[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[nyyyyy]

I don't see how it's removing some of the execution barrier makes the character duller. It would just mean the character was dull to begin with, and was just harder to use.

Well, her gameplan certainly was. Or do you disagree on that part?

 

The reason why it makes a character duller is because of the consistency you can pull of the setups. If its easier to perform certain things, the risk reward decreases. Meaning: You will always go for X because the probability of you dropping it is lower than it used to be. Players will always drop combos, even in high level play. You can observe it in almost any fighting game. So reducing the required dexterity has a pretty big impact on how dull a character (that is almost exclusively execution) is.

[TheRealBobMan]

It's already been covered by several people, but I-No being made easier is largely the result of the global changes to the game's cancel system, and is also helped by HCL/VCL being auto jump installed.  Honestly, Jump Install really didn't need to be a thing as it just made stuff harder, though I-No's 2S no longer hitting low makes sense given that she could carry a JI through hover dash or other methods and do unprorated damage off of a 1/3 screen low at max range in AC/+R (and 2S had it's recovery reduced and range extended in +R), which was ****ing bonkers.  If she had that built in now (didn't have the restriction of having to carry a JI through something else since you can't jump cancel 2S), it'd be really scary.

 

 

The problem is that all there was to I-No was her execution. Her gameplan is pretty straight forward and I dont really see how that changed/changes with Xrd, meaning that if you take away her execution, or to some extend reduce the difficulty, the character becomes significantly duller. Especially considering that execution is all I-No really had.

 

All I saw I-Nos do to this point is spawn a note and go for a low/high mixup. Nothing changed, its just easier. If they had at least adjusted her gameplan by making dives better crossup tools or something, I could understand the changes. But as it stands they didnt do anything else but to remove the challenging part.

 

Uh...  while playing a character that has difficult execution is fun for various reasons, that's a really strange outlook.  Yeah, it can be more boring to play a character if their execution is taken down a notch...  Sol looks a little boring to play now that he's able to spam j.D in the corner for combos again, but there's still some flashy stuff with Fafnir, Bandit Bringer, Kudakero, and all of the setups that come from adding RC time slow to the mix.

 

I don't know what to make of the "execution is all I-No really had" statement.  Yeah, I've lost some interest because of the changes to her tool set.  HCL doesn't go as far across the screen to compensate for the simplified input, but it has the Derivative follow-up that gives knockdown in many more places, which is a big help.  They took one of her notes away, so she doesn't have the zoning games that come from having 2 different speeds, but she picked up an aerial command throw.  Honestly, one of my favorite things about playing I-No was her air throw range in AC, since I love to air throw people.  I'll trade the ability to combo for getting a good instant airthrow back + the new command throw that allows follow ups (can do it out of an airdash, from the ground, etc).  Her S dive now knocks down, which I don't like, and Kdive isn't a starter on CH anymore either, so that sucks.  Her f.S isn't a utility/pressure move anymore (as far as we know).  STBT kinda sucks now since even if you use it for what it's good for (going under things), you don't get very much for it (stagger for a reset with S version even on CH and a slight launch with H version).  They also nerfed her reversal super and it looks like the mike stand in her 6H is shorter which affects the range of the arc.  Then you consider VCL YRC being an amazing oki tool and it seems like it could potentially be an optimum play whenever you have the meter to spend on it, whereas before you might use f.S, regular note, late note FRC, or a simple safe jump.

 

I guess you're just looking at the surface of her game plan (yomi layer zero).  Her neutral game was interesting because her hitboxes suck and lose to everything, even if her pokes are actually good in very specific circumstances.  Being able to jump out of the way and set up a combo with a dive was great, STBT(S) was great for fishing for counter hits even though it's easy to punish if you use it wrong, f.S controlled space well, 6H was a really fun risky AA/poke tool, HCL could threaten players that tried to set up at the wrong range, and her air throw was pretty threatening too before +R.  You could even ghetto reversal against lows with VCL.  Her move set made for a really fun neutral game, even if your goal was just to knock them down so you could shoot a note and run her strong mixup tools.  Hell, even matchups like vs May were fun because while it was a pain dealing with her superior hitboxes and getting stunned off of one CH, you could win off of one knockdown.

