be a horrible design choice not seen since....oh wait Guilty Gear up to Slash itself. Progress people.

Daisuke clearly wants to take it back to it's #R roots, so I guess a lot of that progress is going to revert back.

I guess I could agree with neutral frame throw breaks and no late buffer window throw break. That sounds reasonable. But if they do that, please don't make it look as horrible as it did in AC.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Well, some of that "progress", I can live without it.

If they remove Slashback I wouldn't miss it.

Force Breaks... well, chars are receiving shitloads of movements. I think a cleanup would be necessary, and if Force Breaks get removed in the process, I think it's just something natural.

But well, out of that, I don't see what else they would remove. Rest of the subsystems, they've been around since GG1 or GGX.

[TheRealBobMan]

Force Breaks can be an alternative for FRCs in some cases (EX move that cancels early even on whiff, etc). I'd rather see them get re-worked if necessary than removed.

They better not touch Slashback. A lot of people are saying they wouldn't care if it gets removed and it baffles me. Without Slashback, some traps would be pretty annoying to deal with. If Pot does 6H and I'm in a position where I need to block, I now have to IB > backdash to avoid Slidehead, and I might **** up that input. I'd rather take the chance of holding back and pressing S+H with a smaller window. The input is easier, the payoff is better, and a move at that speed is reactable once you're used to the telegraph.

Maybe Slashback seems too strong to some? ****, just punish it. Pot could always just cancel into Pot Buster if he expects the other guy to SB since there's only 2 frames of block stun and it'll work. (Actually, that's something I need to test - I wonder if a whiffed SB resets block stun and lets you get thrown since you can't block for 30 frames)

Maybe it's ok to get rid of since "no one uses it". Except for Fab and Koichi off the top of my head. And myself, not that I'm good at this game or anything. Maybe people just need to try using it more?

[Kyosuke Kagami]

too strong to some? More like people barely remembers it exists lol.

Some stuff I would like to see back from GG1:

-The momentum thing, when you can tackle someone after running certain distance (or full screen in some cases).

-Adding dash attacks (yeah, Sol was the only one who had this but it'd be interesting).

-LEVEL UP (so certain movements get improved properties or damage... in some way, this could remove Force Break).

-The capability to turn in mid air at will (yeah, I know P4A took this mechanic back).

[Destin]

Force Breaks can be an alternative for FRCs in some cases (EX move that cancels early even on whiff, etc). I'd rather see them get re-worked if necessary than removed.

They better not touch Slashback. A lot of people are saying they wouldn't care if it gets removed and it baffles me. Without Slashback, some traps would be pretty annoying to deal with. If Pot does 6H and I'm in a position where I need to block, I now have to IB > backdash to avoid Slidehead, and I might **** up that input. I'd rather take the chance of holding back and pressing S+H with a smaller window. The input is easier, the payoff is better, and a move at that speed is reactable once you're used to the telegraph.

Maybe Slashback seems too strong to some? ****, just punish it. Pot could always just cancel into Pot Buster if he expects the other guy to SB since there's only 2 frames of block stun and it'll work. (Actually, that's something I need to test - I wonder if a whiffed SB resets block stun and lets you get thrown since you can't block for 30 frames)

Maybe it's ok to get rid of since "no one uses it". Except for Fab and Koichi off the top of my head. And myself, not that I'm good at this game or anything. Maybe people just need to try using it more?

It's more like this. Aba has 2h, it was built to give her frame advantage into her further mixups. If you wanted to get out, you had to get out before the 2h, once that started, it started the ABA mixup minigame. Now in AC, you can SB the second hit. Does she have ways around this and such, sure! She has multiple other mixups she can go to. This is exactly the argument that I always heard in SFIII, there were so many mind games on every hit, which is great if you like that. But I never enjoyed the mixup in SFIII as much as I did a simple fireball trap in ST. Those always felt more intense, more interesting, because the game would break into multiple different small sub-games due to limited options. In 3s, there is a fairly complex mixup game that goes on with hits and fakes and parries, but it's mostly the same. In ST, there are various different simpler mixup games.

Guilty gear in many ways is the spiritual successor to ST. 1f Throws, fast pacing, and most importantly to me, real trap situations. Guilty gear has tons of oki situations where the game devolves (not in a bad way) from it's million option neutral to a very few choices for a few moments. This comes from moves ending in definable discrete endings. If ky does Big fireball, he can expect a mixup because it is going to give him + frames. With SB, he might have a mixup, or the opponent might slashback it. So in that case, he has to account for that with random other hits thrown in occasionally. But I was never of the persuasion that Ky should NEED to throw in those other moves. He knocked me down, he throws a big fireball frc, he deserves to get to play the Ky Mixup game, and let's see what he's got. If his name wasn't Final Showdown I was very confident I could block what came next, but honestly it was fun to try and block that. Taking away these guaranteed mixup situations with another maybe weakens offense and creates less of these rather fun mixup moments, at the advantage of an added layer prior. SB is only needed if the game is unable to balance these mixups and create real openings for all characters, which maybe was the case in AC(?), but it wasn't the case in #R. Additionally, the only reason you don't see a ton of slashbacks in japanese videos is because they don't use moves in situations that would be slashback bait. The slashback has already effected the meta, it has done it's work in many situations.

TL;DR - Slashbacks change the properties of moves that weren't designed around them being there. They just aren't NEEDED to mount an honest defense in most of the guilty gears. If they are included in the next game, the whole game needs to be designed around them, but I doubt that will be the case.

[Chrome Homura]

Guilty gear has tons of oki situations where the game devolves (not in a bad way) from it's million option neutral to a very few choices for a few moments. This comes from moves ending in definable discrete endings. If ky does Big fireball, he can expect a mixup because it is going to give him + frames. With SB, he might have a mixup, or the opponent might slashback it.

This situation is impossible, since you can't input a SB until about 10 frames or so (I'm not certain that's the exact number) after wakeup. If people could stop meaty oki setups this easily GGXXAC would have been a completely different game, and SB would not be so easily written off as it is now.

Additionally, the only reason you don't see a ton of slashbacks in japanese videos is because they don't use moves in situations that would be slashback bait. The slashback has already effected the meta, it has done it's work in many situations.

Would you consider Faust/Axl's 6H slashback bait? Because I'm pretty sure I rarely see a match video containing either of these characters where the FA/AX player in question doesn't use 6H at least once, and it tends to be either blocked normally or not blocked. I'm pretty sure there not being much SB usage in tournament play isn't due to a lack of legit opportunities for a punish if done successfully, it's more that FAB is pretty much the only player with the balls to go for SBs on a consistent basis.