[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Kitsoru]

Why...

Would anyone want any of the AC+ story to be canon? D:

I can't understand this mentality. You want to be back in 2004 when the story barely colluded at all?? AC+ had 3 different endings per character for you to choose from. If you still can't find anything in 3 different endings to satisfy you even a little, then.. Iunno man. What do you want. (What I'm saying is, there's a line between 'I don't like the official route being taken with a character' and 'This character didn't follow my exact headcanon wishes I've had since XX, therefore scrap it all'.

The main reason I would want at least some aspects of AC+ to carry over, is because it actually shed some interesting light on some of the side characters. For example, the above noted thing regarding May finding out about her ancestry, and Venom allowing the Assassin's Guild to be dissolved (which would just do more to go along with what Slayer intended originally from XX) and FINALLY getting over both Zato and Millia is a nice thing, as well.

Besides, since again, X/XX/AC is all "Gaiden" anyway, it's just up to Ishiwatari to decide exactly which parts he wants to incorporate into the next game.

See, I was under the impression that GGXrd was going to serve as both a sequel to GG2 as well as the X/XX series, hence the name "Xrd" (3rd + X?).

To me, that'd make the most sense, since this game actually represents the best chance Ishiwatari has to compile the GG storyline and all of its various threads together, pick the ones that work and then start again with a more "cohesive" story.

This dude's got it. I uh, wouldn't call BB 'concise' though, lol.

I'd like an extensive GG history thing in Xrd. Even if it's just in text form, something that details everything that has occurred prior to this game.

I agree, but I don't think it's something that will come in-game. Most of that stuff has come with the (still untranslated 5+ years later wtf) novels and short stories contained in material collections; I could also see it being done via OVA. But it's not really the kind of thing a fighting game's gameplay is adept for. I think it's still really important that we get those answers though- how exactly did Frederick get converted, what happened leading up to the Crusades, and how did they get tipped off. I've always thought an OVA would be optimal to tell this part of the story.

I don't think Ishiwatari has a privilege to regard those games as "Gaiden" after Overture's underwhelming sales.

...That really has nothing to do with the overarching storyline, though. Just the lack of the supporting characters. He's not going to suddenly decide to make the Colony trio the main characters because that one game did poorly (which let's be real, had more to do with the gameplay itself than the story even if story/character addition played a part; plus we know the character part was a legal issue anyway and not a conscious decision).

[redsilversnake]

AC+ had 3 different endings per character for you to choose from.

AC+ only had two endings per character. X+ and the pre-AC XX games were the ones with three for each character.

[Kitsoru]

AC+ only had two endings per character. X+ and the pre-AC XX games were the ones with three for each character.

Ohh yes you're right, my bad. Was just going through X+ stories so that was on mind.

Regardless; my point about the 'they didn't do it my way so it shouldn't have been done at all' mentality stands.

[SolxBaiken]

I can't understand this mentality. You want to be back in 2004 when the story barely colluded at all?? AC+ had 3 different endings per character for you to choose from. If you still can't find anything in 3 different endings to satisfy you even a little, then.. Iunno man. What do you want. (What I'm saying is, there's a line between 'I don't like the official route being taken with a character' and 'This character didn't follow my exact headcanon wishes I've had since XX, therefore scrap it all'.

You can't understand, so instead of reaching out, you insult and assume lol.

My distaste for AC+'s story has NOTHING to do with "headcanon wishes" as you call it. The simple fact is [i found] AC+ to be a contrived piece of turd. With writing and logic that felt like something I'd see in lesser narrative fighters like Street Fighter, not the quality that Arc stumpled to establish in [the excellent] X+ and [pretty good] XX, with a bunch of endings that either didn't alter the prior status quo in any [significant] way, or worst of all just didn't make all that much sense. Let's examine Baiken; you get 1 ending where she becomes a deranged psycho killer because...because...JUST BECAUSE! There's no real buildup or satisfactory explanation and it reeks of something that was thought up as the final draft for the script was due in 5 minutes. Next we have her other ending where she travels with Anji to...to...do the thing she was already doing [pursue That Man], this is another sloppy plot line that isn't so much "bad" as it is "disappointing". I mean prior to this, at the end of XX Anji became the latest minion for That Man, this could've lead to an infinitely more interesting character arc but instead we get a resolution with about as much fizzle as week old flat soda. That Man despite being a key figure and unified antagonist for the series is a HUGE enigma, especially when you consider we don't know about this full inner circle STILL [i-No, Raven, and a still unidentified 3rd member].