 

So yeah, I'll miss doing stuff like reversal VCL > FRC Sdive > 5K > HCL 6FRC6 > FFVCL, but I'm also just as happy that I wont drop it because I don't have the time to practice.  Less flash isn't very cool, but it's not a deal breaker.  If anything, the time I had to spend to practice I-No to play her at barely above the scrub level can now go into learning more characters, or being less of a scrub with her.  I might switch mains depending on how her neutral game changes (if it feels too formulaic), but her air throw being good again and the new air command throw might just sell me on continuing to play her.  The feeling of scaring the other player into not teching or bursting is one of the greatest joys when playing this game.

 

Honestly, at high level play you'll barely be making mistakes, and the enjoyment you get out of putting forth the effort to not make mistakes is going to vary from player to player.  The majority of us play to read the other player, not to play training mode with hard combos.  Also, I think every character wants to gain the initiative in some form and go for a high/low/throw or frame trap.  That's not I-No exclusive.  I-No was just good at the high/low part.

[entnervt]

A character is suddenly accessible for a larger bunch of players and that's going to make a character duller? That's the elitist attitude the GG community needs to stay small.

[king of heart]

A character is suddenly accessible for a larger bunch of players and that's going to make a character duller? That's the elitist attitude the GG community needs to stay small.

Well I did try to play her before and that shit was really hard i barley did it once only in training mode.

It's definitely something that required months of daily training to get it on Trining mode and maybe years to get it constant in matches .

I can understand if some are being salty about that.

Also nobody here thinks they are elites you are the one who is underestimating yourself.

[o Nereus o]

Well I did try to play her before and that shit was really hard i barley did it once only in training mode.

It's definitely something that required months of daily training to get it on Trining mode and maybe years to get it constant in matches .

I can understand if some are being salty about that.

Also nobody here thinks they are elites you are the one who is underestimating yourself.

I can honestly see where he's coming from... even if it's not true here in the forums we really don't need this type of mentality if we want GG to grow. 

 

There's too many people who have this mindset to where it's like  "Oh.. this character is easy to use... pick someone harder scrub!". 

 

We don't need that...

[entnervt]

What I meant with elites is considering a char/game dull/not dull on the basis of how hard the execution is. That's simply wrong and the kind of behaviour that makes people keeping their distance to the GG community, even if they're interested in GG.

[Mumm-Ra]

If you play a character just because you want to break your wrists several times during a BnB then you're playing the game wrong, any game.

 

Yeah it's cool to see I-no combos or E. Ryu loops or whatever, but at the end of the day, combos at high level play aren't everything, it's just something you are required to do, otherwise you get blown out. I appreciate hit-confiming and footsies way more than being able to do that one combo that requires you to have bonitis to pull out.

 

I-no's combos were way too ridiculous too, like, life's too short for that shit, so I welcome easier combo execution anytime unless it's braindead stuff. Too bad about I-no vets losing their combo though, I do understand your pain.

[Leopold]

I agree with everybody who is in favor of easier execution. By no means she's going to be brain dead like Marvel (sorry for my hypocrisy). But if the game is going to grow if it means more people are going to play I-No then so be it. That attitude is solely on pride and elitism and will only hurt the game itself.  

[YoYoCheese]

A fighting game should never be more difficult than it absolutely needs to be and hard-to-use characters should get their difficulty from the necessities of their unique mechanics (puppet characters, for instance) rather than arbitrary execution barriers.

[nyyyyy]

What I meant with elites is considering a char/game dull/not dull on the basis of how hard the execution is. That's simply wrong and the kind of behaviour that makes people keeping their distance to the GG community, even if they're interested in GG.

 

Theres a gigantic difference between something being duller than it used to be and being dull altogether. A guy who 6'4 isnt small either, yet he's smaller than a guy whos 6'5. People need to stop to interpret things in a way that it can be used to prove their point. 

 

Let alone that I dont really get where youre coming from with this assumption that elitism keeps out people. Calling certain things easy is incredibly common in any community. Be that MMORPGs, MOBAs or competitive games in general. Every community has its fair share of people who call you out for using X and not using Y instead. If a person gives a shit about whether other people call him cheap then he didnt understand that a competitive game isnt about appealing to your opponent, but to beat him. Hell, there are people who shit talk you in Counter Strike for using the AWP.

