[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Kyosuke Kagami]

>suggestions based on BB mechanics

no thank you.

And IIRC the throw prevention thing you mention is already implemented in GG (before AC). If both attempt to throw, they'll just get their HS (and the fastest HS will win, of course)

[Phrekwenci]

Zappa air summon / overdrive. :D

[Xtra_Zero]

Kind of reminds me of CT's guard libra. Except if it gave you negative warning instead of guard break.

Lol yeah kinda. The key to GG's guard bar is that it's actually a damage scaling/tech time bar. It is literally a visual representation of how much scaling the next move's damage will have and how much untechable time the opponent has. The bar doesn't actually affect your guard at all. The bar normally stays at neutral (50%) and as it goes down (as the player gets hit) the player takes less damage. If the bar is below 50% when the player recovers, the bar is immediately reset to 50%. Above 50%, damage isn't increased, but it takes longer for the bar to drop below 50%, and thus longer for damage scaling to kick in, and thus a more damaging combo IF you get hit. Above 75% or so, all hits that land are treated as counter hits, so not only do you get that unscaled damage, but you have the potential for some really wacky 2+ CH combos that utilize the extra properties of counter hits. The bar slowly moves back toward 50% if it's above 50%.

[shinr]

A Musical wishlist:

- New modern arrangements of:

-- In Slave's Glory

-- Black Soul

-- Death and Republic

-- Beyond the Dark Life

-- Grief

- Bring back the the more subdued intro parts of Make Oneself, A Solitude That Asks Nothing In Return, Bloodstained Lineage and Awe of She.

- In general, more relative simplicity of X/late-XX and less relative overproduction of early XX.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Put fucking numbers on the Tension gauge, please, ArcSys.

I'd rather they did away with the weirdass Guts/homogenized life totals as well. The only reason I see for is that GG was old enough that perhaps 4/5 digit numbers weren't allowed when it was first created. Sort of like how all the old games have caps of 99 on them. The Guts stuff only seems to be there to give the game some more tension towards the end of the round because people barely don't die from stuff, but that's exactly how it works in BB too without all that crap (the life gauge is simply "denser" towards the end in BB). Give everyone unique life totals. And if you insist on a Guts-like system maybe instead when they get low on HP their guard gauge starts getting lower? That would make the guard gauge even more relevant.

I know GG players are all defensive about all the systems in this game, but this is seriously something that's just an incredibly over-convoluted way of achieving something simple. There's no actual gameplay related to it, it's all in the background. I'm sure if you wanted to do the math you could find everyone's "calculated" life total.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Vashimus]

Yeah, I'd much prefer it if the tension meter was sectioned like the super meter in SF4. Or have both numbers and sectioned meter like P4A does.

[RifleAvenger]

Yeah, I'd much prefer it if the tension meter was sectioned like the super meter in SF4. Or have both numbers and sectioned meter like P4A does.

But it is sectioned already: It changes color at all the points that actually matter (25%, 50%, 75%, 100%).

[Vashimus]

Sectioned meter is more straight forward to me. One block is 25%, two blocks is 50%, etc. P4A has like the perfect meter imo.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Vashimus

[j1n[kr]]

what I mean by block break I guess I meant to say "more options to open someone up" rather than punishing the player who is blocking well.

not actual guard break mechanic.

[Effenhoog]

;1513717']

Slayer: give Slayer a gun.

Slayer's Wife: Would be cool.

game of the year all years

[Kitsoru]

In general, more relative simplicity of X/late-XX and less relative overproduction of early XX.

If we're gonna talk overproduction (or better yet, over-composition), where it really got bad is anything around 2007-onwards. But I definitely agree with the sentiment.

[Delrian]

Yeah how dare throws actually be effective and force the players to manage their spacing properly let's just give an easy out.

When you can't tech throws when you know they're coming, the window could use a little tweaking.

[Abominable K]

Don't get in a situation to get grabbed in the first place. The whole reason throw techs are only zero frames is because they didn't want to water the throw game down too severely.

[4r5]

Ah, we are back to throws and throwbreaks. What loop is this now, third?

[SolxBaiken]

Ah, we are back to throws and throwbreaks. What loop is this now, third?

No, Xrd

[Amadeus46Art]

HAW.

[TheRealBobMan]

I looked through the last 2-3 pages, so here's some of my thoughts on some of the stuff that came up:

On Auto Jump Install:

I think this would be great as it would simplify inputs, but don't forget that some things will need to be changed up a little bit to account for it. For example, I-No can't 2S > HCL > 6FRC6 > combo unless she carries a jump install from somewhere before going into the 2S. So either I-No has to do it out of 5K/5S in a block string (both are jump cancelable so you either TK dive overhead or JI into the low 2S for a mixup), or she has to carry it from an earlier combo or blockstring (requires not returning to neutral), or do 2S out of landing from a dash or jump that didn't use her air options. This restricts her options for comboing off of 2S. If she had auto jump install on HCL, she would have way more setups for unprorated damage off of a 9-frame 1/2 screen low, which would need to be accounted for. I like that she gets to do max damage off of a low when she has meter and the setup, so as long as they balance it without simply nerfing the damage or the range/speed of the move too much, I'd be pretty happy. If they flat out just gave her auto jump install without accounting for that, it'd really make I-No scary since any time she has 25% tension, you're at risk of losing 50% off of a low (as opposed to 30% when she combos off of 2K with the 75% prorate). It's especially scary when you consider tick throws. 2P > throw to scare them into not holding downback, then 2P > 2S > HCL combo to hit them trying to jump out, since they'll be holding up to avoid the throw, which means not blocking low. If they go for a throw-invul move instead (for example a DP), the 2P > 2S is frame tight, so unless they IB the 2P they will sit in block stun, or get hit by the 2S depending on the input they used.

