[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[jak d ripr]

Could you please stop using the word "Cheap"!

He might be too strong but that's the reward for people who spent months and years learning him.

He is not a character that you can pick and learn in a couple of weeks like Ky.

Saying cheap is like anyone can pick him and win easily.

Also he is not as strong as AC Eddie IMO which had bad matchups with lower tier characters like I-No and even match up with many others.

I'm speaking in general(since I don't know shit about GG) but I don't think it matters how much practice a character takes, if they're substantially better than the rest of the cast they deserve to be called cheap imo. I mean marvel 2 sentinel was one of the more difficult characters to play effectively, but no one in their right mind will tell you that hommie wasn't cheap, he made half the cast irrelevant. I do think people are too quick to throw out the cheap label on a character but that's another discussion.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Cheap implies something that is relatively easy to do in relation to how effective it is. That would make Sentinel a bad example of this, because even if he makes half the cast irrelevant, you still had to put in work to get your Sent to that level.

That being said, partly in response to Destin, a lot of players don't distinguish between difficulty in execution and difficulty in decision making/actual play. This is one of the reason I have always disliked the puppet characters like Zato/Eddie and Carl/Relius, because it sometimes feels like you are exchanging actual experience and play time for training mode time. I personally have always preferred easier characters simply because I can get to the part of the game that actually matters much quicker. But then there are players who feel like more training mode time should justify a character being able to turn a match into something where they get to completely dictate the terms of engagement. I have no problem with different character types and their different strengths, but when you completely shut out the other player's ability to do anything, there is a problem. Thankfully, this is a pretty rare occurrence, but it's something that will always be a struggle because the entire goal of playing to win is to make the game as un-fun and frustrating for your opponent as possible, by whatever in-game methods available to you.

[Henaki]

I'm terrible at everything so I play Potemkin.

[BladeOfJustice7]

These are some wonderful well thought out posts. I've always used the word "cheap" with an exclusive ability to one or few characters in the games cast that is very difficult to deal with, for me I used the term irrespective of the execution difficulty or accessibility of the "cheap" move. If I've offended someone I apologize.

Carry on in these intelligent discussions :3

EDIT: @Titanium, I've read puppet users literally just spend time in training mode and then just do those things they practice in matches and end up winning. Going by your post, it sounds like this is at least partially true.

[TheRealBobMan]

Eh... it's not quite that simple. Offense is a lot easier to learn than defense because defense is matchup specific. With a puppet character at lower to mid level play, you put in the work to get your offense down and start flooring people. Players absolutely need to know how to defend against that or they're going to lose. At higher levels you're assuming both players know how to attack and defend appropriately for that matchup and are operating in yomi layers, so the puppet player has to adapt their offense.

Yeah, puppet characters can go far just learning how to use their offense to the fullest. It's hard to compete with unblockable set-ups and very strong mixup. Once the other player knows the matchup well enough to block regular mixup and avoid situations that lead to unblockables, the puppet player has to try to play around that. It's the same as any other matchup... it's just that the difficulty curve is shaped differently.

It's already harder to learn defense than offense, not just because you have to learn how to defend against 20+ sets of tools, but because it's hard to learn it by yourself with the tools available to a solo player. We can sit around learning to block overheads in arcade mode, but you really need to use record enemy to learn to block more advanced stuff, which means learning the offense of every character in order to better learn to defend against them. Even just looking at one matchup means learning offense from their side to then teach yourself defense against it. The worst part about the puppet characters is that learning to block that kind of mixup usually means there's more mechanical skill involved.

You actually can block those Eddie "unblockables", but you have to switch between high/low with like 1-frame timing, and you have to know which way to block first in some situations. I think I read that on oki, if Eddie meaties a puddle at the same time as his j.K, you have to block the puddle first, but can actually block first if you time the 1>4 input perfectly? Not sure on that one, so someone weigh in with how it really works please. Outside of those situations, you need to react with what you think would hit first based on what you're seeing, but it's hard when you factor that some moves occur faster than you can see them, and even harder to when you consider parts of the characters being obstructed which makes it difficult to discern what move is even being used.

So, in the instance that you do learn where there are gaps to DP out or backdash or whatever happens to be a move that works for that situation, you need nearly frame perfect timing to do it. It's like dealing with AC Pot doing SlideHead after 6H if you're stuck blocking the 6H. IB > backdash works fine for everyone, but even if you know how to do it you're probably going to **** it up most of the time until you really hammer that down, and even then you'll still mess up if they use it at the appropriate times. Puppet characters have traps like that all over the place. When you learn what actually works to defend yourself when they have the initiative, you still have to train the dexterity required to do it.

