Soviet Bear Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 I doubt they'd implement it, but it would be a neat gimmick if Faust's donut replenished Sin's full stomach meter.
Henaki Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 I doubt they'd implement it, but it would be a neat gimmick if Faust's donut replenished Sin's full stomach meter. no, but it wouldnt be surprising if it gave some stomach meter
Hecatom Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 I thought Venom was up there, like mid-high mid. Though i haven't seen much of him latelyBut B is mid tier
Clousephinat Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 It's really fun to see how people was saying at first that Ram-chan seemed a bad character, and now almost everyone agrees that she's not only a good character, but even the best character of the game, LOL. Â Venom seems really good with his new overdrive, but only a few people play with him to begin with, so in the end... There we go again.
FinalDoomGuy Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 I've posted something similar before in the BB forum about grapplers being frustrating, it of course got ignored because blazblue forum lol anyway: You basically have three options towards grapplers: make a grappler that isn't frustrating at low levels of play (design well), have a shitty grappler (in terms of overall power), or have new players quit your game in droves. Â So let's try and narrow down why the first option is the best, and why the second happens a lot. Â Let's try and narrow down what is frustrating: Another player of perceived equal or lesser skill beating you, and losing to "random numbers", which is a different kind of losing to something that isn't perceived skill. In the first portion, grapplers are commonly easy to play because they have a very easy to understand and execute goal. Get close, toss a dude, do 1/4th of a lifebar. In this case, you don't need to know a combo, grabs are hard to avoid, and it's difficult to deal with the nuance of fighting a grappler up close. Basically the counterplay is keep him out, but the risk reward for him vs you is skewed in his favor because his goal is much easier to do. this is very common at low levels of play because well, if you can do a grab motion, which is easier than a real combo, you are probably better than the other guy. Since a grappler has an easy to achieve skill ceiling, this means that grapplers are basically more effective at equal skill removing all other equations. So yeah, if at low levels of play, if a dude has six queens in Chess. but then at high level play your boards are even, this is gonna SUCK for new players. Â The other part is the RNG. Losing to RNG sucks. Period. It feels like it's out of your control, and let's face it, we play video games because life is pretty much 80% out of our control, and 20% in. All of your choices in a video game matter which is empowering. When you subtract those choices. Then things get hairy. There's two forms of choice subtraction when fighting agrappler: things up close no longer work because a dude can just throw you out of what you're doing, which means your gameplan changes more dramatically. You might get new options even, but the subtraction of your obvious and reliable options feels bad. The second part of this is the "RNG" factor. Since a grappler, more than ANY other form of character, relies on double blind choices (rock paper scissors/guessing/mixups, however you wanna phrase it here), when you get hit, it feels like the other person guessed right (they did). So if they guess right and hit you, it feels worse (people also tend to remember bad over good in general which inflates this issue). Like, now you're all "oh god, he just GUESSED RIGHT, that wasn't skill, that wasn't him out chess-ing me". This creates the illusion that the other player isn't SMARTER than you, but LUCKIER. This problem is especially more interesting because the more you subtract the human element of fighting games (not being next to a person), the less it feels like you got out guessed and the more it feels like RNG. Â Anyway, so this leaves you with a design problem: You either make a not frustrating grappler. this means giving them a higher skill cap at lower levels of play. Basically, making basic stuff as hard to do, if not harder, than other characters. You can also just nerf your grappler (this is the easiest option arc sys opts for), or you can go with the final option: make a game more people quit early on. Â And before you go "well im not frustrated by potemkin/tager/zangief/insertgrapplerhere". That might be true for -you-. But to the -majority- of people, the reason they quit a game? Â Because they got very frustrated early on. Â I'd say that's spot on. I think Tager is halfway there to being a cool grappler with the magnetism and all, it's just that his grabs are so over-the-top that any actual good thing in his kit that isn't a grab gets nerfed for the next installment. Potemkin feels more cohesive to me (Not sure about Xrd, not in a position to play it).
shtkn Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I doubt they'd implement it, but it would be a neat gimmick if Faust's donut replenished Sin's full stomach meter. on those same lines, does sol's gunflame detontate faust's oil pool?