I'm sure there are similar things that would come up with other characters. I know ArcSys could account for this and adjust moves, but it'd be a little more complex to get rid of jump installing than people seem to think. I would still prefer that auto jump install gets built into moves since the ideal thing in the majority of cases is to just JI, because having the option is better than not having the option, so why make people do the extra input?

On Forcebreaks:

Sure, the game could be rebalanced to not use them, but it's not like all of these are just "slightly better" versions of specials like in most other fighting games. Instead of getting slightly more damage, you get effects like invulnerability + wallstick on hit, or complete super armor (**** FB DANZAI), or auto clean-hit (more setups for SW loop), or a projectile that hits overhead and sets up unblockables, or a multi-hit low that sets up unblockables. I wonder why people seem to think they don't matter, or seem to not like them. I think they're a worthy reason to have moves that cost meter, but don't prorate meter gain like FRCs/RCs.

On Minimum Damage for Supers

Guilty Gear already has this. It's called hitting a ****ton of times so that even if each hit does 1-2 damage, you take away 10%+ of their hp. Chipp's Bankai Messai and Justice's laser thingie do this, as well as Jam's joke 100-hit Hokuto no Ken super that has been buffed so that she can now combo into it. Not everyone needs to have a minimum damage thing anyway. I like that GG isn't the same as most other fighters with the "do a big combo then end in super" design.

On Dusts

Because all 5Ds are overheads and all 2Ds are lows (except Robo Ky's), everyone has basic mixup. I don't think this should ever change (unless they make sure everyone has basic high/low through some other means, though having it on one button really simplifies using mixup for new players). Some Dusts have special properties that give them a purpose outside of simply trying to hit with an overhead, like Millia's going under moves, Eddie's going over moves, Fausts going through moves, Chipp's having lots of range and being + on block (combo into it off of spaced CH 5H for an impossible dust combo), and May being able to feint the overhead into a low. Some are really designed for the simple use of hitting overhead (Kliff's telegraphing so late is a good example), but overall they have solid purpose, even if they don't get used as frequently as other options. They're -20GB on hit, so unless you pressured them a bit, they do a little less damage compared to other starters. However, because they're not prorated like most 2Ks, you still get really good damage after about 2-3 blocked attacks, which is acceptable for opening up a combo via an overhead. More risk because of the startup time, but more damage. In general dust combos lead to more damage than combos off of prorated lows anyway. The only thing that I don't like is that many of them look like they would hit low, which is counter intuitive.

[Oiboi]

The problem with designing for new players is that it can sometimes lessen the depth of high level play. But that's not really why the Dust button behaves the way that it does. The Dust is an equalizer for all characters; It's similar to, say, giving identical uppercuts to every character. It's simply a standardized tool, and as such, I think it shouldn't be changed. Especially because I actually like the Dust mechanic, as long as they keep impossible dusts a thing. Gives the game a bit of hype flair to it.

EDIT: Though I would like to see dust combos become more powerful and reliable than just mash buttons or impossible dust. That proration is nasty.

[Volt]

Ah, we are back to throws and throwbreaks. What loop is this now, third?

I hope someone breaks the loop before we get to FRC's again.

[Sym_]

Guilty Gear...I PLAY DAT

(but i'm not a gg player)

Scrubby ass noobs....I BODY DAT

(put 'em in a body bag)

Trash GGXRD wishlists...I AIN'T TRYNA HEAR DAT!

[Rhannmah]

The only gameplay things i think could/should be adjusted to help newcomers is to possibly increase frc windows a little via a buffer(as requested by Volt), auto-jump install for specials that go airborne and standardized character weights to reduce character specific combos. One of the complaints i hear the most from new players is how every combo has to be adjusted for every character. And they're right, it's quite annoying and an unnecessary difficulty hurdle that brings nothing to gameplay.

Other than that, i would have a hard time swallowing any other gameplay compromise, as i feel anything else would bring down the complexity of the game.

[RifleAvenger]

I hope someone breaks the loop before we get to FRC's again.

DL:CT

Dust Loop: Complaint Trigger

[shinr]

If there is going to be alternate costume DLC, I expect only one, maximum two per character and more expensive compared to DOA and Tekken DLC prices. Because as far as we know, the 3D emulating 2D by handcrafting every single "frame" approach prevents Arc from just giving a 3D model a new outfit, test it a little for bugs and let the usual animations play out.

For hypothetical example Sol has a Classic Sol alt, Shirtless alt, Order Sol alt, Xrd Ky-style Regal Order Sol alt, Frederick alt, the Full Gear alt, GG2 Overture alt, Coatless GG2 Overture alt and GG2 Overture Full Gear alt. The new revision comes, Sol gets a new move, and now Arc has to handcraft 9 extra sets of "frames" for alts, the time and money for which could have been spent better elsewhere.

[Digital Watches]

I don't see why any approach with models would stop them from reskinning/retexturing or putting new soft-body simulations or whatever for clothing on top of the base models. Ultimately they're still going to end up with a model and an animation that's a series of transformations acting on the model, regardless of how they got there.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Oiboi]

XRD is definitely just 3d models in a 2D fighting setting, just like SF4 or whatever. Being a 3D artist I can tell just by looking at it; the thing your thinking is a 2D 'handcrafting' is really just a really well done toon shader. So it's literally as simple as animating the character once and applying the model over top.