TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Let's not look at FRC through rose colored glasses. When the mechanic worked as intended, it worked beautifully, but there are definitely a fair share of overpowered FRCs and useless FRCs. The whole attitude of "let's bring back FRC, YRC is dumb," just comes off as old timer syndrome, in a way. The game is not going to magically be better if you take out YRCs and put FRCs back. And allowing YRC during hit or block stun is just, no. The mechanic seems powerful enough as it is.
White Man Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 The whole attitude of "let's bring back FRC, YRC is dumb," just comes off as old timer syndrome, in a way. The game is not going to magically be better if you take out YRCs and put FRCs back. And allowing YRC during hit or block stun is just, no. The mechanic seems powerful enough as it is. Another reason it sucks to see +R getting boxed up and put in the attic. Some people made very compelling arguments that the game had a good run (at least in Japan) and all that, and I don't disagree with them at all, but at the same time it's frustrating to see everyone flocking to Xrd and then saying, "Yeah, it's a pretty good game, but it'd be way better if it had [insert features and/or characters from GGXX]." If you're just going to piss all over Xrd because it doesn't have FRCs and your old main, then go play +R. Everybody wants something new, but nobody wants anything different.
TheRealBobMan Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 On the topic of difficult timing for offense... just because people are willing to put in the effort to do 1-frame links that they absolutely need to be able to do at high level doesn't mean that they should have to. One-frame links are unnecessary, and 2 frame cancel windows aren't necessary either. As an I-No main, I'm simultaneously sad that I'll lose a little of the prestige factor associated with playing a bat-shit hard character, and happy that I wont be losing as much because of frequent mistakes. Not everyone has the time to grind for 8 hours a day to be 99% consistent at difficult tactics. The one thing I don't like about YRC is that the "it happens when they're not in hit or block stun" doesn't seem elegant. It gets the job done and it's really simple, but it seems like an arbitrary rule. On the plus side, that creates some interesting escape opportunities during pressure... you could commit a whole 50% if you wanted to lock someone down, or leave a 1-frame gap as a frame trap and YRC off of it (EX: I-No doing airdash block pressure into j.P > VCL > YRC), which gives them the opportunity to escape with an invincible move, but saves you meter and traps most other actions because of the time slow. More player interaction is a good thing, so in the end I'm behind this. So why are people sad about the lack of FRCs again? One of the reasons they were cool compared to RCs before was that you could do them even on whiff... but YRC does that. With everything. Is it just the damage? The time slow on RCs lets you get into position for better follow ups, so you get more damage off of confirms that you otherwise would have. It also reduces the chances that you're going to mess up after committing the meter because you have a bigger window. Honestly, the guard gauge / RISC system and the tension pulse system are what make GG awesome, not the FRCs. We get meter for doing things other than landing normals, using specials, and instant blocking. This means we have more of it and it can be used for more meaningful decisions. Compare that to SF4 where all you really do is make the decision to do an EX move or FDC > Ultra, or save it for a round and use a Super. Then, GB/RISC is an elegant way of punishing people who turtle without punishing people who block correctly. I'm really surprised more games don't use a system like this, and instead prefer to put in unblockable moves rather than give everyone basic mixup ability. *Shrug*
ElvenShadow Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Yea… so… just wait until you get to actually play the game. The “bullet time” feels natural now since I am already so used to it. It doesn’t feel like it ruins the flow to me now. YRCs overall are a great addition. I thought FRC was an awesome mechanic, and when I originally talked to Pachi about a new GG game before this game was actually even in development, I said I would want them in even though he said it might be necessary to remove them because of difficulty for newer players. But now… I honestly don’t really miss them much. FRCs for the purpose of combo extenders, when you get right down to it, just make optimal combos more difficult to pull off and add more hits. FRCs used for setups/mixups/neutral game were cool to have, but now you can pretty much use them in that way for almost ANY move in the game! It just adds such a new layer of options, strategies and possibilities. The ONLY real thing that is lost with YRCs replacing FRCs is certain block strings that involved FRCs. It is a fair enough trade-off IMO. I see having YRCs over FRCs as allowing for more strategic situations and making combos easier. In a sense, landing a hit is more complex now but getting damage off of that earned hit is easier. Strategy over execution. I think this is a good thing overall. And don’t bring up the “fighting games are not chess” argument because I’m not going to that extreme at all. The game still has difficult combos and it’s not like it’s brain dead easy to play just because FRCs are out and we get some bullet-time. It’s a fresh experience and it is fun to play. Anything that revives the scene like this game has can’t be bad. Going to random arcades and actually finding comp instead of having to go to specific ones and specific times is so refreshing! A competitive game is only worth playing if competition for it exists. Otherwise, have fun playing the same 2 people all day or being a training mode warrior. The small flaws that the game has I’m sure will be improved in the next version of the Xrd series. For a first time effort, SIGN is a solid offering and a lot of fun.