Koozebanian Fazoob Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Did they go overboard in the compensatory nerfs? Absolutely. My hope is that when they decide to do the first big rebalance (since so far there's only been small bugfixes and tweaks like Bedman's meter gain), they'll have a firm idea of exactly which things to give back to Pot, and what crazy new ideas they can give him (such as Trishula having a use at all). My wish list for the bare minimum is: - Heatgrab working as it does in +R (you really don't want AC tension gain back for this thing) - 5P hitting crouchers - 2S vacuum - Another +frame or two on 6K - j.H into ICPM as a regular air combo, not exclusive to RCs or Dust comboI think they're pretty obviously trying something new with Potemkin this go around, so I'd be fine with 2S Vaccuum not coming back. 6K was supposed to be the effective replacement for it, but unfortunately it's got too poor of a horizontal velocity to make it work most of the time. The slow startup, with the slow horizontal speed, with the increase in pushback this game, really makes it near impossible to use as a mid-screen pressure tool. Improving 6K forward velocity would make it so you can get combos/pressure with it at mid screen more reliably, but not effect his corner combos with it (which are already totally good).Heat Knuckle definitely needs something on the non-extend. I honestly am surprised they went back to the way it used to be for no reason, they finally got it right in ACPR.+Frames on 6K are not really controlled by 6K, they're controlled by Hammerbreak because you always 6K -> Hammerbreak on block. Thus to improve this move's SD, you'd need to either reduce the duration of Hammerbreak (yikes?), or increase the blockstun of 6K (which is already Level 5). I don't think this is really an issue at all though, it's already +3 or so SD.Absolutely agree about Trisula and ICPM. I think these are two moves Arc really need to give some love, they both seem Not Good.Trisula is a move that sound GREAT in theory. It's got a ton of upper body invincibility, and is projectile invincible, and has a huge vertical hitbox. You can even get an okay combo off it on CH sometimes. Unfortunately, the untech time is pretty horrible on regular hit, and the hitbox on it is bad. The move probably needs the horizontal range extended, and the untech time increased. If you could even do Trisula -> Heat or HPB reliably, that'd be pretty good.ICPM can combo from j.H from other setups than those you mentioned ... in theory. The problem is that the startup is slow, AND the hitbox is strange, so even in situations where you have enough frames to connect with it, the move just won't because the hitbox takes time to reach them. You could help fix this by having Potemkin start moving forward immediately on startup, or you could just decrease the startup, which would probably let you combo it off j.S as well which is totally cool. Increasing the YRC window would be nice too since it's strange that it's so short anyway.Also give PB more range. :I
redsilversnake Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 It's really fun to see how people was saying at first that Ram-chan seemed a bad character, and now almost everyone agrees that she's not only a good character, but even the best character of the game, LOL. I was one of those who thought she seemed worse than Potemkin. I felt that it was hard for her to gain momentum, and that even when she did, it was difficult to maintain that momentum. It wasn't until I saw...Kuni, I think it was, that I started thinking maybe the players in the footage coming out just weren't good ones who had explored her enough. Looks like that second guess may have been correct. Â And Henaki, that was a good write-up. Worthwhile food for thought on grapplers.
youcanwonder Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Man there have been some super long post the last couple of days lol
D.R.F. Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 speaking of characters that dont seem that good because of things take away i feel pretty bad for slayer and I-No players. their moveset just seems so lacking
DaiAndOh Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 It's really fun to see how people was saying at first that Ram-chan seemed a bad character, and now almost everyone agrees that she's not only a good character, but even the best character of the game, LOL. Venom seems really good with his new overdrive, but only a few people play with him to begin with, so in the end... There we go again. Bishop Run Out isn't that great. It's not reliable damage, and it eats up all your current balls (to power up, but not to the point where it's usually worth it). The only time it's been currently used effectively is to try to finish matches. It actually bounces a bit too much, so you can't use it to repeat your pressure, which would have made it a lot better imo. ^ I personally think dark angel is still better.I agree, but Dark Angel isn't that good this game either. YRC for Venom is too good, and even RC can be worth the meter in many situations. Dark Angel I heard doesn't build guard bar in this game, which atm I can't confirm or deny. But you'll notice Isamu and Fino aren't using it anymore in more recent vids.