 

So unless you play something that is completely broken and results in people refusing to play against you (which wont stay broken for long because we can balance patch nowadays) then theres not much of a reason to care.

 

edit: Also, I think you misunderstand why franchises such as Guilty Gear are niche. First, the entire genre is. Second, the game looked outdated. This might not be a problem to people who value gameplay over visuals, but its one of the central things that the casual crowd cares about. It needs to have at least a certain appeal to it for people to actually care. The games look outdated, so are their features (no tutorial, inaccessible data and tech, online is a chore), so it obviously is almost impossible to bring in a lot of people. If you dislike the look of a product you will probably not even bother looking into its mechanics/use. A good example for that is the success of companies such as Apple or Zara.

 

Your game doesnt need to be a graphical revolution and use 80k+ polygons per model. But it should at least try to look like the industry standard. Another thing that fighting games generally fail to do. BlazBlue for example looks terrible (pixelated HD sprites). It doesnt matter if the artstyle is decent (I dont even think it is), it still looks outdated. The same applies for KOF and many other games. The only sprite game that matches a certain standard is Skullgirls. The sprites are sleek, HD and look really good. Which lead to many people buying it. The fact that the gameplay and roster were rather meh lead to its downfall.

 

With Xrd the franchise (for the first time) gets rid of these problems. The title doesnt look outdated anymore. Yet, it still is an anime fighter, which generally appeals way less to westerners than lets say a game that focuses on fighting as Wolverine. 

 

All I am saying is that elitism is not what keeps the community small. Its the least of our problem. Its everything combined (and probably the fact that fighting games shut out the most competitive community in gaming, which are PC players). The fact that to this day fighting games still require you to do something that no other genre does is just the cherry on top. Leaving the house takes many out of their comfort zone and I can understand why. Local communities are far from being common in a lot of areas. And until this changes, a proper online environment is established and tournaments can comfortably held via net (which will probably never happen) the genre will always stay niche. It's as simple as that.

[TD]

ino was the hardest vg char I ever played ever. and then seeing koichi doing half the shit he did... he needs to open up his own badass musical dojo or something. teach us the way of lyrics and underboob.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

 Yeah, it can be more boring to play a character if their execution is taken down a notch...  Sol looks a little boring to play now that he's able to spam j.D in the corner for combos again, but there's still some flashy stuff with Fafnir, Bandit Bringer, Kudakero, and all of the setups that come from adding RC time slow to the mix.

 

As an aside, I actually think this version of Sol is much more fun than Slash and AC era versions. I could never really get into Sidewinder combos, and I feel like his combos in Xrd have more variety. Plus Sidewinder was pretty much useless outside of combos. I like the addition of Kudakero, probably the most functional special move he's gotten in a long time. I've also always really liked Dustloops, and they're not only tricky to do in this version, but there's also a ton of overall combo variety with them. Plus his character design benefits heavily from the new RC system.

[king of heart]

ino was the hardest vg char I ever played ever. and then seeing koichi doing half the shit he did... he needs to open up his own badass musical dojo or something. teach us the way of lyrics and underboob.

This.

I tried playing I-No and i couldn't because if the execution barrier was so high.

Especially she wasn't crazy rewarding like Eddie.

It's just some people try hard to become special just like Koichi did.

I am just explaining that it's not about pride or elitism.

Also correct me if I am wrong but i don't remember I-No reaching a Major final's until this year's Arc Revo with Hasegwa which is a good sign IMO.

BTW I don't see any post that complains about I-No being watered down.

So why all the drama ?

[TeeJay]

i would welcome some things being easier as I'm dealing with neuropathy issues. The other day I could only eat about 2-3 pieces of sushi before holding the chopsticks became nearly impossible. Screw instant jaguar kicks. I also have task-specific focal dystonia so that's another thing in itself. I have no idea how Brolylegs does the things he does. I salute that guy; he also has a nice sense of humor. 

 

That being said, I like those execution specialist characters too. It's cool seeing Ogawa, Koichi, Fino, Shounen or whomever just doing work. I wanna see some Elfelt player who is just nasty with the rifle and bodying people on reaction from full screen. It's also cool seeing people like Ruu who can just do stuff consistently that no one else is doing-- having one individual potentially playing a character in a way that no one else does is pretty intriguing and few games can say that. 

