[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Circuitous]

XRD is definitely just 3d models in a 2D fighting setting, just like SF4 or whatever. Being a 3D artist I can tell just by looking at it; the thing your thinking is a 2D 'handcrafting' is really just a really well done toon shader. So it's literally as simple as animating the character once and applying the model over top.

He's referring to the way the animations are displayed: they're presented like sprites, with deformations/exaggerations and everything, rather than normal tweened animations. So essentially the models are being posed to resemble the sprites. Rigged properly this shouldn't dramatically affect creating new outfits, though, and with a limited number of frames to tweak, the little inconsistencies could be solved pretty easily.

[Oiboi]

He's referring to the way the animations are displayed: they're presented like sprites, with deformations/exaggerations and everything, rather than normal tweened animations. So essentially the models are being posed to resemble the sprites. Rigged properly this shouldn't dramatically affect creating new outfits, though, and with a limited number of frames to tweak, the little inconsistencies could be solved pretty easily.

Ah, I get what you're saying now. It is very likely that they will use bones to do deformation, though, as SF4 did that and rigging it initially is always annoying but once it's completed properly it's done for good. That said, it really isn't too difficult to make blend shapes either, and plenty of games still use that for facial animation, among other things.

[Circuitous]

Yeah, I don't think costumes would really be an issue even with this format.

[Agni]

If they do costumes (and they WILL, because it's cheap and easy money), I wouldn't be surprised to see characters getting some BB references in their costumes (i.e Ragna and Jin costumes for Sol and Ky, respectively, and so on...)

Would be pretty cool.

Welp, back to arguing about shit for the 800th time.

[Destin]

I know GG players are all defensive about all the systems in this game, but this is seriously something that's just an incredibly over-convoluted way of achieving something simple. There's no actual gameplay related to it, it's all in the background. I'm sure if you wanted to do the math you could find everyone's "calculated" life total.

Actually this is not true. Because of the way guts works, it favors big single high damage hits towards the end of the match to not enact more of the guard gauge reduction. For example, a pote buster can take out chipp VERY quickly towards the end of the match because his guts will never kick in, whereas a high hit combo will do considerably less. I have actually optimized certain combos for high guts characters to get around this issue.

Although this is minor, it does affect gameplay.

[Rhannmah]

It also makes for a non-linear decrease of health and increases the amount of time spent at low hp, which is more hype in my opinion.

[Hecatom]

Seriously, do the people who come here with their "amazing" ideas on how to change GG know how GG works, or they just think that because they think that are "bad" they need to be out without even trying to think a little about why they are there on the 1st place?

SMH.

[Akujikan]

On the subject of health and damage, do we think that Xrd will have a damage counter similar to BB and P4A? There are plenty of fighters out there that don't use them, and we obviously always have training mode for number crunching, but do we think that BB and P4A both having them is a sign of a trend for ASW?

[shtkn]

i'd want them to add the hitstun/untech timer like in p4arena too. sadly bbcp didn't have it, so who knows if xrd will too.

acr did add a few hud niceities: it shows which hit was invalid in combos, there's a timer under the stagger bar, and your portrait flashes red when approaching dizzy state.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Only thing that I would like to see in Xrd from other ASW games:

Holding button to tech (AKA no more mashing). My stick's buttons will be grateful

[Destin]

Only thing that I would like to see in Xrd from other ASW games:

Holding button to tech (AKA no more mashing). My stick's buttons will be grateful

Learn where the holes are. I usually tech with a max of 3 button taps. I don't want a random move to come out and get me counter hit.

[Xtra_Zero]

Learn where the holes are. I usually tech with a max of 3 button taps. I don't want a random move to come out and get me counter hit.

While I agree it's not particularly hard to tech (It's pretty obvious after even a small amount of play when you should try and you should usually be getting it with a single plink), I can't think of any negative effects that hold-to-tech brings, despite it feeling wrong.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Learn where the holes are. I usually tech with a max of 3 button taps. I don't want a random move to come out and get me counter hit.

Yeah, me too. However, holding button wouldn't hurt.

Didn't they implement that in ACR?

[Essay]

Hmmm. It's probably from playing I-No, but I actually like that black beat combos are common enough. For example, I'm always making a risk-reward calculation every time I go for this 1 (?) frame 5P j.P extension already, and if you just had to hold a button, I'd be surprised if I ever attempted it. But once I know that my opponent knows that the combo black beat at that point last time, I can start to get tricky with my tech chase game. If they could just always tech on the first frame, it would be too risky to go for the extension in most cases, and I'd feel pressured to always tech chase because it's was easier for them to tech.

Plus, there's something satisfying about pianoing to tech and immediately acting, vs holding a button (or, god forbid, auto teching like in marvel) and forcing the defender to react. I'd say it's more active and less jarring, which, for me at least, allows GG to hold my attention for longer than other games.

[Silmerion]

If you know your opponent's holding the button to tech, go for a tech grab setup. Then you get in their head and they have to decide next time whether to even try.