For example, I still have an easier time with slashbacks than instant block because it's easier for me to time the S+H button press than it is for me to do 4>5>4 on stick (I either don't manage to engage block when I mean to and get hit, or I wind up backdashing when I don't mean to which gets me punished). I've also heard that 4>1>4 works, but it doesn't seem to work when I try it. *Shrug*

[qwerty]

I had the epiphany not too long ago that American style tournaments basically cheapen the value of victory (Well, it was more like something I've always known, but didn't fully grasp the magnitude of until I got to experience other formats).

I understand that there are reasons for the format, but you can't deny that it makes winning a match count for much less than it should.

That being said, I think Guilty Gear works perfectly in double elim 3v3 tournaments.

[BladeOfJustice7]

That being said, I think Guilty Gear works perfectly in double elim 3v3 tournaments.

Why do you say that?

[zissou]

Hey- I'm new to dustloop, but was wondering where it would be appropriate to discuss Nemo's tweets regarding Faust tech he's finding. I'm new to GG and trying to get into it now that Xrd is out. My Japanese is ok, but I'm having some difficulty understanding some of Nemo's tweets due to my lack of familiarity with the series and I thought if people with more Guilty Gear expertise were to lend a hand, we could translate his stuff to have a log of Xrd Faust info built up by the time the console port comes out.

Where would it be best to do that? (if there's even any interest at all, haha) This thread? An existing thread in Faust's Xrd character discussion board? A new thread somewhere?

[Kitsoru]

Hey- I'm new to dustloop, but was wondering where it would be appropriate to discuss Nemo's tweets regarding Faust tech he's finding. I'm new to GG and trying to get into it now that Xrd is out. My Japanese is ok, but I'm having some difficulty understanding some of Nemo's tweets due to my lack of familiarity with the series and I thought if people with more Guilty Gear expertise were to lend a hand, we could translate his stuff to have a log of Xrd Faust info built up by the time the console port comes out.

Where would it be best to do that? (if there's even any interest at all, haha) This thread? An existing thread in Faust's Xrd character discussion board? A new thread somewhere?

Heck of a time for your first post with the update, lol, but if you're still around-- you can head on over to the Xrd Faust forums, right here: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/forum/289-faust/

Not sure who the mod is of that right now but I'm sure you can start a General Discussion or translation thread or something? Seems to only be command list discussion right now.

[Destin]

@henaki

It's even more complex than what you posted about it, but the GENERAL idea is roughly true. I always wonder if 6-4 related to a single round, or a 2/3. I'm guessing a single round. And you have to admit AC pote was his easiest version! I don't think any other pote was "easy" though. (In the gg sense of the word at least)

[Kyosuke Kagami]

>2 weeks to master Ky

Yeah, but considering how his shit his damage has been (at least in the X / XX era), achieving something with him takes a lot more effort with chars who have better damaging options.

 

Or well... iono, IMO his damage got improved in XRD. None of the stuff I've seen deals such horrendous damage like in AC or ACR.

[Skyheartxia]

 The only character in GGXX's history that I could have ever considered to be pick up and play was AC pote...

you must have the reads of a complete god to pick him up and just play. 

Potemkin gives me feelings of old woman brain just trying to not block forever

[jak d ripr]

you must have the reads of a complete god to pick him up and just play. 

Potemkin gives me feelings of old woman brain just trying to not block forever

 

So is this the life of potemkin players? I've been watching some gameplay in xrd and he tends to spend a lot of the match blocking, I was hoping this might have been because people were just getting used to him but reading your post makes me feel otherwise. So is that how it always is with pot?

[king of heart]

Decreasing damage is the same as increasing the number of matches. It exacerbates the apparent difference in tiers, its harder to take a 3/5 match in an 2-8 matchup than a 2/3 ect.

Eddie is way way way easier I think than you are making him out to be king of heart. And ky is more difficult to play at high high level than people seem to think. I find eddie to be the easier of the two by a margin, he just takes more training mode time. The only character in GGXX's history that I could have ever considered to be pick up and play was AC pote...

Still the word "cheap" is totally inappropriate.

Even if you mastered every unblockable it's very hard to move around alongside the shadow and you can only master that by playing actual matches not by training mode.

also If you want both character to be equal in high level play then why would anyone bother picking a hard to use character and spend more time practicing ?

wouldn't it better for him to pick the easy character and save his precious time as long as he still getting the same result ?

I don't play Eddie but i do play Ky and i know that Eddie is more rewarding but it's a matter of give and take.

[4thChamber]

Why are you all talking about Xrd Zato like he is AC Eddie. The only unblockable setups I have seen in Xrd are off of hard knockdowns in the corner; and every character can use a blitzsheild to guess out of it. In this game, Zato can't just force you to  block and then setup an unblockable, he has to mix you up like every other character. His average damage outside of the corner is also pretty tame. Only time will tell if he ends up broken, but right now, he seems to be a pretty fair.