Now don't get me wrong, AC+ has SOME cool possibilities [i would totally entertain the unholy union of Baiken, Chipp, and Venom] but as a whole the story was a colossal turd. Also if you bothered to interpret the rest of my original comment, I was actually opened to essentially "starting over" which is basically what Overture did by going back to the original timeline. The X-verse is very twisted and mangled, and with a now more lore focused Arc and with it being so long since, I think this is a good point to do a "refresher" course of sorts by glossing over the major past points while pursuing a new direction, without trying to make it ll work.

At the end of the day, I don't care what they do, I'll still play it and [hopefully] enjoy it, but just because of that doesn't mean I'm not going to call turds when I see them. But hey, that's just my opinion, and we all know how those work online!

[TheRealBobMan]

Baiken wanted to kill That Man right? I think the only reason she would team up with Anji, who is That Man's flunky, is because all three of them are actually Axl. And so is everyone else (including Roger and the Jellyfish Pirates).

Sol is the only character that isn't Axl, and that's because he's Freddie Mercury.

[Volt]

Baiken wanted to kill That Man right? I think the only reason she would team up with Anji, who is That Man's flunky, is because all three of them are actually Axl. And so is everyone else (including Roger and the Jellyfish Pirates).

Sol is the only character that isn't Axl, and that's because he's Freddie Mercury.

That makes less sense than Chipp wanting to be a president and you know it.

[Kitsoru]

I still totally endorse the whole 'GG1 Axl is the true Axl after he got all buffed up through time adventures' theory. GG1 Axl for Xrd plz.

(Also; I actually recently noticed that the Chipp wanting to be President thing has been around since X+. I thought it was weird in AC+ too because I don't recall it popping up in XX unless my memory is just fuzzy, but since it was there as early as X it makes much more sense now.)

Anyway:

The simple fact is [i found] AC+ to be a contrived piece of turd. With writing and logic that felt like something I'd see in lesser narrative fighters like Street Fighter, not the quality that Arc stumpled to establish in [the excellent] X+ and [pretty good] XX, with a bunch of endings that either didn't alter the prior status quo in any [significant] way, or worst of all just didn't make all that much sense.

Important to note: We're all aware that Daisuke was basically removed from involvement, apart from probably vague story-planning notes, of writing AC, right..? That's pretty important to consider when comparing it to the writing of things he was directly involved in. Basically, they knew 'we have to connect this from XX to Overture' and that's it. Unfortunately, that means the characters prevented from appearing in Overture got a crap end of the writing stick, because they didn't have much to go on as to their futures.

That said, that's a really really broad statement to make that in a cast of 25 characters so much of it was ooc or terrible to the point that it might as well be scrapped.

Let's examine Baiken; you get 1 ending where she becomes a deranged psycho killer because...because...JUST BECAUSE! There's no real buildup or satisfactory explanation and it reeks of something that was thought up as the final draft for the script was due in 5 minutes.

You mean how her entire story previous to this has been about her buildup of a bloodlusting, revenge-treading path, which multiple characters point out and warn her about in XX?

Next we have her other ending where she travels with Anji to...to...do the thing she was already doing [pursue That Man], this is another sloppy plot line that isn't so much "bad" as it is "disappointing". I mean prior to this, at the end of XX Anji became the latest minion for That Man, this could've lead to an infinitely more interesting character arc but instead we get a resolution with about as much fizzle as week old flat soda.

So then, you don't like that her story went down the revenge-fueled path... And you also don't like that it went down the path of calming down somewhat and instead of the lone bloodfilled path, choosing traveling with her one major character relationship, who has met the person she seeks and can get her closer to what she wants...