It's the same mindgame that happens at higher levels of play already, it'd just be easier to do.

[RifleAvenger]

If you know your opponent's holding the button to tech, go for a tech grab setup. Then you get in their head and they have to decide next time whether to even try.

It's the same mindgame that happens at higher levels of play already, it'd just be easier to do.

This. Liz and Kanji shenanigans in P4 are so fun to pull on people holding to tech. It's the kind of thing I wouldn't even try with my friends in GG right now, since they rarely tech immediately, even when it would be optimal (like when I fool up and drop a combo) given our low level.

I also find that games with hold to tech teach me to sharpen my execution better than games without it, since I can't count on my opponent failing to tech.

Edited June 27, 2013 by RifleAvenger

[Digital Watches]

Honestly the way the meta in GG works out, I would pretty much never use hold to tech even if it existed. Way too easy to set up on a first frame tech attempt, and anyone worth their salt knows the techable point (if there is one) in their combo at least as well as you do. It doesn't make black beat combos worse, it makes scrubs more predictable for reset practice. It's much better to take a black-beat combo with the scaling from whatever came before it than to tech predictably, eat a reset into another combo that starts at normal scaling again. The only thing hold-to-tech gives you is access to perfect timing if teching immediately would be a good idea, making it an actual decision everyone needs to make, rather than only a decision once you're at a high enough level to know where the holes are and time your tech properly. I can't see why it would be an undesirable mechanic from a usability standpoint or a gameplay one.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Essay]

The main thing for me is still the issue of feeling like we're participating as much while on the defensive, which none of the other combo-centric fighting games I've played really allowed for in the way that GG does. I can't really say I like how Persona lets it boil down more to another layer of mix up, like how you said. It's too simple, and stops feeling like two players locked in an active struggle.

In this sense, GG appeals to me in much in the same way that Vampire Saviour does: I'm less encouraged to sit back and watch the opponent go. It becomes more than just a correct guess to turn things around – it becomes a physical interaction.

Part of what I've seen sell people on Guilty Gear over Persona is the "adrenaline-factor". Never have I heard someone argue that they want this game to be less adrenaline-filled – not even aspiring players. Would taking away the agency of teching hurt the adrenaline aspect? Isn't that what happened with Persona?

[Chrome Homura]

I was going to write a long ass post, then I settled on a tl:dr version.

simply put, I think "resets" in GG are overrated, and I wholeheartedly support the hold=tech option.

[Amadeus46Art]

The only problem I see with hold to tech in GG mechanically is that teching back/forward results in teching earlier in GG than teching neutral. In that sense, you could still have black beat combos if they're holding to tech but not teching left or right. I dunno, less a problem and more of something to think about.

I agree with Watches though, I'd much rather do manual teching than the "semi-automatic" Persona has. If for no other reason than I've fought his Axl (protip: don't mash tech on Axl).

[Narroo]

The only problem I see with hold to tech in GG mechanically is that teching back/forward results in teching earlier in GG than teching neutral. In that sense, you could still have black beat combos if they're holding to tech but not teching left or right. I dunno, less a problem and more of something to think about.

I agree with Watches though, I'd much rather do manual teching than the "semi-automatic" Persona has. If for no other reason than I've fought his Axl (protip: don't mash tech on Axl).

But, isn't holding to tech the same as mashing, but more reliable?

[Amadeus46Art]

I was referring more towards "teching as early as possible is a BAD IDEA in many situations", but if you meant the first part of my post, then teching right/left makes you tech 1f sooner than teching neutral in GG. If there was teching by holding in GG, I'd imaging holding a button but no direction would make you tech ASAP but with a neutral tech, making black beats still possible.

[Rhiya]

Hold to tech isn't about teching on the earliest frame your character can tech; it's about teching on the earliest frame you want to tech. The idea is just that it eliminates missing frames where you wanted to tech but weren't pianoing fast enough. You could still attempt to tech something late with hold-to-tech, so there's no loss of complexity. Hold-to-tech also makes it easier to not accidentally overmash and get out an attack. It's a beginner problem, sure, but the point of hold-to-tech is making the game more beginner-friendly.

My main point is just that hold-to-tech doesn't reduce mindgames; it just makes them easier to play. This is desirable, so I really would like to see hold-to-tech.

[Delrian]

And we're saying that since airteching as early as possible is (usually) bad, it's effectively making a bad habit easier to get into.

[Rhiya]

And we're saying that since airteching as early as possible is (usually) bad, it's effectively making a bad habit easier to get into.

And? Most new people mash buttons when they're being combo'd on their own, and try to tech as early as possible anyways. You're effectively saying that making it harder for someone to do what they want is better for them, since it's bad, when they would learn it on their own either way. In fact, they'd probably get the message sooner with hold to tech, since they'd know they were teching out on the first frame, whereas they might think they did it too early or too late if they were just mashing.