TheRealBobMan Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 "FRCs used for setups/mixups/neutral game were cool to have, but now you can pretty much use them in that way for almost ANY move in the game! It just adds such a new layer of options, strategies and possibilities. The ONLY real thing that is lost with YRCs replacing FRCs is certain block strings that involved FRCs. It is a fair enough trade-off IMO." "I see having YRCs over FRCs as allowing for more strategic situations and making combos easier. In a sense, landing a hit is more complex now but getting damage off of that earned hit is easier. Strategy over execution." "A competitive game is only worth playing if competition for it exists." :yaaay: THANK YOU :yaaay: "And don’t bring up the “fighting games are not chess” argument because I’m not going to that extreme at all." Since it was brought up, I'm going to be a dick to all the chess fans and say that a well made fighting game is better than chess. Chess is solvable; fighting games are not when they're built right. One day chess will be solved and there wont be any reason to play it competitively unless you're caught up in nostalgia or something... you could pick it up and figure things out as a newblet when you have no exposure to or experience with other forms of competition, and you could use it as an example to stitch competitive concepts to in your mind a little easier, but ultimately it's a game that will end up being pointless to try to play to win, since you'll know how to force a win/loss/draw scenario. Not possible in games like GG. They move too fast to make the kind of perfect decisions that are a requirement for solving game states, and employ decision trees with "yomi layers" that sort of prevent optimal decisions. Sure, any given move could be the best move you can make per the situation, but in most cases that move has some sort of counter, even if the counter is something that would get the user owned 99% of the time. But anyway... yeah... Xrd stuff. Where did I-No's purple outfit go? I'm willing to bet that Koichi not stomping people consistently is at least 30% due to him not having that sexy outfit. Also, WTF is up with Fafnir? Even on non-CH it floorslides for 2 years into the corner for a Dloop? Is it unsafe on block or something? What about the hitbox? Is it easy to counter poke? It's still really slow to start up right?
youcanwonder Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Man I read some fantastic replies on this page lol. As I stated before the fact of being able to yrc when under pressure to try and get out of it sounds pretty spiffy. I can see people yrc in a burst just to get a grab...ino back dash yrc air dash (don't k ow if that wuld actually work but I'm sure if done correctly would look super sick lol) just gotta keep our minds open for the possibilities w the new system in place. someone explain to me bullet time (unless that's the danger time??) From all the stuff I've watched (but sol dominates it seems lol) there is alot of cool stuff happening. Frc's were nice and will be missed however w the way the yrc Rrc and prc Are being used, it does seem like it's gonna add more depth to the game. gg was always coo to me bc of the high pressure offense, the just defends to give u better recovery time to get you out of situations if done properly, the 1fr jumps, jump installs...I mean there is a ton of stuff that makes gg and brings fantastic ideas to the table. Daiske is tryin to bring a bigger crowd to the game so how do you go wrong w that. It maybe a little simpler to do yrcs...but when it gets in the hand of veteran players ..it's goin to be great and deadly. Look at how fab used them for pot. Oh look u jumped and when I was doin something..yrc let me grab you outa the air lol..too good.
youcanwonder Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 "FRCs used for setups/mixups/neutral game were cool to have, but now you can pretty much use them in that way for almost ANY move in the game! It just adds such a new layer of options, strategies and possibilities. The ONLY real thing that is lost with YRCs replacing FRCs is certain block strings that involved FRCs. It is a fair enough trade-off IMO." "I see having YRCs over FRCs as allowing for more strategic situations and making combos easier. In a sense, landing a hit is more complex now but getting damage off of that earned hit is easier. Strategy over execution." "A competitive game is only worth playing if competition for it exists." THANK YOU "And don’t bring up the “fighting games are not chess” argument because I’m not going to that extreme at all Lol...such a good statement thank you Bozac for stating this so nicely....thank you Bob for reposting this...and I'm goin to thank myself for reposting the reposted post....thank you Mario lol
ElvenShadow Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Mario, no prob. BTW, “bullet-time” is just the term people having been using to describe the time slow during RCs.