Sorry but again, I'm seriously asking: what did you expect/want out of her future story? What other major motivations could have been pulled from her as a path for her character to explore in a character whose entire life is motivated by revenge? Do you want her to ...idk, suddenly decide she wants to join the JFP?? (I mean, I know she's been shown drinking with Johnny before BUT) Heck, the whole Baiken/Chipp/Venom alliance does basically just that and gives you yet another avenue she might have gone down. Characters' own endings are clearly not the end-all-be-all of their possible paths.

Look, I get what you're saying about tying up the loose ends in Xrd and yeah I think that's definitely going to happen (it needs to, with how much time has passed), but I still think your original statement that AC might as well be stricken from the record etc. is a really huge oversimplification and still smacks of 'because I didn't like this it's ooc', especially with the example given.

[CyberAkuma]

This dude's got it. I uh, wouldn't call BB 'concise' though, lol.

Well, let's put it this way. At least over with BB, story endings boil down to one of two things. They're either a) one of the various other endings that "happened" (thanks to the funky Groundhog Day loops) or b) they're part of the "True End", which basically forms the basis for what the next official release uses as the basis for its SL.

As far as fighting game narratives go, that's one of the more "straight-forward" means of trying to make sure that almost everybody has a decent spot in the overall narrative while also letting them have their own moments of badassery within their own individualized narrative.

Meanwhile, over with GG, the main problem is that we don't really have any "True End" path that dictates exactly what happened and what didn't. And that's what I think could stand to change with GGXrd ideally being the means of them doing such.

I mean, yes, it is what it is when it comes to fighting game storylines. But again, I think it would definitely be in their best interests to at least try to do something similar to what NRS was able to do with MK and Injustice. The stories were still terribad, but it's the way that they were told that likely will stick with people longer than the quality of the narrative itself.

...That really has nothing to do with the overarching storyline, though. Just the lack of the supporting characters. He's not going to suddenly decide to make the Colony trio the main characters because that one game did poorly (which let's be real, had more to do with the gameplay itself than the story even if story/character addition played a part; plus we know the character part was a legal issue anyway and not a conscious decision).

And besides, you have to have a proper frame of reference when you hear Ishiwatari talk about them being gaiden (see: http://gear-project.tumblr.com/post/29128148725/how-gaiden-works).

TL;DR or TL;DC - The characters from the X/XX/AC series are all canonical; it's just that all of the various plot threads may or may not be.

Considering that Ishiwatari hasn't been in the director's chair since #R, he could very well joss almost everything that AC+ did storywise and do something entirely different. Or he may work with what was there and use some of it to fit his overall plan. Who knows?

On a completely different topic...is there at all a remote possibility that ASW might be continuing the nice trend of acknowledging their Western fanbase and maybe have GGXrd make a showing (at least a stage show) at EVO?

As I was talking about on another forum...it'd be nice if the fact that ASW has an official western branch, had their US division twitter warn people to watch ArcFest for "something big" and actually had the Xrd trailer subtitled and in English was a start of a welcome trend where they were actually going to make a concerted effort to try and actually "globalize" their fighting games, in a matter similar to how Capcom has done it. (Which ideally would also mean no more waiting a year and some change while Japan keeps the game all to themselves.)

It may be too little, too late for BB at this point, but maybe GG could be the flagship that launches this type of effort. At least, assuming Minoru Kidooka is actually serious about ASW's plans for "world domination".

[Fenrir Werwolf]

Important to note: We're all aware that Daisuke was basically removed from involvement, apart from probably vague story-planning notes, of writing AC, right..?

This

Just compare the story from #R and the one from AC

In #R we have nice dialogues, narration, and even a lot of comicity, since the fights are often just an excuse.

The story is completely a gaiden, but in a good sense; instead of advancing the main plot, the game focuses on a side part of the story, the one regarding the postwar administration bureau.

AC+ somehow scraps #R stories and have ridiculos storyline, dialogues and such (I just think on how they solve SOl vs OS paradox...meh)

Many characters also looks like they are parody of themselves (like Anji, and such)

In this one Daisuke will be leading again, so..