 

What are people's thoughts on the Sin gameplay based on the Gamestartasia Xrd 3v3 finals. I imagine we're gonna have to block yolo Ride the Lightning crossups on netplay. I wonder if their are ways to fake the crossup. 

 

Also Ign is spreading news on ps3 stick compatibility: http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/10/27/skullgirls-encore-developer-creates-ps3-to-ps4-controller-drivers. How will this affect people's expectations? Shoutouts to a naughty dog programmer helping to do the coding. 

[nyyyyy]

Also Ign is spreading news on ps3 stick compatibility: http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/10/27/skullgirls-encore-developer-creates-ps3-to-ps4-controller-drivers. How will this affect people's expectations? Shoutouts to a naughty dog programmer helping to do the coding. 

 

I doubt that it will change anything. I cant see someone buying a PS4 for Xrd alone, so sticks being compatible wont change much. The PS4 simply doesn't have any fighting game title as of now. So unless you already own one, in which case you probably also own a compatible stick, this probably won't have much impact.

 

But it's nice that someone finally bothers with the topic. As soon as the system finally has games to play it might become relevant. Correct me if I am mistaken but isn't it usually up to the developer of a game to provide support for older peripherals or not? If that's the case then the fact that ArcSys/Aksys didn't bother to design one further strengthens my theory.

[TeeJay]

I'm don't think it would even be a thing for Xrd unless that patch it in. So I guess I meant expectations regarding the other way around.

[DaiAndOh]

I doubt that it will change anything. I cant see someone buying a PS4 for Xrd alone, so sticks being compatible wont change much. The PS4 simply doesn't have any fighting game title as of now. So unless you already own one, in which case you probably also own a compatible stick, this probably won't have much impact.

 

But it's nice that someone finally bothers with the topic. As soon as the system finally has games to play it might become relevant. Correct me if I am mistaken but isn't it usually up to the developer of a game to provide support for older peripherals or not? If that's the case then the fact that ArcSys/Aksys didn't bother to design one further strengthens my theory.

 

It is.

But it isn't relevant for ASW to make one when the game is PS3 and PS4. Get the version you have a stick for basically, that's not a problem.

Now if Xrd 2 or whatever is on PS4 only....well either I hope they do it or PS4 stick prices drop in that time...

[Clousephinat]

I think that most people are just afraid of her 6FRC6 and that's really all. Other than that, her normals have always been easily to play with, especially in +R in which you have f.S with better frame recovery, 2D with better range and c.S being more easy to combo with, and yeah, while before there were only like only 2 I-No players in a tournament like the most (though I think there were quite of people playing with her in Slash also), after +R being released, there were more people willing to play with her, I think it was the first time for 2Rio for example, since I don't remember seeing him playing with her in previous entries, could be wrong though.

 

So yeah, stop thinking "oh goddammit, I can't be like Koichi, I will never be a good I-No player", first of all is just really stupid to want to play exactly as it does other people, that's like saying you don't want to improve for yourself and try learning new combos since you are only imitating the work of another person (don't get this wrong, is perfectly normal that someone is willing to learn a character after watching other people playing with X, I'm not denying that), and it's not like 6FRC6 is equal to EVERYTHING in I-No's playstyle, Xrd itself is the prove, even with people that now must of them are just using always the same stuff since there's no much of it than that, some people are still winning some matches... Though yeah, that's one of the things that I don't like about her now, you're not going to use Dives much as before since now are only useful in the corner (except P Dive with a JI or after the command throw), STBT with stagger is useless now, going then to use 2K>2S>2HS>HCL or 2K>2HS>2D>HCL instead, 6P>f.S unlike in #R which it was useful since 6P>5HS wasn't always reliable, now is just almost as useless as Bridget j.D in the same game, then again, while it pains me to say it, I-No is indeed not that fun to play as before if you're restricted to play now with pretty always the same stuff, while on the contrary some characters like May have improved a lot compared to previous releases, so the it's just a new game to appeal beginners, new mechanics and stuff, is not an excuse at all.

 

But anyway, just wanted to point again that FRCs are not the end of the world if you can't always do it, you can still play pretty well with someone like her without using 6FRC6 most of the time if you can offer more than just that, strategy in battle will always be the most important thing in fighting games no matter the character you play with (and earning meter is not free, after all).