Destin Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Doesn't anyone know what they did to slow the pace of the game down as daisuke said?
BladeOfJustice7 Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Increase hit stun slightly, I think elven covered that in his initial impressions of the game, I would also say increasing the time it takes for characters to get up to their max run speed. it's why you don't see players barrier break on their dashes supposedly anymore. I'm sure there's more than just that.
ElvenShadow Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Yea, from playing the game this seems accurate, though I haven't read frame data really so I honestly don't know for sure. You can still FD cancel dash momentum though BTW. The whole FD system feels pretty much the same as always.
Clousephinat Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Well, I didn't like too the new RC at first and I was like "are you kidding me?...", but after seeing a lot of gameplays I truly believe is a good thing. Some people is maybe forgetting what's more important, Bullet Time is a great opportunity for new/begginers players, but ALSO for experienced players, I'm fairly sure you can still do a lot of great combos, even more than before as a matter of fact, this for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZNn5VvQ1ZGQ#t=2504 The whole picture is actually the same, YRC is still a useful mechanic for keeping the presure against your enemy and doing combos, and RRC is the same as before, a tool which is mainly use is for ensure you have defeated your opponent without allow him to react, and now with "It's not over yet" is even more rewarding of doing so at the risk of losing 50% of meter.
ElvenShadow Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Learned some new stuff. Seems like you can YRC out of stagger state. I'm pretty sure anyway but it might be restricted to a few frames later. Faust's 236236236HS full meter 8 item super doesn't seem to be able to be canceled into from normals.
Destin Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Increase hit stun slightly, I think elven covered that in his initial impressions of the game, I would also say increasing the time it takes for characters to get up to their max run speed. it's why you don't see players barrier break on their dashes supposedly anymore. I'm sure there's more than just that. And they said that they slowed down the pace for the bullet time. So I wonder what about the previous lower hitstop (hitstun is the frames the person is vulnerable while both chars are moving, hitstop is the frames where the game stops moving for both players when contact is made) and dash velocity made it not mesh well. Messing with the pace of a game is IMO one of the largest changes you can make, so I doubt it was done lightly.
king of heart Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 I still think that adding the FRC along with YRC will make everyone happy.
Destin Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Maybe in the next iteration in a year, for now I would prefer to see where this went. And I'm on board with just now, if they put FRC's back, 4f MINIMUM, I would take it more like 8f windows. Note: I have some of the better execution around when I'm in practice, it wouldn't really affect me. But I have tried to get people into this game and build communities, and then re: everything henkai said.
Clousephinat Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 I still think that adding the FRC along with YRC will make everyone happy. It wouldn't be fair to have both YRC and FRC to cost 25% of meter, YRC would be practically pointless then.
excelence Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Not exactly pointless, since frc is restricted to few moves, YRC will still have it purpose ... so yea, i hope they will eventually add it in the game.
Clousephinat Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 YRC is also restricted to some moves, otherwise Slayer would be a high tier character and Zato=ONE would be invincible. I'm sure ASW already thought about it, I don't think they are going to change it at this point.
Delrian Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 The game is not going to magically be better if you take out YRCs and put FRCs back. Agreed.
Skyheartxia Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Also, WTF is up with Fafnir? Even on non-CH it floorslides for 2 years into the corner for a Dloop? Is it unsafe on block or something? What about the hitbox? Is it easy to counter poke? It's still really slow to start up right? Fafnir is + on block, lol
excelence Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Looks, fairly slow for me, and on older gg a lot of character can low profile it.
Delrian Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Pretty sure it can't be cancelled into from normals as well.
Skyheartxia Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 That used to be untrue, is it true suddenly now? fafnir being safe? yeah thats an Xrd specific thing.
Recommended Posts