Also, Overture did not sold that bad. The fact that is not THAT popular doesn't affect sell rate (in Japan, in the west sold almost nothing)

Plus, it is a great game

[Narroo]

I still totally endorse the whole 'GG1 Axl is the true Axl after he got all buffed up through time adventures' theory. GG1 Axl for Xrd plz.

(Also; I actually recently noticed that the Chipp wanting to be President thing has been around since X+. I thought it was weird in AC+ too because I don't recall it popping up in XX unless my memory is just fuzzy, but since it was there as early as X it makes much more sense now.)

Anyway:

Important to note: We're all aware that Daisuke was basically removed from involvement, apart from probably vague story-planning notes, of writing AC, right..? That's pretty important to consider when comparing it to the writing of things he was directly involved in. Basically, they knew 'we have to connect this from XX to Overture' and that's it. Unfortunately, that means the characters prevented from appearing in Overture got a crap end of the writing stick, because they didn't have much to go on as to their futures.

That said, that's a really really broad statement to make that in a cast of 25 characters so much of it was ooc or terrible to the point that it might as well be scrapped.

You mean how her entire story previous to this has been about her buildup of a bloodlusting, revenge-treading path, which multiple characters point out and warn her about in XX?

So then, you don't like that her story went down the revenge-fueled path... And you also don't like that it went down the path of calming down somewhat and instead of the lone bloodfilled path, choosing traveling with her one major character relationship, who has met the person she seeks and can get her closer to what she wants...

Sorry but again, I'm seriously asking: what did you expect/want out of her future story? What other major motivations could have been pulled from her as a path for her character to explore in a character whose entire life is motivated by revenge? Do you want her to ...idk, suddenly decide she wants to join the JFP?? (I mean, I know she's been shown drinking with Johnny before BUT) Heck, the whole Baiken/Chipp/Venom alliance does basically just that and gives you yet another avenue she might have gone down. Characters' own endings are clearly not the end-all-be-all of their possible paths.

Look, I get what you're saying about tying up the loose ends in Xrd and yeah I think that's definitely going to happen (it needs to, with how much time has passed), but I still think your original statement that AC might as well be stricken from the record etc. is a really huge oversimplification and still smacks of 'because I didn't like this it's ooc', especially with the example given.

You're missing SolXBaiken's point. It's not that he/she didn't like the idea or plot of the endings, it's that he/she did not like the actual writing. The bloodlust ending didn't tick SolXBaiken off because he/she doesn't want to see Baiken become a serial killer; he/she hates it because it was just poorly written, in his/her opinion.

[White Man]

Is there any real basis for the storylines in AC+ NOT being canon besides Ishiwatari not penning the scripts and some people not liking the quality of the presentation? Because if it's true that Ishiwatari so much as muttered "yeah whatever" when the scripts were dropped on his desk then it shouldn't matter who actually wrote what. And if people just don't like the way some characters' stories were resolved, well, maybe they can go write some self-insertion fanfiction where Baiken becomes their waifu if it makes them feel better.

[Star-Demon]

You're missing SolXBaiken's point. It's not that he/she didn't like the idea or plot of the endings, it's that he/she did not like the actual writing. The bloodlust ending didn't tick SolXBaiken off because he/she doesn't want to see Baiken become a serial killer; he/she hates it because it was just poorly written, in his/her opinion.

Baiken's Killer ending is a bit contrived, but let's stop and think about this - there's no portrait sprites and it's on a PS2 Disc. Baiken interacting with other characters couldn't possibly have the level of dialogue needed to really SHOW her discarding herself and just killing anyone who looks at her funny.

The ending just has Ky seeing her looking really mad. The actions you take to get this ending are her being annoyed and killing people, so it makes sense but it still poorly executed.

Would it not be awesome if there were "Teach me" segments for bad endings? :D

I vote I-NO or Kliff, I think...

[Narroo]

Baiken's Killer ending is a bit contrived, but let's stop and think about this - there's no portrait sprites and it's on a PS2 Disc. Baiken interacting with other characters couldn't possibly have the level of dialogue needed to really SHOW her discarding herself and just killing anyone who looks at her funny.