[Skyheartxia]

So is this the life of potemkin players? I've been watching some gameplay in xrd and he tends to spend a lot of the match blocking, I was hoping this might have been because people were just getting used to him but reading your post makes me feel otherwise. So is that how it always is with pot?

Pot definitely lives around making big reads. especially so in Xrd with the bout of terrible matchups. he does have the chances to take the offensive with just as much benefit, but generally he's quite a punishing and a defensive character, from what i know.

[Destin]

Wait, I thought slash ky was pick up and play. Maybe Moreso than AC pot.

 

I guess it's hard for me to say "pick up and play", because I have been playing Guilty gear for 10 years now and have a cursory experience with every char.  But I have never picked up someone like AC pote and been able to do so good in the history of GG.  I mean, being able to block is necessary with almost any char (and I agree it's more necessary with pote than almost anyone else). 

 

Note: I have nothing but respect for dedicated pote players.  Maybe the mostso of all of the GG players.  Those guys tend to be the most technical and devoted players, and really love it.  That being said, the pick up and play pote players have gotten more eye rolls from me than counterpick slayer players back in #R.  And when I watch the vids, I often would find myself saying "man they realllly didn't deserve that win." 

[Kaizen]

Anybody going to translate 1.02 patch notes? There's a few things on Bursts, Danger Time, Dead Angles, a handful of character specific notes, and some updates to M.O.M. and sparring mode.

http://ggxrd.com/wanted/

[king of heart]

Yeah BTW i heard that the Burst is air throwable (again if it wasn't)  in ver 1.01 is it true ?

[Kurushii]

It was added into the 1.02 patch with Ram-chan that's currently being loketested

[Ronove]

I've translated the notes, at least the gameplay-related portion of it, let me know if there's anything that needs to be corrected:

 

Patch 1.02 changes

 

New Character & Stage

- new character added, Ramlethal Valentine.

- Valentine will be available at character select on all modes (Arcade, Versus, Training, M.O.M.)

- New Stage added, "Japan"

 

Additional System Functions

- Stage Selection available for Versus mode

- Last Mode Used memorized on the player's card

 

Game Related Tweaks and Corrections

- Blue Burst's invincibility properties on hit changed

- Bursts can be grabbed

- Dead Angle directional input added (down-forward)

- Corrected a problem regarding "Maximum Number of Combo Hits" "Max Combo Damage" "Max Damage Dealt" on a player's profile page at the Guild website

- During Danger Time, fixed a problem where both Non-RCable moves on hit and following hits of a combo would enter into Mortal Counter status

- Fixed a problem where the screen would shake a little when trying to unsuccesfully Burst o press D simultaneously during a throw

 

General Character Changes

- Fixed an animation bug when the finishing blow would hit the opponent

- The finishing blow now has a special effect

 

Specific Character Changes

- Fixed some of the moves of various characters that had armor property and would absorb more hits than usual

 

May

- Iruka-san Yoko and Iruka-san Tate's input priority changed

 

Chipp Zanuff

- Fixed Zansei Rouga so that the last part of the move only hits the opponent

- Fixed Banki Messai so that it easily hits continuously until the end of the move

 

Axl Low

- Rashousen has been adjusted so that it easily hits even from behind and at the end of the move too.

 

I-No

- Fixed an attack detection problem with Koutsu Onkai when the note hits/explodes on the opponent

 

Bedman

- Increased the amount of tension gauge gained during special moves

- Adjusted the amount of tension gauge gained while crawling

[Ronove]

double post

[Skyheartxia]

Anybody going to translate 1.02 patch notes? There's a few things on Bursts, Danger Time, Dead Angles, a handful of character specific notes, and some updates to M.O.M. and sparring mode.

http://ggxrd.com/wanted/

 

Okay so the only actual things i can provide about 1.02 patch notes is that:

<edited because Ronove gave a real translation of it instead of tidbits>

MoM mode: you can now buy items for the mode with MoM points

 

these are all things i saw on twitter in regards to it.

 

however, there are some non-fixed issues mentioned by Ruu: ( https://twitter.com/ruubri/status/445596713642758144 )

Venom's Bishop Runout does not give him tension.

Axl's Byakue Renshou super has an unspecified problem where it will sometimes drop the last hit

and there's one there about I-No's Vertical Chemical Love during hoverdash.

[Skyheartxia]

double post

welp, now i feel silly you beat me to it during typing. oops.

[Kaizen]

Bursts being unthrowable was filling me with infinite sadness.

 

You've made my day.