 

EDIT: Ah, also... I don't see what's the issue with I-No's inputs at all, people can do Tyrant Rave, Ride the Lightning and other stuff right? Why you wouldn't be able to do the the same with HCL/VCL before Xrd then?

[comoesa]

Really going to miss Baiken's weird Tatami zoning and pressure.

[Coffeeling]

Well I did try to play her before and that shit was really hard i barley did it once only in training mode.

It's definitely something that required months of daily training to get it on Trining mode and maybe years to get it constant in matches .

I can understand if some are being salty about that.

Also nobody here thinks they are elites you are the one who is underestimating yourself.

 

Some people just genuinely enjoy doing hard stuff. I dislike links a ton, Kayin loves hitting a bunch of hard links in a row. People are different. IMO it's a good idea to make an approachable game that's simple to start playing, that has most characters be not unnecessarily hard, and then have a handful of "Hard Mode" characters for people who just love doing difficult stuff.

[heavymetalmixer]

A fighting game should never be more difficult than it absolutely needs to be and hard-to-use characters should get their difficulty from the necessities of their unique mechanics (puppet characters, for instance) rather than arbitrary execution barriers.

 

The main reason why P4U1 and P4U2 are so popular.

[XXXDC]

 Yeah, it can be more boring to play a character if their execution is taken down a notch...  Sol looks a little boring to play now that he's able to spam j.D in the corner for combos again

In AC/ACR all he does is spam sidewinder loops, why? because despite having multiple combo routes, people will always go for the same boring optimal stuff.

 

Kinda miss old times before the 'youtubeExplosion' when people actually developed their own playstyles and combo routes, now all you need to do is go and copy-paste the best playstyle, and if you don't do it then "omg you're playing your character wrong!!!". Maybe that's why I-no players want to be like Koichi, and if they can't get close to Koichi's style then they just give up, because "that's not how she is supposed to be played".

 

 

 

edit: Also, I think... -snip

It was ok until that last paragraph... but i guess this is not the place for that kind of discussion.

[destruction_adv]

 

In AC/ACR all he does is spam sidewinder loops, why? because despite having multiple combo routes, people will always go for the same boring optimal stuff.

That's kind of because "optimal" means objectively better than "sub-optimal" why would someone handicap themselves if they could get the optimal routes to work? Especially someone like me who doesn't think combos are fun to do and are a means to an end (more damage/corner carry)

[XXXDC]

That's kind of because "optimal" means objectively better than "sub-optimal" why would someone handicap themselves if they could get the optimal routes to work? Especially someone like me who doesn't think combos are fun to do and are a means to an end (more damage/corner carry)

Yes, i never said otherwise. And "optimal" leads to everybody-plays-exactly-the-same. Every Sol is almost the same to some extent, and if he happens to play differently then he is a yolo-badguy or just a troll-sol.

 

Edit: you can already see the pattern in Xrd.

[TheRealBobMan]

 

In AC/ACR all he does is spam sidewinder loops, why? because despite having multiple combo routes, people will always go for the same boring optimal stuff.

 

Trading execution difficulty for strategic difficulty.  Instead of having a damage combo that works anywhere meterlessly, he has to figure out how to push you into the corner now to do damage, which sometimes involves meter management.  Boring to some, cool to others.

 

 

EDIT: Ah, also... I don't see what's the issue with I-No's inputs at all, people can do Tyrant Rave, Ride the Lightning and other stuff right? Why you wouldn't be able to do the the same with HCL/VCL before Xrd then?

 

It was mentioned before, but the issue is that you're stringing multiple actions with tiny windows together.  Doing the jump installed 632146 input is the easy part.  Doing the 2 frame FRC and buffering a dash within 4 frames of the FRC happening, then doing a character/spacing dependent link out of the airdash to get the follow up is the hard part.  There are 3-4 moments where you can bungle the input, and this input is used frequently for her to be able to confirm combos and corner push.  It's her high damage option, prior to +R's FBdive and air recovery VCL it was her corner push option (otherwise you had 6P > 5H > IAD j.K, which is a two frame link if you don't bungle the IAD), and it was her main linker off of starters like STBT and Sdive out of the corner.  It was also frequently used to follow up STBT in combos early in a round (6P > STBT > 5K > HCL), which was done since STBT builds a big chunk of meter (often enough for the FRC).