The ending just has Ky seeing her looking really mad. The actions you take to get this ending are her being annoyed and killing people, so it makes sense but it still poorly executed.

Would it not be awesome if there were "Teach me" segments for bad endings? :D

I vote I-NO or Kliff, I think...

Exactly; if it happens he/she wants it to happen in a way that feels right instead of it just being: "And so Baiken got really angry and killed him"

You know what? I'd like the Teach me Prof. Kokonoe to actually be done by Kokonoe. We can get a bit of forth wall breaking crossover fun in this.

"Why am I here?! This isn't even my game! Jesus, even the girls here have jugs. Wait, does this mean I'm going to be playable? Bring it on!"

[SolxBaiken]

You're missing SolXBaiken's point. It's not that he/she didn't like the idea or plot of the endings, it's that he/she did not like the actual writing. The bloodlust ending didn't tick SolXBaiken off because he/she doesn't want to see Baiken become a serial killer; he/she hates it because it was just poorly written, in his/her opinion.

Thank you, lol.

Baiken

...

waifu

2 words that should never share the same paragraph...

Also I'm not saying AC+ is not canon, but like with any series [especially those dabbling with multiple endings in each entry] you won't know what sticks until the next installment. I personally think Arc could do themselves a favor for writing Xrd as a proper continuation over XX instead of going off of AC+. And again, I don't think all the ideas are bad in AC+, so if they re-introduce threads from it I wouldn't mind, so long as they do better jobs with the pacing and flow of any such events.

But yeah, this is all moot until Xrd exists in a more tangible state [arcade release] and finally gets home plans into circulation lol

[Star-Demon]

What's wrong with Baiken as a waifu? Some of us like damaged goods! :lordknight:

[Volt]

Slayer's story was also badly developed in my opinion, but I actually like the ending that he decides to stay and make some sort of fighting club with Baiken.

[Kitsoru]

Well, let's put it this way. At least over with BB, story endings boil down to one of two things. They're either a) one of the various other endings that "happened" (thanks to the funky Groundhog Day loops) or b) they're part of the "True End", which basically forms the basis for what the next official release uses as the basis for its SL.

...

Meanwhile, over with GG, the main problem is that we don't really have any "True End" path that dictates exactly what happened and what didn't. And that's what I think could stand to change with GGXrd ideally being the means of them doing such.

Ohhhh ok, I see what you mean now- that we wouldn't know until the next installment which ending would be canon, which of course left us hanging for years in many cases. With AC+ we would have already known which ending is canon for Sol Ky and Dizzy, but not for anyone else and that's where it fell apart a bit. I agree it'd be better- when the installments are this many years apart- to point out which one is true right then and there.

Also I'm not saying AC+ is not canon,

But you suggested it should be:

Why...Would anyone want any of the AC+ story to be canon? D: I'd rather take Judgment being the base over AC+ lol

Just start over off of things from XX,

...Which is the original point here. I'm not sure what else this would be saying, other than a retcon of AC...

And I realized I should note my response at first (hence "this mentality") was continuation of my reaction to the general attitude that has been popping up a lot these past couple weeks of people going off about how things weren't written the way they wanted. Not just you specifically. (Here's) (some) (context) that is admittedly much worse off (because tumblr..) but the point is the same.

there's no portrait sprites and it's on a PS2 Disc. Baiken interacting with other characters couldn't possibly have the level of dialogue needed to really SHOW her discarding herself and just killing anyone who looks at her funny. The ending just has Ky seeing her looking really mad.

Cinematic endings, right? That would be nice to finally get, if anything storymode has been lacking from that. I'm hoping that with Xrd this will be amended (in-engine cinematics!) because I agree the method of storytelling- basically a drama CD set to still portraits- doesn't cut it anymore. Even BB has those shifting images for their endings instead of a single still image.

And on that subject:

Think it's possible we might get in-engine fully animated story sequences, or would that type of thing take too long/be too work intensive to be likely?

[CyberAkuma]

And on that subject:

Think it's possible we might get in-engine fully animated story sequences, or would that type of thing take too long/be too work intensive to be likely?