Vulcan422 Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Still no playable Raven... All in due time. Console version is still fairly far away so there's plenty of time for surprises. Even after the initial release.
mynus Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 speaking of characters that dont seem that good because of things take away i feel pretty bad for slayer and I-No players. their moveset just seems so lacking  Taking away I-no's different note speeds was so unwarranted. Losing midscreen S dive juggle is sad as well. No clue why they would take things away from her when she already lost so many options and midscreen damage output due to losing FRC.  Sigh Arcsys....Sigh.
TeeJay Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Along with the Pot theory, perhaps they have a future plan and want to take things in different directions later. Instead of changing/replacing things piece by piece, they're starting raw and doing new things from there onward. Core mechanics> character specifics? It's less bizarre when the game is new. Perhaps we'll see a CT>CS type of change later on.  If that's good/bad design, idk but I suppose they have the experience. I still saw some Ino get a 25+ win streak in acho vid-- bodying/trolling everyone.Â
Fenrir Werwolf Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 You guys give too much importance to the tier list. In GG every chara can win, and tier list may affect only high level play. So, people can still win with pot, and I-no is still a strong chara Sent from my RM-914_eu_italy_292 using Tapatalk
White Man Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 You guys give too much importance to the tier list. In GG every chara can win, and tier list may affect only high level play. So, people can still win with pot, and I-no is still a strong chara  That was going to be my next question: How far apart are the top and bottom tiers in this game? I'm not too worried about who's the best/worst as long as everyone is viable.
ElvenShadow Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 IMO tiers are not all that far apart. There are some bad matchups (like Pot vs Ram is really bad for Pot) but I think this is one of the more balanced versions of GG.  Yea, Dai and Oh is spot on about Venom meter use. Almost no Venoms use supers. Its all about dat YRC. I play against FC fairly often since we both live in Gunma and I can't ever recall him using a super once the entire time I have played against him. I think Venom is solid though. He doesn't have the greatest damage but he certainly can still fuck you up. Just look at how much Face Guard Senpai (Isamu) was beasting at Pre Arc Fest tourney 2 at A-cho. I played him a bunch all weekend while I was there and while I did manage to get some games on him, it was really hard to do so and I lost to him in the tourney and he went on to win the whole thing.  As for I-no, I think she is still at least decent. She may not be the best version of I-no but she is by no means weak. I'm also surprised that people think Bedman is that low. Lox's Bedman is sick as hell! When I went to Kansai for the same tourney, he was also messing me up. Pretty much him and Isamu were the 2 players I was having the most trouble with and I was doing really well against most other people, and they both were using B tier.    I think this is one of those games where you can just pick who you like and if you really learn matchups you can stand a chance with any character honestly.
FKGunBlaze Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I think this is one of those games where you can just pick who you like and if you really learn matchups you can stand a chance with any character honestly. My hopes for Bedman have increased substantially.
JCraile Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 That was going to be my next question: How far apart are the top and bottom tiers in this game? I'm not too worried about who's the best/worst as long as everyone is viable. Recent matchup chart shows Venom (character usage: 12th place, 4.56%) having a score of 72.5 and Millia (character usage: 3rd place, 7.77%) having 58.5, the average is 65. mirrors not included.  Based on this scroll at 5:29 - 5:39. Maybe this can help.
4r5 Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 you can see the matchup chart anytime, here http://ggxrd.com/pg/diagram_view.php
DaiAndOh Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Yea, Dai and Oh is spot on about Venom meter use. Almost no Venoms use supers. Its all about dat YRC. I play against FC fairly often since we both live in Gunma and I can't ever recall him using a super once the entire time I have played against him. I think Venom is solid though. He doesn't have the greatest damage but he certainly can still fuck you up. Just look at how much Face Guard Senpai (Isamu) was beasting at Pre Arc Fest tourney 2 at A-cho. I played him a bunch all weekend while I was there and while I did manage to get some games on him, it was really hard to do so and I lost to him in the tourney and he went on to win the whole thing.You know it's a bad day for Venom's supers when the most common one is Red Hail, to try to add killing damage to air combos....
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