I'd like to think so. After all, again, we're in a post-MK2011 world. There's certain things that the casuals are going to look for in their fighting games, now; one of them is definitely going to a well-done storymode, not another visual novel. If NRS was able to do some adequate storytelling using in-game assets on the Unreal Engine, I'd like to think Ishiwatari and his crew can do similar.

And frankly, I'd rather have a 3-5 hour "cinematic storymode" to play through once, then upwards of 20-30+ individual stories that would likely become redundant after doing about 5 of them. Arcade mode endings with nice art, however, should still remain.

But in any case, Ishiwatari is going to get few chances like this where he can really go hog-wild with telling the story he's been trying to build up over the last few years. He'd be silly not to take it...

[SoWL]

Do casuals really consider a 3-5 hours long animated story mode to be "well-done"? I dunno, most of the casuals I know appreciate good amount of gameplay outside of Versus, so they'd rather have a long, well-written story mode rather than a short and animated one.

[Delrian]

If we get in-engine story sequences, I'd expect them to be similar to special intros like some of the fights in story mode.

[Volt]

They could make the more important parts fully animated and the rest less detailed.

[CyberAkuma]

Do casuals really consider a 3-5 hours long animated story mode to be "well-done"? I dunno, most of the casuals I know appreciate good amount of gameplay outside of Versus, so they'd rather have a long, well-written story mode rather than a short and animated one.

You'd only have to look back at MK2011's successes. The story there wasn't anything special, and was something that you could clear in a day (or two, if some of the "Endurance" fights in MK gave you trouble). But it was how it was told that made all the difference, and the production values was what helped the game get so acclaimed by the press, and the casual base that the media caters directly towards. And of course, the game was full of mini-games and other extra content, as well (a lot of which was made a bit easier if you went through story mode, as an extra incentive). No to mention having every character from UMK3 (plus 2 "new" characters), each of which had some part in the narrative, even if they weren't all playable in it.

So, don't get me wrong. Story mode is not the only thing that ASW should be focused on, as I would ideally love to see the initial console release as jam-packed with as much content as possible. But it definitely does help!

And hey, if Ishiwatari really wants to have some type of Strategy mode extra in his game, maybe he could find some way to adapt the likes of BB's "Legion Mode" into something a bit more poignant, a la "Chronicles of the Sword" mode from Soulcalibur III. Earn-able costumes/costume parts would be enough of an incentive, right...?

[SolxBaiken]

If there were FMVs like what we saw at the end of the reveal trailer I think there are 2 rather safe assumptions that can be made:

- Frequency will probably [at least] be on the level of animated sequences in BB's story modes

- The Unreal Engine could've been requisitioned for this exact reason, to reduce the cost of making these sequences [as everything could be produced easier "in house"] and allow for greater creative control.

Truth is though, we probably won't be seeing much of that until a consumer ver, at most we could see FMVs for arcade endings [which would be awesome]

But you suggested it should be:

...

...Which is the original point here. I'm not sure what else this would be saying, other than a retcon of AC...

And I realized I should note my response at first (hence "this mentality") was continuation of my reaction to the general attitude that has been popping up a lot these past couple weeks of people going off about how things weren't written the way they wanted. Not just you specifically. (Here's) (some) (context) that is admittedly much worse off (because tumblr..) but the point is the same.

Alright then, let me put this as simple as possible then:

[i think] AC+['s story mode] was trash, I'm fine with them referencing/remaking threads from it so long as they do a better job with exposition, because it was horrendous in AC+.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Why was it horrendous? It makes sense to me and it concludes a lot of things.

Also, it's shorter to complete

[Vulcan422]

Looking back, AC+ did have some dumb plots and out-of-character moments. That creepy PWAB fucker is also a dumb character with no real relevance aside from the fact that he's a Japanese guy who betrayed both his nation and Johnny's Iaido teacher.

I would not be surprised if Daisuke just flat out said "AC+ is not canon".

EDIT: Apparently someone misinterpreted Crow as BEING Johnny's teacher. Reworded.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Vulcan422